Who did lyanna stark really love?

[shadow282]

Knight of the Laughing Tree clears this up. It's when Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. He only "found the shield" but more likely he realized it was her, and the rest is history.

Which is assuming that Lyanna is KotLT when there's other reasonable candidates. Then assuming that Rhaegar found whoever it was which is based off zero evidence. Then assuming that Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, of which there is also zero evidence. Then assuming that even if Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna instead of using her for a prophecy, of which there is also zero evidence. Not at all a solid case, certainly not enough to state "the rest is history".

[wolfmaid7]

Welcome OP to the boards,you will get differing opinions on this.There's plenty of speculation but we don't get evidence on Lya's feeling in this text at all. We get what Robert says he felt,what Ned says Robert felt.We get what some people assume Rhaegar must have felt all predicated on he " his actions aided the destruction of his house and agony of the Kingdom so he "must" have loved her."

People seldom question Lya in this and i like to go by what the text says to determine this.

It was known that Lya was what's the phrase ..oh yes " Boyish and wild" we get imagery of her fighting with swords,galloping like a Centaur with Brandon.Ned says she would have had a sword had their father allowed it and she's compared to Arya.Not to mention and i believe this to be true that she was TKOTLT.

I don't know about you guys, but i don't think Lya had romantic notions about anyone farless Rhaegar.The text says absolutely nothing about what "her feelings".Except infering that she probably would have made a really good knight.

[BrandonStark's bastard]

Which is assuming that Lyanna is KotLT when there's other reasonable candidates. Then assuming that Rhaegar found whoever it was which is based off zero evidence. Then assuming that Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, of which there is also zero evidence. Then assuming that even if Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna instead of using her for a prophecy, of which there is also zero evidence. Not at all a solid case, certainly not enough to state "the rest is history".

I will forever be confused by the way people who think Lyanna loved Rhaegar treat it as a fact. It's strange how we have not heard Lyanna's side of things.

[markg171]

I will forever be confused by the way people who think Lyanna loved Rhaegar treat it as a fact. It's strange how we have not heard Lyanna's side of things.

Also why they think that Lyanna would have loved Rhaegar over Robert, when Rhaegar seems like the exact opposite kind of person who would make her happy while Robert seemingly shared the same interests as her.

[TimJames]

Which is assuming that Lyanna is KotLT when there's other reasonable candidates. Then assuming that Rhaegar found whoever it was which is based off zero evidence. Then assuming that Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, of which there is also zero evidence. Then assuming that even if Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna instead of using her for a prophecy, of which there is also zero evidence. Not at all a solid case, certainly not enough to state "the rest is history".

Exactly!

It's annoying how people treat this stuff like Martin himself confirmed it (he didn't), when it fact it is just speculation (and some of it surprisingly easy to dispute at that).

I don't see how Lyanna could have been the LaughingTree Knight; there is neither evidence nor indication that she ever held a lance before (Arya never jousted before, and only started using a sword when she left won her father on an ill conceived business trip). I also don't recall any of the characters describing her as having a masculine voice or being a ventriloquist (one of which would have been needed to produce the booming voice). Benjan, Eddard, and Howland are all more plausible, as they would have matched the physical descriptions.

I already explained why Lyanna would not have run off with Rhaegar willingly, and why he would not have had romantic feelings for her. It makes more sense for Rhaegar to be a kidnapping rapist, as his actions already seemed like the early onset of Targaryen Madness.

Even in fantastical settings, basic logic should still be applied.

[TimJames]

Also why they think that Lyanna would have loved Rhaegar over Robert, when Rhaegar seems like the exact opposite kind of person who would make her happy while Robert seemingly shared the same interests as her.

Very good point. It said in the books that Robert asked Cersei to come along on a hunting trip with him in the first year of their marriage; if Robert had been married to Lyanna she would have taken him up on his offer. Heck, if she survived her imprisonment long enough to marry Robert than he would be the perfect person to help her cope with the loss of her father and brother as he knows from personal experience what it is like to lose his parents. Their shared experiences could easily bring them closer together.

[Pigeon Pie]

That comment doesn't at all have to mean that Lyanna meant willingly:

"Ned: Lyanna, don't go riding alone at night! It's dangerous!.

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, don't talk to Rhaegar tonight! He's looking kinda rapey

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, you need to stop spending all your time in the woods!

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: You really shouldn't have jousted in the tournament! What if you attracted some rapist's attention?

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

Ect, ect

All examples where Lyanna acting "wildly" that could have helped lead to her death, without her going with Rhaegar willingly.

