Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Recently I've been reading The Prince by Machavelli. It's basically a book how to be a perfect leader that understands statecraft and, above all, the art of war. I couldn't help my mind not slipping towards Tywin when the characteristic of this perfect prince were put forward. Every point, from destroying one's enemy utterly (like Tywin's honor to House Reyne), or inflicting all the evils together in one day (King's Landing and Targaryen murders), and not perpetually. Being feared more than being loved, yet not hated. Basically Tywin did everything right to secure the throne and prompt kingdom in prosperity. Maybe only mistreating his son was wrong, and how Tyrion reacted could not be foreseen. According to Machiavelli, perfect prince would be Cesare Borgia who could tie the whole of Italy together. But he died prematurely due to disease. I think in many ways, there is a link between Tywin and Cesare Borgia. I just can't seem to get over Tywin doing everything right to just cause and being deprived of fruits of his labour is such a shitty way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I mostly agree. GRRM has repeatedly said in interviews that bad men can be good kings, and while Tywin never wore a crown I do believe he was the most politically effective and skilled lord we have seen in the series I just can't seem to get over Tywin doing everything right to just cause and being deprived of fruits of his labour is such a shitty way. ^Can't agree with this part though. Tywin did not care about justice except for PR purposes (which is good politics - look how little support Stannis has earned with his commitment to "justice") and he brought his death on himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Recently I've been reading The Prince by Machavelli. It's basically a book how to be a perfect leader that understands statecraft and, above all, the art of war. I couldn't help my mind not slipping towards Tywin when the characteristic of this perfect prince were put forward. Every point, from destroying one's enemy utterly (like Tywin's honor to House Reyne), or inflicting all the evils together in one day (King's Landing and Targaryen murders), and not perpetually. Being feared more than being loved, yet not hated. Basically Tywin did everything right to secure the throne and prompt kingdom in prosperity. Maybe only mistreating his son was wrong, and how Tyrion reacted could not be foreseen. According to Machiavelli, perfect prince would be Cesare Borgia who could tie the whole of Italy together. But he died prematurely due to disease. I think in many ways, there is a link between Tywin and Cesare Borgia. I just can't seem to get over Tywin doing everything right to just cause and being deprived of fruits of his labour is such a shitty way. And yet many are fall for this idea that The Prince is just about power politics. The man was very much in favor of the prince turning his domain into that of a republic. And rather, Tywin made a fatal flaw according to Machiavelli thought, which is very much a rebuke from GRRM's depiction of Tywin's end. While it is better to be feared than loved one should never incite hatred in their enemies and subjects unless they wish to see themselves undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan The Average Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I just can't seem to get over Tywin doing everything right to just cause and being deprived of fruits of his labour is such a shitty way. :shocked:... wait a second, was that a brilliant pun or am I just imagining things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynned Lannistark Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Tywin does resemble a Machiavellian prince but his is not perfect .I always thought he had a weakness in over vindictiveness getting him into trouble he could have avoided.But mostly he does good political moves. His failure is not being able to leave anyone to continue his legacy. Its hard to say he did not enjoy the fruits of his labour - being grandfather to kings, and the richest and most powerful man in the kingdom.... BTW, he seems to be much more successful as a ruler than Borgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I mostly agree. GRRM has repeatedly said in interviews that bad men can be good kings, and while Tywin never wore a crown I do believe he was the most politically effective and skilled lord we have seen in the series Yeah, but have you looked into Martin's face when he said that Augustus was considered a great king? I think he'd like us to seriously think about how power works and our own responsibility and agency, there are a lot of groundbreaking philosophical works that influenced TSoIaF and many are referenced. Platon, The Republic Dante, The Devine Comedy Machiavelli, The Prince Hobbes, Leviathan Rousseau, Discourse on Inequality Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zaratustra Sartre, The Wall, The Flies, No Exit, In the Mesh, Dirty Hands, ... And many more. I think that apart from writing an entertaining fantasy series, Martin wants us to critically consider how power works. He's not trying to make us agree with any of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 PR and power politics can be considered reasonable in the Prince or even Westeros Hand. It is quite hard to secure the throne by not doing good PR and power politics, to not vindicate those who harmed you in order to justify one's own sturdiness and greatness, the superiority of a leader that is needed for his people to consider of him more than just a man, and for nobles to respect him. In current Westeros scenario, the kingdom is in need of a great leader, not necessarily a popular one (I think 'popular' is sometimes thought as 'good').Effective and competent leader, being harsh and hard out of necessity not out of his own accord and count.Tywin stoke that note - he was feared, but prized as great leader (20 years Hand to Mad Aerys), he did what was necessary for the good of his (royal) family. Securing the throne, giving it a competent leadership and make certain of perpetually good leadership via good heredetary line is surely a way to bring the milk and honey to Westeros. In his absence, I think Stannis might be best candidate to continue stroking that note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 :shocked:... wait a second, was that a brilliant pun or am I just imagining things? Just some toilet humor. