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Descendents of the old races


Luddagain

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We are made aware of a number of old races/peoples/species in the book and wonder who if any are their descendents, perhaps with blood mingled with First men. Each may have elements of skin changing



Children of the Forest - it is hinted at strongly that the Crannogmen are their descendents



Giants - It is not too much of a stretch to assume the Umbers are their descendents



Deepones - Not sure but options include Mermen/Merlings - Squishers???, - Manderlys would be my favourite pick for a modern descendent - I strongly suspect they can warg with whales



Centaurs - hmm!!! Ryswells/Dustin?????? - i think Lord Dustin is warges into the red stallion



Hairy ones/ibbenese - Hairy bears - Mormants



Old ones - No bloody idea



Others- descendents of the Night King - Boltons or maybe some Starks



Fish men- Sisterton ?????



Toad men - no idea



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It's easy to forget that in our own reality our anatomically modern ancestors were contemporaries with as many as four different hominids, some of whom meaningfully contributed to our genome.

The Sisterton folk are likely seeing some simple advantageous selection. We've seen this before with indigenous populations that free dive to obtain food. Their eyes are shaped in such a way to allow them clearer vision underwater. "The mark" of the people there contributed to the peoples' identity and gave them a breeding advantage. The crannogmen and tall men's respective height extremes likely follow the same pattern of population traits.

The Ibbenese are a different story. They do appear to be a contemporary branch of humanity, one that even may have a limited interbreeding capacity with anatomically modern humans. It's hinted that the Skaggosi are hybrids in that sense.

CotF/Giants/Others/Brindled Men/Squishers seem like near-humans who evolved analogously to fill the same niche as mankind. Can they breed with humanity? I rather doubt it. The crannogmen may've learned the magics of the greenseers, but I don't believe they interbred. Same for giants-- it's just a wildling saying to explain big people.


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Not entirely sure I agree about the interbreeding.



In the last three years it has now become accepted that Neanderthals DID interbreed with Homo sapiens. When I saw the description of the Ibbenese the neanderthal instantly sprang to mind. Since the hairy men seem to be Ibbenese in type, I am assuming that this group at least can interbreed at least occasionally. When one species splits into two species there is a period of overlap during which interbreeding while rare can occur. Mules, Tigons, Ligers, shoats etc are all examples of this in the real world. Now in most cases the offspring are sterile and thus defined as separate species.



However there ARE documented cases of fertile mules etc, so it is NOT impossible. While rare I think interbreeding between some if not all of the ancient races is possible.



In our real world the hairy men/Ibbenses seem to be like neanderthal - highly intelligent but strong and hairy



Humans DID coexist with "giants" such as the Turkana Man, and we have no evidence one way or the other about interbrteeding.



Modern day pygmies, bushmen, and negrito peoples are rather like the Co.F in size and activity

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I was actually thinking about skinchanging recently. It seems like the ability to skinchange has something of a genetic component; it seems like it's a trait that usually only crops up in certain Houses. Or at least is more common in certain Houses than others. But wasn't skinchanging a CotF thing first? So if there is a genetic component to it, where exactly did the ability to skinchange come from? It doesn't seem like any human could feasibly become a skinchanger, since there's none we know of in Essos. But I find it kind of hard to believe that the First Men just happened to be the only race of Men with the ability to skinchange, and they just happened to be the ones who came to Westeros. So could there actually have been some inbreeding between the First Men and the CotF, or are all the theories about skinchanging having a genetic component just totally wrong?


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On the southern third of Leng dwell the descendants of those displaced by the invaders from the Golden Empire. The native Lengii are perhaps the tallest of all the known races of mankind, with many men amongst them reaching seven feet in height, and some as tall as eight. Long-legged and slender, with flesh the color of oiled teak, they have large golden eyes and can supposedly see farther and better than other men, especially at night. Though formidably tall, the women of the Lengii are famously lithe and lovely, of surpassing beauty.



It was mariners from the Golden Empire who opened Leng to trade, yet even then the island remained a perilous place for outsiders, for the Empress of Leng was known to have congress with the Old Ones, gods who lived deep below the ruined subterranean cities, and from time to time the Old Ones told her to put all the strangers on the island to death. This is known to have happened at least four times in the island’s history if Colloquo Votar’s Jade Compendium can be believed.



