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Might Lemore be Wenda?


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Not the first person to broach this idea, but the "milk carton" thread listing Wenda reminded me of it. ETA: All original credit to Fire Eater and Ygrain.



I think it's safe to say that Ashara Dayne and Serra are probably the two most popular theories, but I think they each have their downsides (e.g. Tyrion doesn't note a resemblance between Aegon and Lemore, Ashara would be too young, Tyrion would have noted Ashara's purple eyes, etc.).



So here's an alternative.



Wenda the White Fawn was, of course, a lady member of the Kingswood Brotherhood famed for burning the shape of a fawn into her hostages' posteriors. She comes up several times in the main series: Merrett Frey was once her hostage, Jaime thinks about fighting her band in his youth, Ullmer talks about being a member of the band to members of the Night's Watch, Arya thinks of being like Wenda if she joined the Brotherhood Without Banners. There isn't much to go on but the lady is alluded to often enough to stay in your memory. Likewise, we're meant to question who Lemore really is. Tyrion's curiosity is our curiosity.



The "fawn" part of Wenda's nickname is obvious, because of the branding. But where does the color white come from? Is it possible that Wenda had been in training to become a septa and for whatever reason abandoned the order to become an outlaw? There is a white order of septas; could this be where the "white" originates? She wouldn't be the first woman in the overall story to flee the septa scene. Saera Targaryen did so and also ended up in Essos.



The leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood was Simon Toyne, related in some way to Terrence Toyne, the Kingsguard caught in bed with Bethany Bracken and executed. His kin, Myles Toyne, was a commander of the Golden Company. If Wenda had been forced to flee Westeros after the Kingswood Brotherhood had fallen, it makes some sense that she might try to make contact with Toyne in Essos or think of the Golden Company as a possible safe haven for an outlaw in exile. Her ultimate fate is never explained; that, plus the repeated references to her, is interesting.



What about age? Tyrion pegs Lemore as being a good-looking woman who looks like she's past 40. Simon Toyne (and by extension the Kingswood Brotherhood as an institution) died in 281 AC, roughly 20 years ago. Jaime describes Wenda at the time as being "young and fair." Could a woman described as being young and fair 20 years ago now be a handsome woman past 40? I would say yes.



What Tyrion sees and thinks about her (a "soiled septa") also fits in with the idea of a woman who has knowledge of the Faith but who ultimately washed out. She knows enough to be able to teach Aegon, but there are oddities, like her having given birth at one point (which Wenda could have done at any time after the Brotherhood broke up). The roving, communal nature of an outlaw band (read: bathing where and when you can without expectation of privacy) could also explain Lemore's lack of modesty when she bathes.



Granted direct evidence is scant, but the broad points match up or at least makes sense. And it's a different tack to take than the two usual suspects, neither of whom really fit for me.


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Are we ever given a hair color for Wenda? I thought that she was blond for some reason. That might have been me just picturing her when I was reading though.

I don't think we are given a hair color, no.

The wiki says that it is unknown what her fate was, so I find that to be particularly eyebrow-raising. I like this OP. Seems far more likely than Ashara Dayne

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I'll add some more speculation.



I believe that Wenda had some connection to House Cafferen or their seat Fawnton. If she was a noble woman who ran away or was kidnapped by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she could have been well educated in the Faith, her father might even have tried to force her to become a Septa. But Wenda chose to be some sort of Maid Marianne.



House Cafferen were Targaryen supporters, but changed sides after the defeat at Summerhall a year after the demise of Simon Toyne, maybe Wenda had been influenced by Simon to become a Blackfyre supporter?


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I'll add some more speculation.



I believe that Wenda had some connection to House Cafferen or their seat Fawnton. If she was a noble woman who ran away or was kidnapped by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she could have been well educated in the Faith, her father might even have tried to force her to become a Septa. But Wenda chose to be some sort of Maid Marianne.



House Cafferen were Targaryen supporters, but changed sides after the defeat at Summerhall a year after the demise of Simon Toyne, maybe Wenda had been influenced by Simon to become a Blackfyre supporter?




I think she was a Cafferen as well. Simon Toyne was unhorsed by Rhaegar in a tourney at SE, and it would not have been unlikely for Cafferen's daughter to be there given it was hosted by their liege lord. That could have been where Wenda and Simon met akin to Robin Hood and Maid Marian. However, I also agree with the runaway septa angle given it would fit with the Maid Marian trope (subversion).



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This is interesting and certainly a possibility. The ages match up for sure. If this is true, wht would a former outlaw be doing teaching the Faith to (f)Aegon?

The idea is that she's affiliated with the Golden Company, whose higher-ups (I suspect) would know that Aegon is not Aegon. "Some contracts are written in ink, others in blood," or however it's worded. I think there are people in the Golden Company who know more than Connington, who thinks Aegon is really Aegon and is a stooge. Aegon needs Faith training, so, in comes the failed septa. She works both as a religious tutor for Aegon and as a company plant to keep an eye on things.

I'll add some more speculation.

I believe that Wenda had some connection to House Cafferen or their seat Fawnton. If she was a noble woman who ran away or was kidnapped by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she could have been well educated in the Faith, her father might even have tried to force her to become a Septa. But Wenda chose to be some sort of Maid Marianne.

House Cafferen were Targaryen supporters, but changed sides after the defeat at Summerhall a year after the demise of Simon Toyne, maybe Wenda had been influenced by Simon to become a Blackfyre supporter?

This is what I was looking for, some connection (via a sigil) to an actual house. So of course, the white fawns in the sigil. And the region of the house (Stormlands) fits with where the Brotherhood operated.