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not to mention that Eddard thinks of Tywin as "both a fox and a lion".You could not make it more explicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant snake Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I guess the Cesare Borgia to Tywin parallel works. Both were the most feared soldier of their day, they were both vain, both were unscrupulous and ruthless, one was betrayed by his own men (repeatedly) and the other was betrayed by his son. The only thing Tywin doesn't have to go with it all is syphilis, or at least we would think. But neither is the ideal prince at the end of the day. Whoever ends up winning, through cunning and soldierly virtues, will be the Westeros equivalent of Cosimo de Medici, who was the proven ideal prince of his day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alternis Dim Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I couldn't help my mind not slipping towards Tywin when the characteristic of this perfect prince were put forward. Every point, from destroying one's enemy utterly (like Tywin's honor to House Reyne), or inflicting all the evils together in one day (King's Landing and Targaryen murders), and not perpetually. Being feared more than being loved, yet not hated. I think Tywin embodies some of the qualities of the perfect machiavellian prince, but not all of them. Machiavelli believed that, ideally, the prince should be both loved and feared, but Tywin didn't even attempt to be loved, he didn't care about what other people thought of him. Machiavelli also advised the prince to avoid hate at all costs, something Tywin didn't do at all. Actions like the murder of Elia (not her children's), or the gang rape of Tysha were cruel, spiteful, unnecessary, and led directly to his death. Tywin died because he was not a true machiavellian prince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not to mention that Eddard thinks of Tywin as "both a fox and a lion". You could not make it more explicit. Oh, a nice catch! :cheers: On another note, Genna said that Tyrion was Tywin's son. That would mean Tyrion is another Prince, maybe. But he is much more reactionary than Tywin, having emotions behind some of his decisions (like killing Tywin). And I don't think Machavelli would approve of this little fellow whoring and drinking. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 I think Tywin embodies some of the qualities of the perfect machiavellian prince, but not all of them. Machiavelli believed that, ideally, the prince should be both loved and feared, but Tywin didn't even attempt to be loved, he didn't care about what other people thought of him. Machiavelli also advised the prince to avoid hate at all costs, something Tywin didn't do at all. Actions like the murder of Elia (not her children's), or the gang rape of Tysha were cruel, spiteful, unnecessary, and led directly to his death. Tywin died because he was not a true machiavellian prince Machiavelli says it's best to be loved and feared, and if that's not possible, than being feared is the way to go. Tywin understands this very well seeing his father who wanted to be loved, but turned out vain and laughed at by his subjects. Westeros is a hostile environment and fear keeps people in check much more than love. He's also in for the long run. To put in people minds the fear and respect of the Lannisters is instrumental for prolonged management of the realm. As oppose to let's say Robb who is loved by the people since he was winning battles. Tywin understands fear is much more effective for perpetual keeping of the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not to mention that the Sinigaglia massacre by Cesare Borgia is quite similar to the Red Wedding. (And yes, I know it's mainly based on the Black Dinner, but it can also be both) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Tywin would like to think of himself as The Prince. But, he trips himself up through his spite and vindictiveness. Had he not ordered the gang-rape of Tysha, his son would not have killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron's Black Eye Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Tywin would like to think of himself as The Prince. But, he trips himself up through his spite and vindictiveness. Had he not ordered the gang-rape of Tysha, his son would not have killed him. I think he didn't act out of emotion but of function. He, as every sound Lord dad, wanted to teach his such a valiable lesson. 'Look, she is an ordinary whore, and you are Lannister!' It is in Prince view wrong for his son to merry a common; respect of House Lannister was at risk. Albeit it is true Tywin has a thing about dealing with whore's, given his fathers mistress with his mom's jewels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 To be fair I think the whole Tysha debacle was the only real mistake Tywin made (or could had handled it a lot better). Though I am not sure how much of a Princely duty it is to educate your children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alternis Dim Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Machiavelli says it's best to be loved and feared, and if that's not possible, than being feared is the way to go. Tywin understands this very well seeing his father who wanted to be loved, but turned out vain and laughed at by his subjects. Machiavelli also suggested to avoid being hated, in order to not to be betrayed by your own men, which is exactly what happened to Tywin. He saw his father's weakness, but to avoid becoming like him, he made the opposite mistake. If he wanted to teach his son a lesson, he could have handled it a lot better. For example, he could have disinherited him. If she left him, Tyrion would have understood that she loved him just for his money and name. If she didn't, Tyrion is happy and Tywin doesn't have to worry about his deformed son anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not to mention that Eddard thinks of Tywin as "both a fox and a lion". You could not make it more explicit. Yes, I noticed that as well, was reasonably sure it was direct reference to the Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 And yet many are fall for this idea that The Prince is just about power politics. The man was very much in favor of the prince turning his domain into that of a republic. And rather, Tywin made a fatal flaw according to Machiavelli thought, which is very much a rebuke from GRRM's depiction of Tywin's end. While it is better to be feared than loved one should never incite hatred in their enemies and subjects unless they wish to see themselves undone. And he could not foresee his son to be freed and bein led to his private rooms via a secret tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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