Leng’s history goes back almost as far as that of Yi Ti itself, but little and less of it is known west of the Jade Straits. There are queer ruins in the depths of the island’s jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface … but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people.



The native Lengii are inhumanely tall and they have golden eyes adapted to see better in the dark. It is clear that the native Lengii were descended from the Old Ones. By the way, it is strange that the CotF have golden eyes too and they can see better in the dark.


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I believe their are no descendants of Old races, Humans cannot mate with all Humans in ASOIAF (Ibbenese and Brindled Women), so the prospect of interbreeding seems ludicrous.

We don't really know that for certain; it could just be a bias or hearsay. After all, there are two characters who may be part Ibbenese. And it seems like the Ibbenese are based off of Neanderthals, which interbred with humans.

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We don't really know that for certain; it could just be a bias or hearsay. After all, there are two characters who may be part Ibbenese. And it seems like the Ibbenese are based off of Neanderthals, which interbred with humans.

But why are brindled woman said to be infertile and not brindled men? Why would Martin/Yandel be that specific?

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Because in real world species interbreeding this is common then progeny of Horse and Donkey are very different depending on the mother species. OCCASIONALLY the Jenny (female mules) are fertile.



If you have followed popular science you probably believe the garbage spouted about the "human" species and their weird cousins - Neandethal, Erectus, Java man, Peking man etc and the assumption that they could not interbreed. This has NOW been shown to be bunkum. I am assuming that GRRM and others writing WOIF are aware of the "multiregional/out of Africa" debate in anthropology. if you are a "multi regionalist" advocate then the interbreeding of ancient races and early modern humans is the key hypothesis. In the last three years the Multiregionalists seem, to have won the debate, although i expect pull back from the quasi religious "Out of Africans"



In our REAL world if you have (and probably did for many years) a separation between Europeans of Basque descent and all other races then while male Basques could almost always father children on a woman of another race whereas only the very first child of a Basque woman and other race man would have a chance of survival and then ONLY if the birth was trauma free. The cause is simple Rh- factor. Today such children survive usually by having a blood transfusion at birth, after which there is no issue. Probably the strings of miscarriages and still births in Royal marriages can often be dumped at the Rh-ve factor.



Now back to GoT I am guessing that Jenny of Oldstones is part CoF which is why Duncan the Small was forced out of the succession. I am guessing that the old wood witch is Jenny's mother or grandmother. I am guessing that Hodor and the Umbers have some giant blood somewhere (hence the Umber sigil).



I am also guessing that for those first men houses that have animal sigils, this indicates an ancient capacity to warg with that animal as a familiar. We KNOW it is true for Starks and Blackwoods (wolves and Ravens) and sort of true for Targs.


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Because in real world species interbreeding this is common then progeny of Horse and Donkey are very different depending on the mother species. OCCASIONALLY the Jenny (female mules) are fertile.

If you have followed popular science you probably believe the garbage spouted about the "human" species and their weird cousins - Neandethal, Erectus, Java man, Peking man etc and the assumption that they could not interbreed. This has NOW been shown to be bunkum. I am assuming that GRRM and others writing WOIF are aware of the "multiregional/out of Africa" debate in anthropology. if you are a "multi regionalist" advocate then the interbreeding of ancient races and early modern humans is the key hypothesis. In the last three years the Multiregionalists seem, to have won the debate, although i expect pull back from the quasi religious "Out of Africans"

In our REAL world if you have (and probably did for many years) a separation between Europeans of Basque descent and all other races then while male Basques could almost always father children on a woman of another race whereas only the very first child of a Basque woman and other race man would have a chance of survival and then ONLY if the birth was trauma free. The cause is simple Rh- factor. Today such children survive usually by having a blood transfusion at birth, after which there is no issue. Probably the strings of miscarriages and still births in Royal marriages can often be dumped at the Rh-ve factor.

Now back to GoT I am guessing that Jenny of Oldstones is part CoF which is why Duncan the Small was forced out of the succession. I am guessing that the old wood witch is Jenny's mother or grandmother. I am guessing that Hodor and the Umbers have some giant blood somewhere (hence the Umber sigil).

I am also guessing that for those first men houses that have animal sigils, this indicates an ancient capacity to warg with that animal as a familiar. We KNOW it is true for Starks and Blackwoods (wolves and Ravens) and sort of true for Targs.

