Who did lyanna stark really love?

[GrammarYatzy]

Lyanna loved herself first and foremost. Forsook the kingdom all for her own lust

This is probably true. but she was very young AND a girl so I have a harder time faulting her too much compared to faulting Rhaegar

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Jon, everyone else comes in second to him.

^this, so much this.

Bryanfury, on 23 Jan 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

Lyanna loved herself first and foremost. Forsook the kingdom all for her own lust

^this too. She was a willful teen girl just coming into her power

[Annara Snow]

^this, so much this.

Bryanfury, on 23 Jan 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

Lyanna loved herself first and foremost. Forsook the kingdom all for her own lust

^this too. She was a willful teen girl just coming into her power

All women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men. Their evil fornications are what ruins the kingdoms! They must be kept in check, and controlled so they don't indulge in their lusts, but fulfill their natural role as dutiful wives (preferably to a man they don't like, so no lust on their part would be involved) and broodmares mothers. , or else we are damned, daaaaaaaaamned, I say! :tantrum: If that doesn't work, a punishment is in order :spank: - a Walk of Shame or two is not a bad solution.

[TimJames]

While Lyanna didn't know Robert well enough to love him, I do not at all think she hated or despised him. I think that had Lyanna lived and went on to marry Robert, they would have been happy together would have at the very least gotten along, though it is possible that she might have come to love Robert as Catelyn came to love Eddard.

One thing is clear, she did not love Rhaegar. I am convinced that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, because if he's doing it all for a prophecy than do you really think he'd accept "no" for an answer? And just because he is charismatic does not mean he can not be a rapist: most times monsters appear outwardly like regular people. Even if he bothered to ask first, I don't think Lyanna would agree. Even is she didn't know it would cause a civil war, she must have known it would mean turning her back on her family (which she wouldn't have wanted to have done, given that she must have had a good relationship with Eddard otherwise he wouldn't have missed her when she died).

[Annara Snow]

While Lyanna didn't know Robert well enough to love him, I do not at all think she hated or despised him. I think that had Lyanna lived and went on to marry Robert, they would have been happy together would have at the very least gotten along, though it is possible that she might have come to love Robert as Catelyn came to love Eddard.

One thing is clear, she did not love Rhaegar.

It is?

I am convinced that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, because if he's doing it all for a prophecy than do you really think he'd accept "no" for an answer? And just because he is charismatic does not mean he can not be a rapist: most times monsters appear outwardly like regular people. Even if he bothered to ask first, I don't think Lyanna would agree. Even is she didn't know it would cause a civil war, she must have known it would mean turning her back on her family (which she wouldn't have wanted to have done, given that she must have had a good relationship with Eddard otherwise he wouldn't have missed her when she died).

So, I guess Ned was just a victim-blaming asshole who says that Lyanna's wold blood lead to her death when she.. got herself kidnapped, and he also doesn't blame Rhaegar for raping his sister, but compares him favorably to Robert for not going to brothels. Because, obviously, "so what if he kidnapped and raped by sister, who I loved dearly? What's important is that he did not go to prostitutes!"

Makes sense.

[WeaselPie]

There is only one non-Stark man who GRRM (absolutely, not theoretically) tells us Lyanna respected enough to take some serious risks right under the nose of the Mad King and some of the most important lords and knights of the realm: Howland Reed.

I think that showed a great deal of love. Though I suspect that's not what the OP was looking for.

ETA Stark

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

All women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men. Their evil fornications are what ruins the kingdoms! They must be kept in check, and controlled so they don't indulge in their lusts, but fulfill their natural role as dutiful wives (preferably to a man they don't like, so no lust on their part would be involved) and broodmares mothers. , or else we are damned, daaaaaaaaamned, I say! :tantrum: If that doesn't work, a punishment is in order :spank: - a Walk of Shame or two is not a bad solution.

Speak for yourself, don't try putting words or misogyny or anything for that matter into my mouth. The story of Rhaegar & Lyanna is analogous to Romeo & Juliet. Two star-crossed lovers. Young love that was intense and pure and came up against the over complicated constructs of power and caused great upheaval and tragedy. A plague on both your houses! Similarly, I predict when R+L=J comes to light, the revelation of this wasted potential the great loss caused by intolerance will be what reconciles the realm to peace.

[TimJames]

It is?

So, I guess Ned was just a victim-blaming asshole who says that Lyanna's wold blood lead to her death when she.. got herself kidnapped, and he also doesn't blame Rhaegar for raping his sister, but compares him favorably to Robert for not going to brothels. Because, obviously, "so what if he kidnapped and raped by sister, who I loved dearly? What's important is that he did not go to prostitutes!"

