Children raised by religious fundamentalists—can this be a form of child abuse?

[Summah]

I've been wondering about this recently, there are a few families I know who are religious fundamentalists and I see how they're raising their children: there appears to be little to no development of critical thinking skills; the children are not exposed to other beliefs from outside their community or knowledge (like science) that conflicts, school age kids go to religious schools or are home schooled; questioning the belief system is sometimes met by anger or scorn; people from outside their group are mocked and criticized heavily; non-religious friends and family (like me) are given instructions or criticized for not being inline with the parents' belief system. I began to wonder if this type of indoctrination is actually a type of child abuse and I thought if I try to teach any of these children how to think critically I would just be kicked out of their lives, but then I wonder how can I see what's going on and do otherwise.

[DeathYon]

Yes, I think this kind of behaviour could be considered as abusive.

Real life example: my aunt did not allow her children (I believe it was religious reasons) to get immunized from a certain life threatening disease. When I asked why not, one of my cousins responded with "there's more chance of being hit by a car".

I'd say that this may be an example of abuse due to religious/personal beliefs. The details are a bit fuzzy though, as I was very young at the time.

[Gneisenau]

We had a case in Canada with a young girl and her parents who started chemo but didn't complete it to treat the girl's leukemia. They were going to use indigenous medicine instead. The court ruled that they have the right to do that. The girl died recently.

[ThinkerX]

The OP could just as well be describing my lovely young daughter until age 16 or so - she was being raised by her fundamentalist Christian mother, who took them to church three times a week, labeled her kitchen cabinets with bible verses, and forbade all media save for the religious radio stations. Even Disney movies were deemed 'satanic'. She and her sister were being homeschooled using a program I equate to brainwashing. Back then, my daughter was quite the little fundy herself, and I had to choose my words with care on the few occasions I was allowed to see her. Her life's ambition was to be a housewife with ten kids.

Then she moved in with me - my Ex became unstable enough to where even the other fanatics were not comfortable with her (among other things, linking random numbers from earthquakes to equally random biblical verses to predict the future.

Inside of a year, my daughter stopped going to church. She made friends in the public school system, and at work (one of those 'jobs for class credit deals).

Three years later, she decided fundy Christians were basically 'noodles.'

Three months ago, she and her friends dropped in at the local strip club, which she found hilarious.

[Eponine]

Well you all knew I'd show up sooner or later. It's hard to say. I went from denial (they tried their best; they were sincere in their beliefs), to resentment (which was there at some level the whole time), to being extremely admiring of a friend who is not bitter and seems incredibly forgiving while also not being a pushover.

It's hard to think of oneself as an abuse victim when one doesn't really have another frame of reference. My parents are still in my life, albeit in a limited capacity, and they think they barely did anything wrong. They didn't deny me medical treatment or make me marry when I was 16 or beat me as a baby (google to train up a child if you have a strong stomach). I went a school that used Bob Jones science curriculum. Jerry Falwell was a big deal in our community and about a quarter of my classmates went to his college. I wasn't allowed to listen to secular music or go to public school prom. My parents believe in literal hell and think I'm going there. It's hard to convey a sense of all the rules.

Where I really think there's evidence for abuse in my life is that the circumstances have always ended with me blaming myself for every mistake or perceived mistake. As a teenager, I blamed myself for not being able to believe. After college, I married a fundie because I honestly believed that I owed my parents so much that I should live the life they wanted for me. After divorcing, I blamed myself for not having separated from the church earlier. Even now, I tend to blame myself for wasting time with bitterness instead of jumping back into life like aforementioned friend. I blame myself maybe because I can make myself feel bad and I wouldn't be able to make my maybe-abusers pay for what they've done. I want someone to feel terrible about it.

I thought the stress was going to kill me. So I don't know about abuse, but it doesn't seem like it could be healthy.

[Dr. Pepper]

I go back and forth on this. In the past, my answer was always that it's absolutely child abuse, regardless of the situation. However, there are a lot of variables that matter in really determining whether or not abuse exists. As examples of the difference between abuse and not abuse - Duggar family is absolutely abuse, and worse, it's abuse that is rewarded and even celebrated. The young Canadian girl Gneisenau described upthread, probably not abuse, just based on the limited info I've seen in an article or two.

I'm probably a lot more permissible about how I view fundamentalist parents nowadays because I've encountered many people claiming that raising children atheist is a serious form of abuse and it's something that I'll likely face as I intend to raise my child atheist. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if my father called child services the minute the rugrat dug it's way out of my uterus.

[Warg Arry]

As a person raised by fundamentalists (And I think that word is a kind descriptor) I would say yes. And it is still abusive. As since I have left I have been disowned by my family and isolated from non believing family. As a child I was taken to attend church 3 times a week. 2 hour bible study every other night. (I've had panic attacks sitting at the dining table. Stemming from that. I have an unreasonable fear that I will be trapped there.)

