Children raised by religious fundamentalists—can this be a form of child abuse?

[protar]

TM,

Please, share your definition of "indoctrination". Is taking your child to the church, temple, or mosque where you worship not "indoctrnation"? Is showing your child your devotion to your faith in what your read and study not "indoctrination"? Is seeking the blessing of your deity before a meal not " indoctrination"?

Depends entirely on whether or not you tell your child that that's the only way of doing something.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Protar,

I'd never do that but others would claim exposing my child to my faith serves to indoctrinate. How could it not?

[protar]

Protar,

I'd never do that but others would claim exposing my child to my faith serves to indoctrinate. How could it not?

Well to be honest it's impossible to not indoctrinate your child in some way or another. Every parent and indeed society in general, raises kids with certain values. No one is raised in a completely neutral environment. So long as those values promote kindness and compassion etc. I don't see the problem.

Now personally I'm rather anti-religion. So even putting aside whether or not religious parents are raising their kids to be good people, it still disturbs me that they're exposing them to something which in my view flies in the face of all science, logic and reason. But the moral factor is the most important thing. Providing you're not sheltering your kids from the facts, and you're allowing them to come to their own conclusions eventually then I think it's fine. I still wouldn't say it's great... but it's fine.

[sologdin]

i find the charge repellent that indoctrination of one's children with one's ideas might be abusive. if anyone here objects, say, to my raising daughter as a post-structuralized marxist dunyain, against you these metagnostic cants are drawn.

[Eponine]

I am not trying to be an asshole, but Scot, can you please not make this thread all about yourself? Instead of interrogating individuals who you think are personally insulting your parenting for pages and pages, because come on, I've seen how this goes, why don't you say your opinion (why some forms of religious exposure are not abusive) and use that to start a general and inclusive conversation about the difference between exposure, pressure, manipulation, household rules, punishable offenses, etc. in which you explain your position instead of asking people to parse theirs with more and more and more detail.

I am asking personally because I personally feel like it's making this thread feel like not a safe place.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Eponine,

:). Okay. Half the fun is seeing how far people will take "religious indoctrination" is abuse. ;)

[sologdin]

dunno. are postmodern bourgeois liberal propositions abusive? they do after all encourage obsessive self-orientation, animalistic individualism, and lack of awareness of anything other than one's own myopic desires. perhaps for one person it is not a big deal, but taken as a universal law, it is a recipe for a neo-hobbesian paradise of a war of all against all. good job, pomobourgylibs?

[zelticgar]

Maybe it is because I live in the northeast but I cant really think of many cases where I have seen religious families cross the line into abusive territory. Tough to know what goes on behind closed doors though. I think getting exposure to religion is a net positive but anytime you have extremist behavior it can be bad. I suppose anything can eventually become abusive.

If I were to rate types of abuse kids can be exposed to I would probably put "religious indoctrination" as pretty far down the list. Lots of other home situations that are more likely to result in abusive situations.

[protar]

Maybe it is because I live in the northeast but I cant really think of many cases where I have seen religious families cross the line into abusive territory. Tough to know what goes on behind closed doors though. I think getting exposure to religion is a net positive but anytime you have extremist behavior it can be bad. I suppose anything can eventually become abusive.

If I were to rate types of abuse kids can be exposed to I would probably put "religious indoctrination" as pretty far down the list. Lots of other home situations that are more likely to result in abusive situations.

What do you mean by this? That it's a net positive to be made aware of other people's religions, or to be raised religiously? I agree with the former, but very much disagree with the latter.

[Malik Ambar]

So let me get this straight: You people would rather tear a family apart, even if the parents love the children and the children love the parents, are being provided for , and don't want to be taken away, and give these children up to child services, just because the religious aspect of their upbringing tends to be fundamentalist?

[zelticgar]

What do you mean by this? That it's a net positive to be made aware of other people's religions, or to be raised religiously? I agree with the former, but very much disagree with the latter.

Its tough to define "raised religiously". I think you hope I mean "raised religiously" like the Duggars so you can be outraged that I would support that type of upbringing. Unfortunately I can only speak for my own experiences and it was much more middle of the road. I realize this thread is more about what i would term "religious wackos" but I think there is a danger here that people will lump in any type of normal religious upbringing in with fundamentalists (especially with the make up of the typical poster on this board).

For context, I was raised catholic in the Boston area. This basically meant going to church for an hour on Sunday, a week every year at catholic summer camp with the priests (made it out without getting diddled by them!), and going through the sacraments up to confirmation. So if that experience defines being raised "religious" then I think it was a net positive over no exposure to religion.

[protar]

Its tough to define "raised religiously". I think you hope I mean "raised religiously" like the Duggars so you can be outraged that I would support that type of upbringing. Unfortunately I can only speak for my own experiences and it was much more middle of the road. I realize this thread is more about what i would term "religious wackos" but I think there is a danger here that people will lump in any type of normal religious upbringing in with fundamentalists (especially with the make up of the typical poster on this board).