Ask Eddard Stark, who saw fit compare Rhaegar to Robert in that matter - while never having any negative thoughts about Rhaegar's other traits in any of his POVs, and a startling lack of "that rapist, Rhaegar!" thoughts.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

"Rhaegar seemed like he preferred virgins; not common in brothels"

"Rhaegar preferred rape to sex- he only got turned on if the woman didn't want him"

"Rhaegar seemed the type to stalk his victims for months before attacking and raping them"

Ect, ect

You're reading what you want to read in those comments. I'm not saying the above is how a broader conversation would go, but it's just as likely as Ned saying that they went willingly. It's definitely not proof either way.

Yeah, this looks convincing. "Lyanna stop attracting a rapist's attention! Ugh you have wolf blood!"

[TimJames]

Yeah, this looks convincing. "Lyanna stop attracting a rapist's attention! Ugh you have wolf blood!"

Didn't your parents ever tell you to be careful around strangers?

[markg171]

Very good point. It said in the books that Robert asked Cersei to come along on a hunting trip with him in the first year of their marriage; if Robert had been married to Lyanna she would have taken him up on his offer. Heck, if she survived her imprisonment long enough to marry Robert than he would be the perfect person to help her cope with the loss of her father and brother as he knows from personal experience what it is like to lose his parents. Their shared experiences could easily bring them closer together.

We don't even know that they would have needed to be brought closer together. They'd been betrothed for like 4 years when Rhaegar kidnapped her. And they at least spent 10 days together at Harrenhal. So they knew each other.

As for other reasons why I think Robert would have been a better match:

Both loved riding

Dawn broke as they crested a low ridge, and finally the king pulled up. By then they were miles south of the main party. Robert was flushed and exhilarated as Ned reined up beside him. “Gods,” he swore, laughing, “it feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad.” He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon. “That damnable wheelhouse, the way it creaks and groans, climbing every Burnp in the road as if it were a mountain... I promise you, if that wretched thing breaks another axle, I’m going to burn it, and Cersei can walk!”

“Perhaps he was tired,” Robert suggested. “Killing kings is weary work. Gods know, there’s no place else to rest your ass in that damnable room. And he spoke truly, it is a monstrous uncomfortable chair. In more ways than one.” The king shook his head. “Well, now I know Jaime’s dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It’s all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let’s ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again.” He kicked his horse back into motion and galloped up over the barrow, raining earth down behind him.

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. “You ride like a northman, milady,” Harwin said when he’d drawn them to a halt. “Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember.”

Both loved fighting

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

The rest of his father’s words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

“None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking, howled the she-wolf.”

“A wolf on four legs, or two?”

“Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. “You see what she does to me, Ned.” The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. “My loving wife. The mother of my children.” The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. “I should not have hit her. That was not... that was not kingly.” He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong... no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.” The king drained his cup.

“Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I’ve won it. And Cersei... I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father’s throne.” The king shook his head. “I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold... the way she guards her cunt, you’d think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs. Here, give me that beer if you won’t drink it.” He took the horn, upended it, belched, wiped his mouth. “I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son... you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

“Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

“Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark’s head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. ‘This Baratheon is fearless,’ I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.’ Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it’s true … but what if we prevail?’ My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. ‘If you lose,’ he told Lord Eddard, ‘you were never here.’ ”

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

So I've never understood why people are sure that Lyanna didn't or wouldn't have loved Robert, when we never get her opinion but they're a perfect match.

[TimJames]

We don't even know that they would have needed to be brought closer together. They'd been betrothed for like 4 years when Rhaegar kidnapped her. And they at least spent 10 days together at Harrenhal. So they knew each other.

As for other reasons why I think Robert would have been a better match:

Both loved riding

Both loved fighting

So I've never understood why people are sure that Lyanna didn't or wouldn't have loved Robert, when we never get her opinion but they're a perfect match.

Very good points. Compared that to Rhaegar, with whom Lyanna has NOTHING AT ALL in commen.

[The Wolves]

We don't even know that they would have needed to be brought closer together. They'd been betrothed for like 4 years when Rhaegar kidnapped her. And they at least spent 10 days together at Harrenhal. So they knew each other.

As for other reasons why I think Robert would have been a better match:

Both loved riding

Both loved fighting

So I've never understood why people are sure that Lyanna didn't or wouldn't have loved Robert, when we never get her opinion but they're a perfect match.

To the bolded Robert never knew Lyanna.

Everytime him and Ned talked about her Ned was always correcting Robert about Lyanna's character even Ned said all Rohert saw was Lyanna's beauty.