My weekends I was forced to go door knocking. Rain, hail or 50+ (Celsius) degree heat. I was not allowed to socialise with any one outside of the religion. And though I attended public school. Those rules still applied. It was hell and I probably would have done anything to be home schooled over that experience. And then there were the large gatherings. Conventions and assemblies they called them. everyone is expected to sit quietly and take notes as well as look up scriptures. And these would last days. About 8 - 9 hours each day. As a child if I fell asleep I would be taken outside and throttled. If I wasn't taking notes or seemed like I wasn't paying attention I was hit or pinched. To snap me out of my day dream.

It was 24/7 indoctrination. They actually call it "inculcating your children with the truth".

I remember having suicidal thoughts at the age of 6. I always felt like I didn't belong. Felt like I was doomed. They would describe in detail how people who are not of their religion would be killed at Armageddon. I was convinced that was going to be me. I didn't know anything different then.

So the belief was planted into my mind rather than gained.

I try to cope daily with Social Anxiety Disorder. Which has gotten worse from time to time where I can't leave the house. I am very fortunate that I have such wonderful supportive friends and family - on my husbands side. My family are still treating me like I'm dead. Which I suppose given their beliefs is what they suspect is a matter of time for me. ( They believe they will live forever on a paradise earth. Growing to perfection.) Also what has been helpful has been a great support group I found a few years ago.

I have issues. It's a daily process. It's all a side effect.

The thing is you can teach critical thinking skills. And it's better to be done without bringing the religion into it. It's not easy and you may not see results right away. But getting them to think and reason things out can come from asking what they think of something. Help them follow their logic to a useful conclusion without giving them the answer. Asking them questions like. Do you think so? Why do you think that is? How can you tell?

I was taught to be immediately defensive when ever I was told what to think or believe that was outside of what I had already been told was the truth. Being required to think my way through certain thought processes by myself, was a gift.

My science teacher took this approach with me. After my father required me to tell him I wouldn't be learning evolution from him and gave me bible passages to use on him. And told to "witness to him". Well he totally turned it all around on me. Without once telling me what to think or believe.

Asking questions isn't a cure. Especially when your hands are tied and can't directly ask meaningful questions about their religious beliefs.

But it is a place to start.

[Gears of the Beast]

Yes definitely child abuse. As one example, it's not uncommon for indoctrinated children to grow up with such an immense fear of hell, devil, eternal punishment etc that it still significantly affects them even after renouncing their faith and becoming atheists. Which just underscores how damaging indoctrination can be to a developing brain. It's truly sickening and I can't think of anything worse a moral parent could do to their children short of hacking off part of their genitals - which oddly enough is another practice we have religion to thank for. Religion has the power to make moral people do profoundly wicked things.

Information on Religious Trauma Syndrome here.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I consider all religious indoctrination child abuse.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Summah,

Can you please offer a concrete definition of what consitutes "religious fundamentalism"? Until such a definition is offered it would be difficult to parse a normal religious home from one that is religiously "fundamentalist". If you are proposing legal consequences for raising a child in a "fundamentalist" home then such a clear definition would be extremely important. Otherwise it leads to DWS's statement I quote below.

DWS

I consider all religious indoctrination child abuse.

Okay, interesting. Is it your position then that taking a child with you to church, temple, mosque, or any other religious meeting before that child is 18 years old should be considered abusive? What about having books about religion and religious practices around your home, abusive? Saying grace over a meal in public, abusive?

I'm curious how far you would go in promoting the idea that any and all "religious indoctrination" qualifies as child abuse?

[King Blackwood]

Yes definitely child abuse. As one example, it's not uncommon for indoctrinated children to grow up with such an immense fear of hell, devil, eternal punishment etc that it still significantly affects them even after renouncing their faith and becoming atheists. Which just underscores how damaging indoctrination can be to a developing brain. It's truly sickening and I can't think of anything worse a moral parent could do to their children short of hacking off part of their genitals - which oddly enough is another practice we have religion to thank for. Religion has the power to make moral people do profoundly wicked things.

Information on Religious Trauma Syndrome here.

Circumcision is sickening child abuse? I was circumcised, and I came from a loving and free thinking family, which I will always be grateful for.

People get circumcisions for health as well as religious reasons.

[TrueMetis]

Okay, interesting. Is it your position then that taking a child with you to church, temple, mosque, or any other religious meeting before that child is 18 years old should be considered abusive? What about having books about religion and religious practices around your home, abusive? Saying grace over a meal in public, abusive?

I'm curious how far you would go in promoting the idea that any and all "religious indoctrination" qualifies as child abuse?

You have a weird definition of indoctrination.