For context, I was raised catholic in the Boston area. This basically meant going to church for an hour on Sunday, a week every year at catholic summer camp with the priests (made it out without getting diddled by them!), and going through the sacraments up to confirmation. So if that experience defines being raised "religious" then I think it was a net positive over no exposure to religion.

I'm not saying that being raised religiously is always bad, just that it's a little bit...dismissive of atheism to say that it will always result in a net positive.

[deleted01]

Religion is a big thing for me. When I read stories like some of those upthread, I get mad. In the UK (as in many parts of the world), we're taught to respect and tolerate others and their beliefs. But atheists are not respected in certain circles, and barely tolerated in others. I would never try to tell someone that their god or religion isn't real, but others seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to push their religion on me, and threaten me with eternal damnation when I politely refuse to join them.

Now, to my knowledge, a Christian upbringing over here isn't much to shout about. I know many people who identify as Christian, go to church once in a blue moon, and pray/worship in their own way. Which is completely harmless, in my mind. But when I hear about sex abuse cases, physical violence against children, and other horrors in the name of a religion, I get fucking angry. Everyone has the absolute right to choose how they live their lives, and parents have zero right to force such disgusting shit on their children. So, to me, it is a form of abuse.

Scot's examples are fine. I actually enjoy debating religious topics and learning about different ways of life. I doubt I'll ever change my mind, but if I were to have children, and they decided to become a Christian, that's their decision. I'd only want to make sure they were well-informed of their choice. The idea of hurting my child (or anyone, for that matter), throwing them out and never speaking to them again because they held different beliefs to my own is unthinkable, and something I'll never understand.

[AverageGuy]

I would say that raising one's child in a fundamentalist religion is not abuse in itself. It may at times be used as a de facto justification for actual abuse -- neglect, physical abuse, etc. In those cases, action to remove the child from the environment can and should be taken. But I wouldn't make a more universal statement without some harder definition of terms.

I'm also wary of "critical thinking" claims as self-satisfied bullshit.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Finisher release, beer share, kicken buzz!!!!

:)

Just because you are religious it doesn't mean you can't be fun!

[maarsen]

As a committed atheist, I have to say that there are worse things to teach your kids than religion. My mother in law taught her kids that it is unsafe to put warm food in a refrigerator unless it has been cooled to room temp first. She also hoarded medications to dispense to others after 'diagnosing' their ailments. And no, she had no medical training. Teaching harmless superstitions is better than teaching harmful ones.

[Eponine]

I saw someone up thread mention teaching critical thinking and I've seen this discussed frequently elsewhere. While this is IMO an inherent good, it's not a solution for what the child's dealing with at home and indeed can make things worse for a younger child before things get better. Possibly the least psychologically damaging scenario (besides the one where parents don't force fundamentalism on children) is the one where the child believes until he's in college, or at least high school, has no doubt that he's going to heaven and no real metaphysical disagreements with his parents.

For the minor child at home who has doubts may come excruciating fear of hell, anguish over differing from his parents in such a fundamental way, terror of being found out and of the increased scrutiny and judgement that would result. For me specifically, the fear that my parents would regret adopting me (something that still hurts me maybe more than anything). I started having doubts over one instance of "critical thinking" at 10 (quotations because it was simplistic, befitting a child - I realized that prayer seemed basically ineffective for any non-naturalistic results). Unbelief followed quickly. I was too young to think in terms of "7 more years" (haha) and tied myself in knots trying to rebelieve. What else, salvation prayer OCD inflicted many of my friends.

I'm in no way saying that critical thinking is a bad thing, but what's a child to do with these thoughts that will separate him from his environment in these ways when he's too young to carve out any real indepence for himself - too young to drive or have a job even.

Some sects of fundamentalism advocate physical abuse which is terrible and would be abuse for any motive. Absent that, there are a lot of grey areas, one of the things I'm angriest about now is being taken to anti-choice marches. Forcing children to go door to door feels abusive to me. But it's the burning for all eternity thing that bothers me most. Putting children under that kind of psychological stress combined with completely sheltering them from any influences outside the religious community, so they can't even escape inside.

ETA: oh I got another, gender confusion - fear that I couldn't be the gender I identify as, and I'm cis, it's a completely toxic thing for trans people.

[karaddin]

I'm wary of people being sceptical of the reality of children being raised not to think for themselves, but just uncritically accept the religion of their parents, particularly given we have two personal examples of that in this thread, as self-satisfied bullshit.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kararrdin,

What two examples?

[Eponine]

I would consider non-abusive exposure to religion to be where

1. The child is not completely isolated from any differing views, is not taught that different beliefs or nonbelief is evil. A parent can still teach that their beliefs are good without casting others as evil.

2. The child is not afraid of punishment, either physical, social or metaphysical, for forming his own beliefs. He's not afraid of being shamed or disowned. The parents don't put the psychological weight of having responsibility for their happiness or non-disappointment on him.