Makes sense.

I never said that. Just because Eddard thinks that doesn't mean he is blaming Lyanna; the 'wolf blood' thought could just have been him thinking that perhaps Rhaegar kidnapped her specifically because she was a Stark.

And since when does "doesn't go to brothels" translate to "is a good person"? Roose Bolton doesn't go to brothels, and he's still a rapist.

[Annara Snow]

I never said that. Just because Eddard thinks that doesn't mean he is blaming Lyanna; the 'wolf blood' thought could just have been him thinking that perhaps Rhaegar kidnapped her specifically because she was a Stark.

Err, no, it can't.

“Needle wouldn’t break,” Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

And since when does "doesn't go to brothels" translate to "is a good person"? Roose Bolton doesn't go to brothels, and he's still a rapist.

Ask Eddard Stark, who saw fit compare Rhaegar to Robert in that matter - while never having any negative thoughts about Rhaegar's other traits in any of his POVs, and a startling lack of "that rapist, Rhaegar!" thoughts.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

[TimJames]

Remember, The Tourney of Harrenhal is not a time that Eddard remembers in a positive light. As Eddard was quiet even as a child, it is probable that attending the tourney was his siblings idea. Perhaps he wishes they never went to the tourney to begin with. And even then it wouldn't be blaming them, just like he is not blaming Lyanna for being crowned but still remembers it as when all the smiles died.

Remember, Eddard doesn't think of Rhaegar very much. He says so himself in that very quote that he hasn't thought of him in years. This might be on purpose; perhaps Eddard is trying hard to mentally block thoughts of Rhaegar because they would bring up thoughts of his sister suffering. It is a natural human reaction to traumatic experiences to try and mentally block them. This would explain how when he thought of Rhaegar this one time he did so only in passing; almost like he wouldn't let his thoughts delve deeper lest they bring up something best left shoved away.

And I seriously doubt Eddard would think more highly of Rhaegar. (whom he never once met and who is responcible for the death of his sister, his father, and his brother) than he would of Robert (who he grew up together with and who is almost like a brother to him).

I wonder if Roose Bolton frequents brothels; somehow I think not. He's still a rapist though.

[Annara Snow]

Remember, The Tourney of Harrenhal is not a time that Eddard remembers in a positive light. As Eddard was quiet even as a child, it is probable that attending the tourney was his siblings idea. Perhaps he wishes they never went to the tourney to begin with. And even then it wouldn't be blaming them, just like he is not blaming Lyanna for being crowned but still remembers it as when all the smiles died.

Remember, Eddard doesn't think of Rhaegar very much. He says so himself in that very quote that he hasn't thought of him in years. This might be on purpose; perhaps Eddard is trying hard to mentally block thoughts of Rhaegar because they would bring up thoughts of his sister suffering. It is a natural human reaction to traumatic experiences to try and mentally block them. This would explain how when he thought of Rhaegar this one time he did so only in passing; almost like he wouldn't let his thoughts delve deeper lest they bring up something best left shoved away.

And I seriously doubt Eddard would think more highly of Rhaegar. (whom he never once met and who is responcible for the death of his sister, his father, and his brother) than he would of Robert (who he grew up together with and who is almost like a brother to him).

I wonder if Roose Bolton frequents brothels; somehow I think not. He's still a rapist though.

Remember, the tournament of Harrenhal is something that Ned has no reasons to have positive thoughts about, since it kickstarted the chain of events that lead to the war, his brother's, father's and sister's deaths, etc. That doesn't mean that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

Remember, Ned said Lyanna's wild nature lead to her early death, just like Brandon's wild nature lead to his. If Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, that means Ned was a victim-blaming asshole.

Remember, Ned has good reasons to block thoughts about Rhaegar, since they're connected to so many bad things, including war, the deaths of Rhaegar's children and wife, the death of Lyanna, the deaths of Arthur Dayne and other knights of the Kingsguard as well as his own men at the Tower of Joy, the danger to Jon's life, the secret he's had to keep all those years, which has put a strain on his marriage...

Remember, Ned still never has angry thoughts about Rhaegar - and is uncomfortable with the fact that Robert can still carry rage at Rhaegar after all those years.