Circumcision is sickening child abuse? I was circumcised, and I came from a loving and free thinking family, which I will always be grateful for.

People get circumcisions for health as well as religious reasons.

As adults, when they're capable of consent circumcision is fine. Forcing it on children? Not so much. Also the idea that circumcision decreases the chance of getting HIV in any meaningful way is horseshit. Wear a fucking condom, proven to work and proven effective.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TM,

Please, share your definition of "indoctrination". Is taking your child to the church, temple, or mosque where you worship not "indoctrnation"? Is showing your child your devotion to your faith in what your read and study not "indoctrination"? Is seeking the blessing of your deity before a meal not " indoctrination"?

[Gears of the Beast]

Circumcision is sickening child abuse? I was circumcised, and I came from a loving and free thinking family, which I will always be grateful for.

People get circumcisions for health as well as religious reasons.

Yeah, controversial opinion: mutilating the genitals of a child is abuse.

As for the HIV thing. Wow. Where to start? How many infants are at risk of having unprotected sex? I have no problem with a consenting adult doing anything to their body or the body of another consenting adult but cutting part of an infant's body off is not okay. And to your HIV point in general, this is another sinister influence of religion I suspect because what's more effective at preventing HIV? Wearing a condom or permanently removing the foreskin?

[lacuna]

My five cents to ser Scot:

Obviously, you owe it to yourself, your children and the rest of humanity not to belong to a fundamentalist religion/denomination as described by Warg Arry or Eponine upthread. They are damaging for adults, never mind kids.

Secondly, you need to be clear with your children that you don't require them to have faith, and that not feeling it isn't immoral, wrong or dangerous. Tell them your happiness doesn't depend on them having faith, only that they're happy, and that they're free to explore their own sensibilities on the subject. Put simply, teach respect by showing respect. From what I know of you, you're probably doing something along these lines already.

So by all means, bring them to church (or whichever place of worship), at least until they're old enough to stay home alone if they so choose. There can be good and interesting* lessons to be learned there, even if you don't feel the underlying message is for you.

*From a sociological perspective, if nothing else.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lacuna,

When my Daughter was 7 we were on our way to church on a Sunday morning she chimed from her spot in the back seat, "Daddy... is the Bible true?" I answered, "Darling, that's a great question and one your going to have to answer for yourself."

My problem is that if the ideas Summah espouses are adopted without question we could end up with the State endorsing DWS's ideas regarding faith.

[lacuna]

Circumcision is sickening child abuse? I was circumcised, and I came from a loving and free thinking family, which I will always be grateful for.

People get circumcisions for health as well as religious reasons.

This is a contentious subject that has ended poorly in many iterations on this board. What is absolutely clear, and should be made abundantly clear, is that circumcision alone DOES NOT give adequate protection against STDs!

Venturing into the land of opinions, mine is that the only medical reason to circumcise is phimosis, which is what I had done nine years ago, at age 22. Anecdotally, there is a big difference in sensibility after only a few months of being foreskin-free, and trust me, this is not universally beneficial. Hygienically there is no difference whatsoever - it still needs regular cleaning.

ETA:

Ser Scot, and DWS for that matter:

Indoctrinating children is wrong. Teaching faith is... iffy. Teaching about religion is fine. I hate to give such a short answer, but I'm 99 % sure that if I try to expound further, it'll just end up a mess of a post, and it'll be a waste of everyone's time.

[MercenaryChef]

Yes!!!!!

Let's discuss circumcision!!!!!

Woohooo!

[MercenaryChef]

My medically trimmed pecker has more freedom than those shrouded commie dicks!

[karaddin]

Here's another little known fact about circumcision, it makes it harder to perform SRS if your child turns out to be trans which I believe is statistically more likely than the health benefits typically enjoyed due to circumcision. I'm sure it's not a surprise that I'm bringing this up because it was just personally relevant to me, and I have scar tissue from my circumcision impacting my new vagina. My circumcision was performed when I was ~3 due to an infection and was under the advice of medical professionals so I don't blame my parents for it happening, but I question whether this was actually the best medical approach to the issue and whether it would still be performed today (without knowing the infection I doubt it, and it's not something I'm going to be bringing up with my father just after I've had this surgery and my mother died).

As for the OP question, any religious upbringing that includes teaching that any form of sexuality or gender expression is evil is inherently abusive due to the possibility of the child being queer or gender nonconforming. Additionally there are other ways the upbringing can be abusive, such as those discussed by Ep or Warg Arry, personally I think anything upbringing that deliberately stunts critical thinking and limits a childs knowledge of the world is abusive. Simply raising a child with knowledge of a religion, but without the hateful parts and without imposed ignorance, teaching the child to think for themself is OK (so as far as I know you'd be fine in my book Scot, but you better cover your beard - that is obscene!)