[TimJames]

To the bolded Robert never knew Lyanna.

Everytime him and Ned talked about her Ned was always correcting Robert about Lyanna's character even Ned said all Rohert saw was Lyanna's beauty.

Eddard said that exactly ONE time. Not what I'd a regular occurrence.

[markg171]

To the bolded Robert never knew Lyanna.

Everytime him and Ned talked about her Ned was always correcting Robert about Lyanna's character even Ned said all Rohert saw was Lyanna's beauty.

Ned said that once. That doesn't prove he didn't know her. Again, they were betrothed for 4 years and had at the very least spent 10 days together at Harrenhal. Robert knew her. The quote about the iron is more than that, Ned says Robert didnt know her as well as he did. Which is understandable that the brother knew her better. It doesnt mean that he wasnt aware that she was strong willed. Just that Ned knew her better.

Do you think Robert was in love with her till the day he died simply because she was beautiful? If he just cared about that he should have had an outstanding marriage with Cersei. Yet while he thought Cersei was beautiful, he never loved her.

And if Robert only knew she was beautiful, do you think he'd have cared when he found out that she liked swords, fighting, and riding horses? He'd have been goddamn ecstatic, but for some strange reason this board continues to try and push this idea that Lyanna needed to become ladylike for him. That's the last thing he'd have wanted. He'd have loved to have a wife who had the same interests that he did. He specifically hated Cersei because she didn't like the things that he liked. He wouldn't have had that problem with Lyanna.

[Bryanfury]

To the bolded Robert never knew Lyanna.

Everytime him and Ned talked about her Ned was always correcting Robert about Lyanna's character even Ned said all Rohert saw was Lyanna's beauty.

Nevermind your lie about "always correcting Robert", Robert probably knew Lyanna far more than Rhaegar did when they eloped. As far as we can tell from the current information from the books, Lyanna and Rhaegar never even met at the Tourney of Harrenhal until he made her the Queen of Love and Beauty, and there's no real solid evidence that they crossed paths after this until they disappeared.

Whatever Robert knew of Lyanna, Rhaegar knew even less until after they decided their fling was worth risking the wrath of two Lords Paramount. And you know what really gets me? Rhaegar knew damn well what breaking a betrothal like this can do. The last time a Lord Paramount was denied a betrothal because of royal interference happened to Lyonal Baratheon wrt Duncan the Small refusing to marry his daughter setting off a civil war. And remember what Barristans opinion on this event was?

The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the price in corpses.

Rhaegar knew the cost of what he was doing. And he knew it better than he knew Lyanna when they eloped. Rhaegar was a short-sighted fool.

[Annara Snow]

Ask Eddard Stark, who saw fit compare Rhaegar to Robert in that matter - while never having any negative thoughts about Rhaegar's other traits in any of his POVs, and a startling lack of "that rapist, Rhaegar!" thoughts.

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

"Rhaegar seemed like he preferred virgins; not common in brothels"

"Rhaegar preferred rape to sex- he only got turned on if the woman didn't want him"

"Rhaegar seemed the type to stalk his victims for months before attacking and raping them"

Ect, ect

You're reading what you want to read in those comments. I'm not saying the above is how a broader conversation would go, but it's just as likely as Ned saying that they went willingly. It's definitely not proof either way.

No, it's not, unless Ned thought that anyone who doesn't go to brothels is likely to be a rapist (what does that say about Ned himself then?) It doesn't make sense and it's extremely convoluted.

Also why they think that Lyanna would have loved Rhaegar over Robert, when Rhaegar seems like the exact opposite kind of person who would make her happy while Robert seemingly shared the same interests as her.

Lyanna liked drinking herself silly, singing bawdy songs, whoring and fucking hundreds of different people? That's news to me.

That comment doesn't at all have to mean that Lyanna meant willingly:

"Ned: Lyanna, don't go riding alone at night! It's dangerous!.

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, don't talk to Rhaegar tonight! He's looking kinda rapey

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: Lyanna, you need to stop spending all your time in the woods!

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

"Ned: You really shouldn't have jousted in the tournament! What if you attracted some rapist's attention?

Lyanna: I'll be fine! What could happen?"

Ect, ect

All examples where Lyanna acting "wildly" that could have helped lead to her death, without her going with Rhaegar willingly.

Oh my god. :ack:

So, you're saying Ned Stark really was a victim-blaming asshole.

Yeah, this looks convincing. "Lyanna stop attracting a rapist's attention! Ugh you have wolf blood!"