I don't think Jenny being part CotF was the reason Duncan gave up his rights to the throne. It was because she was just some commonwoman, and Duncan was a Prince. And not only was he a Prince, but he was a Prince that was already betrothed to another woman; a noblewoman.

As for the sigils, I don't think the Targaryens really matter for that theory since I'm pretty sure they didn't have a sigil until post-Conquest.

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If someone has the blood of the deep ones, I would say the people in the three sisters, Davos saw someone with webbed hands when he was there.

We haven't seen them yet, but there's a decent chance that the Hightowers have some Deep Ones blood in them. The foundation of the tower is supposed to be the same weird black stone that the Seastone Chair in the Iron Islands was made out of. Also, it seems odd that the powerful Hightowers have basically sat out of the entire War of the Five Kings despite being involved in other conflicts such as the Dance of the Dragons.

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On the southern third of Leng dwell the descendants of those displaced by the invaders from the Golden Empire. The native Lengii are perhaps the tallest of all the known races of mankind, with many men amongst them reaching seven feet in height, and some as tall as eight. Long-legged and slender, with flesh the color of oiled teak, they have large golden eyes and can supposedly see farther and better than other men, especially at night. Though formidably tall, the women of the Lengii are famously lithe and lovely, of surpassing beauty.

It was mariners from the Golden Empire who opened Leng to trade, yet even then the island remained a perilous place for outsiders, for the Empress of Leng was known to have congress with the Old Ones, gods who lived deep below the ruined subterranean cities, and from time to time the Old Ones told her to put all the strangers on the island to death. This is known to have happened at least four times in the island’s history if Colloquo Votar’s Jade Compendium can be believed.

Leng’s history goes back almost as far as that of Yi Ti itself, but little and less of it is known west of the Jade Straits. There are queer ruins in the depths of the island’s jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface … but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people.

The native Lengii are inhumanely tall and they have golden eyes adapted to see better in the dark. It is clear that the native Lengii were descended from the Old Ones. By the way, it is strange that the CotF have golden eyes too and they can see better in the dark.

Outside of Westeros I think there are definitely folks who have some Old Ones blood. Great link between the Children and the people of Leng. The very name of Leng suggests some "eldritch horror".

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I was actually thinking about skinchanging recently. It seems like the ability to skinchange has something of a genetic component; it seems like it's a trait that usually only crops up in certain Houses. Or at least is more common in certain Houses than others. But wasn't skinchanging a CotF thing first? So if there is a genetic component to it, where exactly did the ability to skinchange come from? It doesn't seem like any human could feasibly become a skinchanger, since there's none we know of in Essos. But I find it kind of hard to believe that the First Men just happened to be the only race of Men with the ability to skinchange, and they just happened to be the ones who came to Westeros. So could there actually have been some inbreeding between the First Men and the CotF, or are all the theories about skinchanging having a genetic component just totally wrong?

I hesitate to use the term genetic because I think what we see in the series is the concept of blood magic. If the magic does originate in the blood then our closest analogue is to call it genetic. The Children definitely seem to have had the ability to skinchange ravens and probably other creatures in the past, so some form of interbreeding between Children and First Men makes it possible. The fact that the Green Men are rumored to be horned and that as an order they are first mentioned after the Pact between Children and First Men makes this link stronger in my opinion.

Favorite skinchanging family: House Crane, Sam's maternal grandmother's family, skinchanging lovely birds.

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Lengii seems to be of giant's blood, they are all tall. Some people sees Yi Ti as an India counterpart, but I always saw Yi Ti as China and Leng as Taiwan.

I think people thinking of Yi Ti as an India counterpart was before the Worldbook came out, since the Worldbook made it quite clear it was something of a China analogue. At least in my opinion. But if the do have inhuman blood, it's probably from the Old Ones; since we don't really have anything to point to giants inhabiting the island. We just have no idea what the Old Ones happen to look like, which is a tad problematic.

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Lengii seems to be of giant's blood, they are all tall. Some people sees Yi Ti as an India counterpart, but I always saw Yi Ti as China and Leng as Taiwan.

The giants have bad eyes. They primarily use their noses. It is true that the Lengii are inhumanely tall but they have lean built instead of the thick bodies of the Umbers, who definitely have some giant blood up in the ancestry.

The Old Ones live underground, which means their eyes should see well in the dark. The golden eyes of the Lengii are clearly linked to them.