Remember, Ned never compared Roose favorably to Robert nor does he think "I wonder if Roose Bolton frequents brothels; somehow I think not." Nor did he compare Gregor Clegane favorably to Robert: "Gregor Clegane may be a notorious rapist; but Ned still wondered if he frequented brothels like Robert. Someone he thought not." He compared Rhaegar to Robert favorably in that aspect. That's because Ned is not a jerk with fucked up ethics like Tywin Lannister, who thinks that rape is more ethical than going to brothels.

Remember, Ned also has high regard for Arthur Dayne and other Kingsguard who were guarding the Tower of Joy when he came for Lyanna, and feels sad that they had to die. In your version of the story, those Kingsguard members that Ned has such high regard for and feels bad for causing the deaths of, were enabling the repeated rape and captivity of his beloved sister.

Damn, the Ned Stark of your version of the story sure is an asshole with fucked up views about ethics and a lack of normal human emotion for his sister.

Remember, you're supposed to draw conclusion from info presented in the books, rather than come up with convoluted rationalizations just in order to try to support the version of the story propagated by one of the characters, namely Robert Baratheon.

[239JMFL34109]

she loved Jon

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

If lyanna loved rhaegar good for them, they loved eachother and they died almost at the same time...

What i am sorry for is the effect Robert let her death have in his life, particulary if she never loved him from the start...

I don´t like to judge rhaegar because he´s still too much of a mystery, but Robert despite his flaws (not few) is a good hearted guy with one of the best reputations and feats in his realm´s history and none can change that even if his dinasty lasts a mere 20 years...

GRRM said in a short video (explaining the lady incident, i think it´s still on youtube) that Robert was a "good guy in many ways", and the way he wrote the conversation on his deathbed with Ned is proof enough for me to believe he was written to be a larger than life person with a good but human heart, prone to big mistakes...

Point being, i think if lyanna loved someone outside her own blood, it was almost certainly rhaegar :)

[Annara Snow]

If lyanna loved rhaegar good for them, they loved eachother and they died almost at the same time...

What i am sorry for is the effect Robert let her death have in his life, particulary if she never loved him from the start...

I don´t like to judge rhaegar because he´s still too much of a mystery, but Robert despite his flaws (not few) is a good hearted guy with one of the best reputations and feats in his realm´s history and none can change that even if his dinasty lasts a mere 20 years...

GRRM said in a short video (explaining the lady incident, i think it´s still on youtube) that Robert was a "good guy in many ways", and the way he wrote the conversation on his deathbed with Ned is proof enough for me to believe he was written to be a larger than life person with a good but human heart, prone to big mistakes...

Point being, i think if lyanna loved someone outside her own blood, it was almost certainly rhaegar :)

I do think it's very sad. This quote, I think, is about that:

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that

was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time

we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He

was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered

Lyanna. “

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a

moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity

most.”

The first time I read this, I just thought blue roses were about Lyanna, and that it was sad Robert didn't get over her so many years after her death. But after reading Ned's last POV chapter, where he remembers Rhaegar giving Lyanna a crown of blue roses at the Harrenhal tournament, at which point it all clicked for me and I thought R+L=J, I went back to re-read all mentions of Lyanna - and suddenly I saw this moment in a different light: Ned knew that Lyanna never loved Robert, so he must have found it incredibly sad that Robert was still hung up on an illusion, someone that never really existed, the idealized Lyanna in his mind who he believed he would have been happy with - but, for obvious reasons, he could never tell him the truth. (Though he did hint to Robert that he did not really know Lyanna that well - "you knew her beauty, but not the iron underneath.)

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I do think it's very sad. This quote, I think, is about that:

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that

was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time

we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He

was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered

Lyanna. “

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a

moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity

most.”

The first time I read this, I just thought blue roses were about Lyanna, and that it was sad Robert didn't get over her so many years after her death. But after reading Ned's last POV chapter, where he remembers Rhaegar giving Lyanna a crown of blue roses at the Harrenhal tournament, at which point it all clicked for me and I thought R+L=J, I went back to re-read all mentions of Lyanna - and suddenly I saw this moment in a different light: Ned knew that Lyanna never loved Robert, so he must have found it incredibly sad that Robert was still hung up on an illusion, someone that never really existed, the idealized Lyanna in his mind who he believed he would have been happy with - but, for obvious reasons, he could never tell him the truth. (Though he did hint to Robert that he did not really know Lyanna that well - "you knew her beauty, but not the iron underneath.)

Exactly :)

I get that Bob saw in lyanna a way to be part of the stark fold, his parents were dead and he probably looked to the starks like the perfect life picture, lyanna probably became as beautiful as cersei or dany just with that thought in mind (despite being described as wild, but normal).