Exactly.

Didn't your parents ever tell you to be careful around strangers?

Oh, my god, again. :stillsick: :lol:

You don't even get what's wrong with being a victim-blaming asshole, do you?

We don't even know that they would have needed to be brought closer together. They'd been betrothed for like 4 years when Rhaegar kidnapped her. And they at least spent 10 days together at Harrenhal. So they knew each other.

As for other reasons why I think Robert would have been a better match:

Both loved riding

Both loved fighting

So I've never understood why people are sure that Lyanna didn't or wouldn't have loved Robert, when we never get her opinion but they're a perfect match.

Yeah, who needs to know how Lyanna actually felt about Robert? The important thing is that you've decided that they'd be a perfect match based on a couple of isolated traits. :rolleyes:

Anyway, 90% of highborn men in Westeros seem to like fighting and riding, obviously they'd all be perfect matches for Lyanna. Margaery Tyrell likes riding, too - too bad Lyanna did not live long enough, they'd be a perfect match.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

The last we hear from Rhaegar is in Jaime's fever dream when they speak just before setting off for the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar seems completly lucid-no Targ craziness ar all.

The strongest sense I get from Rhaegar is a pervasive feeling of melencholy and destiny. I think somehow he knew the future, knew he had to make Jon, knew he,Lyanna, and so many others would die tragically, but that he had to do it anyways so that Jon could save the world from the Others. So he went for to face his destiny.

I think somehow he convinced Lyanna of this too and that's why she chose to go away with him.

[DJIM]

What makes me think that Rhaegar did not kidnap and rape Lyanna are Ned's thoughts about him. He seems to have no hate towards him which would not be the case if he had indeed done those things. And he did find Lyanna before she died so he obviously knows the story (shame he didn't actually tell us though).

[Pigeon Pie]

Didn't your parents ever tell you to be careful around strangers?

Didn't your parents ever tell you that rape is NEVER the victim's fault, and that women have the right to "attract attention" and not be raped and die in childbirth?

[shadow282]

No, it's not, unless Ned thought that anyone who doesn't go to brothels is likely to be a rapist (what does that say about Ned himself then?) It doesn't make sense and it's extremely convoluted.

Oh my god. :ack:

So, you're saying Ned Stark really was a victim-blaming asshole.

Yeah, this looks convincing. "Lyanna stop attracting a rapist's attention! Ugh you have wolf blood!"

Using "victim-blaming" as a cudgel to blindly beat away any stance that doesn't agree with yours is sickening. It demeans the horror of rape and completely belittles the actual cruel experiences that millions of woman have gone through. I get that you've created this idea in your head, and clearly your struggling to defend it. But ignoring what I actually said and just bringing that up is fundamentally wrong.

I never said that it was Lyanna's fault, because it wasn't. I never said she deserved it, because she didn't. Nobody is victim blaming here.

Since clearly your struggling with this, here's a simpler example for you:

Ted is always very nice to his great aunt. When she dies, she gives Ted lots of money. Ted uses that money to go to New York. While on the streets of New York, Ted gets mugged.

The statement: "Ted being nice to his great aunt led to him getting mugged in NY" is completely correct. It isn't saying that Ted deserved it, because he didn't. It isn't saying that Ted was asking for it, because he wasn't. It isn't saying that it's a foreseeable consequence of Ted being nice to his aunt, because it isn't. Same thing could easily apply. "Lyanna's wolf blood led to her death" is not at all saying that it was her fault.

It makes as much sense as your "Ned thought Rhaegar wouldn't go to brothels so clearly he thinks Rhaegar amazing and awesome and he and Lyanna were super in love!". It's a completely neutral statement. Saying it definitely either way is extreme convoluted.

[markg171]

Lyanna liked drinking herself silly, singing bawdy songs, whoring and fucking hundreds of different people? That's news to me.

Yeah, who needs to know how Lyanna actually felt about Robert? The important thing is that you've decided that they'd be a perfect match based on a couple of isolated traits. :rolleyes:

Anyway, 90% of highborn men in Westeros seem to like fighting and riding, obviously they'd all be perfect matches for Lyanna. Margaery Tyrell likes riding, too - too bad Lyanna did not live long enough, they'd be a perfect match.

Lyanna liking a melancholy person who only did things because he thought he had to and not because he wanted to is news to me.

The last we hear from Rhaegar is in Jaime's fever dream when they speak just before setting off for the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar seems completly lucid-no Targ craziness ar all.

He also seemed to love Elia

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”