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Because in real world species interbreeding this is common then progeny of Horse and Donkey are very different depending on the mother species. OCCASIONALLY the Jenny (female mules) are fertile.

If you have followed popular science you probably believe the garbage spouted about the "human" species and their weird cousins - Neandethal, Erectus, Java man, Peking man etc and the assumption that they could not interbreed. This has NOW been shown to be bunkum. I am assuming that GRRM and others writing WOIF are aware of the "multiregional/out of Africa" debate in anthropology. if you are a "multi regionalist" advocate then the interbreeding of ancient races and early modern humans is the key hypothesis. In the last three years the Multiregionalists seem, to have won the debate, although i expect pull back from the quasi religious "Out of Africans"

In our REAL world if you have (and probably did for many years) a separation between Europeans of Basque descent and all other races then while male Basques could almost always father children on a woman of another race whereas only the very first child of a Basque woman and other race man would have a chance of survival and then ONLY if the birth was trauma free. The cause is simple Rh- factor. Today such children survive usually by having a blood transfusion at birth, after which there is no issue. Probably the strings of miscarriages and still births in Royal marriages can often be dumped at the Rh-ve factor.

Now back to GoT I am guessing that Jenny of Oldstones is part CoF which is why Duncan the Small was forced out of the succession. I am guessing that the old wood witch is Jenny's mother or grandmother. I am guessing that Hodor and the Umbers have some giant blood somewhere (hence the Umber sigil).

I am also guessing that for those first men houses that have animal sigils, this indicates an ancient capacity to warg with that animal as a familiar. We KNOW it is true for Starks and Blackwoods (wolves and Ravens) and sort of true for Targs.

Great answer! :cheers:

The Biological Species Concept (BSC) is based on the ability to produce viable offspring. In biology, and particularly palaeoanthropology, there is a ongoing debate between the "Lumpers" and the "Splitters" when it comes to classifying species. With fossil species it is not possible to observe the nature breeding behavior and results to verify viability of offspring. All they have to go on is morphology (ancient DNA is only possible with more recent, non-fossilized remains with good preservation). Splitters tend to propose new species for any population (and sometimes single individuals) that vary from other known specimens. Lumpers tend to combine these into larger groups and consider regional variants as subspecies, but allow for gene flow between populations. (Full disclosure: I am a Lumper.)

Genetic evidence is becoming clearer now for more recent ancestral forms (such as 'anatomically modern humans', Neanderthals, and Denisovians) revealing interbreeding of populations (i.e., gene flow), and that these populations derived from a Homo erectus grade predecessor (with many regional variants -- subspecies -- such as Homo e. ergaster in Africa, Homo e. pekingesis in China, Homo e. erectus in Indonesia, and Homo e. heidelbergensis in Europe. Also, contemporaneous cousins, Homo floresensis (the so-called 'Hobbit', found on the far side of Wallace's line between SE Asian and Australasian fauna), that is essentially a miniature early form of Homo erectus (nearly identical to the earliest hominins outside of Africa, from Dmanisi, Georgia) with island dwarfism. This illustrates the multiregional perspective, long advocated by Milford Walpoff, of gene flow between global populations of early human ancestors. With the 'Hobbit' the exception that proves the rule. The Out of Africa model of global population replacement is a Splitter model based on mitochondrial DNA and from a limited sample, and relies on a guesstimate on the mutation rate, the 'molecular clock', and a loose association with the spread of a population of anatomically modern humans out of Africa, around 100.000 ya. Multiregionalism fits the observed data much better and is in line with the BSC (The BSC, of course, breaks down when you consider microorganisms, like bacteria and viruses that can swap DNA with 'horizontal gene transfer').

On Planetos, I think populations like the Ibbenese and Brindled Men of Sothros are possibly analogous to groups like Neanderthals and Denisovians. As Luddagain cogently notes above, there are other reasons for reproductive incompatibility like Rh-factor -- but also mate recognition, mating behaviors, etc., that can preclude interbreeding. In other cases, interbreeding seems to be successful (perhaps with the aid of magic?): First Men and Children of the Forest/Giants; First Men and Others; Lengii and Old Ones; Valyrians and dragons? Imbuing that bloodline with special traits (i.e., skinchanging, dragonmastery, Ghost of High Hart, Night's Queen, etc.).

:)

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