It´s sad to me because it made him miserable despite being with aegon I, the person with the biggest legacy of life, songs were and are made about him, combat feats that will be remembered forever, brotherhoods still fight in his name against criminals and even white walkers... and yet his love for a girl probably prevented a much greater legacy (i believe cersei thinks too much about robert after his death for a guy she "never loved")...

The greatest man can be killed by a young, wild, wolf blooded girl... robert killed rhaegar, lyanna killed robert...

To the record Bobby B is my favourite character, but i know what´s good and bad behavior :)

[shadow282]

Err, no, it can't.

“Needle wouldn’t break,” Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

That comment doesn't at all have to mean that Lyanna meant willingly:

"Ned: Lyanna, don't go riding alone at night! It's dangerous!.

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, don't talk to Rhaegar tonight! He's looking kinda rapey

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, you need to stop spending all your time in the woods!

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: You really shouldn't have jousted in the tournament! What if you attracted some rapist's attention?

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

Ect, ect

All examples where Lyanna acting "wildly" that could have helped lead to her death, without her going with Rhaegar willingly.

Ask Eddard Stark, who saw fit compare Rhaegar to Robert in that matter - while never having any negative thoughts about Rhaegar's other traits in any of his POVs, and a startling lack of "that rapist, Rhaegar!" thoughts.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

"Rhaegar seemed like he preferred virgins; not common in brothels"

"Rhaegar preferred rape to sex- he only got turned on if the woman didn't want him"

"Rhaegar seemed the type to stalk his victims for months before attacking and raping them"

Ect, ect

You're reading what you want to read in those comments. I'm not saying the above is how a broader conversation would go, but it's just as likely as Ned saying that they went willingly. It's definitely not proof either way.

[TimJames]

That comment doesn't at all have to mean that Lyanna meant willingly:

"Ned: Lyanna, don't go riding alone at night! It's dangerous!.

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, don't talk to Rhaegar tonight! He's looking kinda rapey

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, you need to stop spending all your time in the woods!

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: You really shouldn't have jousted in the tournament! What if you attracted some rapist's attention?

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

Ect, ect

All examples where Lyanna acting "wildly" that could have helped lead to her death, without her going with Rhaegar willingly.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next hes like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

"Rhaegar seemed like he preferred virgins; not common in brothels"

"Rhaegar preferred rape to sex- he only got turned on if the woman didn't want him"

"Rhaegar seemed the type to stalk his victims for months before attacking and raping them"

Ect, ect

You're reading what you want to read in those comments. I'm not saying the above is how a broader conversation would go, but it's just as likely as Ned saying that they went willingly. It's definitely not proof either way.

Thank you!

Your comment was very thoughtful and intelligently written.

[~DarkHorse~]

Jon, everyone else comes in second to him.

:agree: Based on what we know of her character (like Arya), she was pretty much Jon's dream mother. :crying:

I don't think she had any love for Robert, their betrothal represents her lack of freedom which clashes with her wolf blood. I think Lyanna had feelings for Rhaegar, although, the circumstances of their actions (brother and father dead) may have put a dampener on that love.

[markg171]

That comment doesn't at all have to mean that Lyanna meant willingly:

"Ned: Lyanna, don't go riding alone at night! It's dangerous!.

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, don't talk to Rhaegar tonight! He's looking kinda rapey

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, you need to stop spending all your time in the woods!

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: You really shouldn't have jousted in the tournament! What if you attracted some rapist's attention?

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

Ect, ect

All examples where Lyanna acting "wildly" that could have helped lead to her death, without her going with Rhaegar willingly.

Ask Eddard Stark, who saw fit compare Rhaegar to Robert in that matter - while never having any negative thoughts about Rhaegar's other traits in any of his POVs, and a startling lack of "that rapist, Rhaegar!" thoughts.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

"Rhaegar seemed like he preferred virgins; not common in brothels"

"Rhaegar preferred rape to sex- he only got turned on if the woman didn't want him"

"Rhaegar seemed the type to stalk his victims for months before attacking and raping them"

Ect, ect

You're reading what you want to read in those comments. I'm not saying the above is how a broader conversation would go, but it's just as likely as Ned saying that they went willingly. It's definitely not proof either way.

It's also operating under the assumption that Lyanna died from childbirth. Which is why Ned's comments don't make sense to him, because that's not acting recklessly like Brandon did and Ned says that Lyanna died for the same reasons Brandon did.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Knight of the Laughing Tree clears this up. It's when Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. He only "found the shield" but more likely he realized it was her, and the rest is history.

just practicing my spoiler tags