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Wenda being a Cafferen would also help Jon Connington trusting her. I think Wenda is not her given name, but one she chose when she joined the KW Brotherhood after the Wendwater river in the Kingswood.


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Wenda being a Cafferen would also help Jon Connington trusting her. I think Wenda is not her given name, but one she chose when she joined the KW Brotherhood after the Wendwater river in the Kingswood.

I also think this. If she was a lord's daughter and kept her name, the scandal of Lady Cafferen fighting with outlaws would be pretty widely renown. That she's known just as Wenda, with no direct tie to the house, suggests it's an alias, and that the epithet and branding are cheeky (pun very much intended) nods to her background. (I still think her running from being a septa would explain a lot and fits better into the story of how she knew enough to teach Aegon, but noting the sigil, it wouldn't be necessary if she is in fact a Cafferen. Nor are her being a failed/runaway septa and a Cafferen mutually exclusive.)

And good catch on the river.

Are we ever given a hair color for Wenda? I thought that she was blond for some reason. That might have been me just picturing her when I was reading though.

The wiki drawing of her is blonde but I did a search and other than her being "young and fair," there's no specific description.

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Nice



Definitely not the first time it's been proposed, but you have made some nice connections. Wenda's cool because she's such a clean slate.



I once started a story where Wenda was actually Aurane Waters' mother (it fits too), and "rescued" Arya from Braavos. The three and their pirated pirate navy would then precede to kick some serious ass. Once I realized how much better this was going to turn out than ASOIF, I abandoned the project for GRRM's sake.

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Ygrain, oh good I must have missed that or glanced at the wrong posts, some seemed familiar (goats ... :lol: ). I had the my ideas from Ragnorak in the Tyrion reread and my investigation afterwards, but some important stuff was missing, like the Toyne connection.



Your demonstration of the build up in the books is very good, almost convincing. I still wonder how the contact with Varys and Illyrio worked and what happened to her child, is it dead? Does she seem to care so much for Young Griff because of that?



Ragnorak sugested that she might have been pregnant before she joined the brotherhood and her father forced her to become a septa because of that, but what if she was pregnant with Simon's child when he died? If Varys had spies in the KW Brotherhood, he could have offered help and hooked her up with Miles Toyne, hmmm... Are there any hints for or against this?


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Ygrain, oh good I must have missed that or glanced at the wrong posts, some seemed familiar (goats ... :lol: ). I had the my ideas from Ragnorak in the Tyrion reread and my investigation afterwards, but some important stuff was missing, like the Toyne connection.

Your demonstration of the build up in the books is very good, almost convincing. I still wonder how the contact with Varys and Illyrio worked and what happened to her child, is it dead? Does she seem to care so much for Young Griff because of that?

Ragnorak sugested that she might have been pregnant before she joined the brotherhood and her father forced her to become a septa because of that, but what if she was pregnant with Simon's child when he died? If Varys had spies in the KW Brotherhood, he could have offered help and hooked her up with Miles Toyne, hmmm... Are there any hints for or against this?

She might have got pregnant a second time, and, yeah, where is the baby?

I think that she was originally dishonoured by a young nobleman, hence her custom of branding high-born captives, and was forced to "take white", ran away later and joined Simon. If she was pregnant by him when the Brotherhood was crushed, I can totally see Arthur Dayne moved by pity towards her unborn child and letting her escape.

I reckon Lemore is someone who grew up in the Stormlands for no other reason than her skinny dipping and Robert`s talk to Ned about the women of Storm`s End skinny dipping in the river. Might seem a thin connection but most reveals in the book are

I think that Robert was talking about the KL women.

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Are we ever given a hair color for Wenda? I thought that she was blond for some reason. That might have been me just picturing her when I was reading though.

The picture on the wiki shows her as blond, that's why, probably. But the books don't say what color her hair is. What might also factor in and influence your perception is the fact she is described as 'fair', which can mean 'pale' or 'pretty'. In that particular context, I'd say it means only 'pretty'.

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The picture on the wiki shows her as blond, that's why, probably. But the books don't say what color her hair is. What might also factor in and influence your perception is the fact she is described as 'fair', which can mean 'pale' or 'pretty'. In that particular context, I'd say it means only 'pretty'.

This - fair can indeed be used to denote attractiveness, or as a more neutral description meaning someone with a pale complexion and blonde hair. Which one this one is, we don't know - but I agree it's most likely simply used to say she's pretty.

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Ygrain, oh good I must have missed that or glanced at the wrong posts, some seemed familiar (goats ... :lol: ). I had the my ideas from Ragnorak in the Tyrion reread and my investigation afterwards, but some important stuff was missing, like the Toyne connection.

Your demonstration of the build up in the books is very good, almost convincing. I still wonder how the contact with Varys and Illyrio worked and what happened to her child, is it dead? Does she seem to care so much for Young Griff because of that?

Ragnorak sugested that she might have been pregnant before she joined the brotherhood and her father forced her to become a septa because of that, but what if she was pregnant with Simon's child when he died? If Varys had spies in the KW Brotherhood, he could have offered help and hooked her up with Miles Toyne, hmmm... Are there any hints for or against this?

imo, Wenda seeking out Myles Toyne on her own, makes more sense than her being in contact with Illyrio and Varys. The Golden Company is probably not that difficult to find... it's more likely that when Varys and Illyrio started looking for 'recruits' to raise fAegon, and create a plausible back story, they contacted Myles to deliver them Jon Connington and Myles did.

Wenda might have been send along because of her being a woman, having a bit of training as a septa, being used to live the rough life, and being a westerosi exile, too.

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