Heresy 148

[Summer Is Coming!]

Since half of the stuff in the WB comes with a built-in disclaimer ("...but we at the Citadel think this tale is bullshit"), I think things like the Bloodstone Emperor represent an opportunity to have some fun with the setting, and maybe let a little bit of his sci-fi roots show, without it being treated as canon. The Emperor being a part of the Long Night, and worshiping a black stone from the sky is sort of sci-fi appropriate-- meteoric impact happens to be one of the things that could scientifically cause Long Night-esque conditions.

And, more broadly, all of these tales reinforce the theme he was going for with the Red Comet in aCoK, where we get several interpretations of the same event, all influenced by personal and cultural biases and legends.

Totally on a tangent, but I'm wondering if the Bloodstone Emperor is also a reference to Karl Edward Wagner's Kane and his bloodstone. Victarion Greyjoy sometimes seems like a send-up of Kane and how ridiculously violent he is.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The Rhoynar claim there was an amazing chorus on their river during the first Long Night, maybe if they add in the Children of the Fores Singers and Jon gets that harp . . .

I noticed that the Rhoynar supposedly sang the long winter/night away. That part of Essos is one of the Hot Spots in Westeros like the Wall or Asshai. I guess the people of Rhoynar lost their connection when they fled to Dorne. Along with the other places and peoples of Planetos that exude magic, I don't see Westeros as the end all be all. How can the magic throughout the other continents not have an affect on the world ecosystem but Westeros alone can have the powers that control everything?

Anyway, who needs Jon and his imaginary harp when we have Tom Sevenstrings that plays a mean harp something like this

Ice on the Mountain, Run, boys, run!

The devil's in the house of the setting sun;

Children's in the bread pan picking out Jo(jen)

Granny, does your wolf bite? No, child, no.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree with this on the whole, but we may see the origins of the darkness. Not the way back when the crazy seasons began but the darkness of the long night of lore. I think we will not see the seasons righted but stories of surviving through it and all the battles and magic wielding that goes with it. And of course on a more personal level- how it affects individuals and what they do to overcome the oppression that is darkness and winter. Wins and losses and stalemates; the outcomes whether they be good or bad and all in between.

Unless all the magical peoples of Planetos join together for a multi-week long round of mystical Kumbayah , but I doubt that will happen.

Maybe we have to shift our perception a bit in terms of humans in Westeros . This is it for them, no one knows what a balance season looks like.They are used to this .If the seasons were to become a bit more even there will probably be a massive die off of flora and fauna.Most humans,the COTF and even the WWs may cease to exist if such a change were to occur.

I was going to make a point on the Planetos-wide links and series of events, then are the timing of the Long Night and the imbalance of the seasons, the same?

Could The Others be seeking to restore the balance of the seasons?, especially if they are trapped in The Land of Always Winter that's attached to Westeros, I'm presuming they previously have had access across Planetos's Arctic regions before whatever tipped off the seasons and with normal winters coming and going, they occasionally went further south, in a nomadic way before returning North again in autumn.

There might not be any great evil involved in that being their motivation, but with the planet being out of synch for so long and no meaningful way to communicate with Men after the Children of the Forest started to diminish in their numbers and territory, leaving the Others only able to use their magic to try and force a solution.

In a sense, it is that the LN is just another indication that the seasons are unbalanced.Westeros is coming out of a long Summer (10yrs) kinda bad too.As to what the Others can do wuth respect the seasons i don't think they can restore or balance the seasons at all.That most likely is not in their power,they are Winter creatures caught up in the same whacky seasonal imbalance like the rest of Westeros.

The Rhoynar claim there was an amazing chorus on their river during the first Long Night, maybe if they add in the Children of the Fores Singers and Jon gets that harp . . .

Yep yep according to them a hero convinced all Mother Rhoyne's children to come together and sing a special song to chase back the darkness.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Maybe we have to shift our perception a bit in terms of humans in Westeros . This is it for them, no one knows what a balance season looks like.They are used to this .If the seasons were to become a bit more even there will probably be a massive die off of flora and fauna. Most humans,the COTF and even the WWs may cease to exist if such a change were to occur.

I've no doubt the story will play out in Westeros but I don't know about the rest of this. The Singers are goners anyway unless they form another Pact with mankind. But how long will that last if Men don't have a change of heart? A long winter doesn't really warm the heart, you know. The white walkers would suffer the most with a lesser winter but they don't need to survive since they are only constructs so...???

[Gilly for the gillyflower]

Anyway, who needs Jon and his imaginary harp when we have Tom Sevenstrings that plays a mean harp something like this

Ice on the Mountain, Run, boys, run!

The devil's in the house of the setting sun;

Children's in the bread pan picking out Jo(jen)

Granny, does your wolf bite? No, child, no.

I love that song. Nicely done.

[Black Crow]

I agree with this on the whole, but we may see the origins of the darkness. Not the way back when the crazy seasons began but the darkness of the long night of lore. I think we will not see the seasons righted but stories of surviving through it and all the battles and magic wielding that goes with it. And of course on a more personal level- how it affects individuals and what they do to overcome the oppression that is darkness and winter. Wins and losses and stalemates; the outcomes whether they be good or bad and all in between.

That's basically what I mean and that this isn't about the origin of the strange seasons and how they might be righted. Its possible we might learn how it happened or it might be left dangling with the simple explanation that its magic. Given that other than the passing of the comet there's not the slightest hint of how the impending Long Night [assuming that it is going to be a biggie] was triggered, I think its probably more likely that rather than being something unleashed by a Great Other, Dread Cthulu or anybody else cackling malevolently behind the rainbow, this Long Night simply represents a peak in a cycle.

The world is as it is and what this story is actually going to be about is what happened last time there was a Long Night and how that's going to be resolved this time around.

[Black Crow]

We're speculating I guess, but in the absence of anything else it's plausible, but how did the last hero win it back? Was it magic sword stuff or a Lann-the-clever type situation? - after all, he's on his own.

Quite; hence the suggestion that although they didn't cause the Long Night, the three-fingered tree-huggers may have taken advantage of it to unleash the walkers and the wights and win back some of the lands they had lost. And that consequently the 13 heroes sought them out to cry pax and that the price paid for that peace has something to do with the Stark family secret.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I love that song. Nicely done.

:cheers:

[Frey family reunion]

Going back to our earlier discussion regarding the Isle of Faces, I came across a passage in ACOK that I found interesting. It occurs while Arya is kept prisoner in a village on the shores of the God's Eye, and the Tickler is questioning the villagers:

They learned that Lord Beric had ten starvelings with him, or else a hundred mounted knights; that he had ridden west, or north, or south; that the had crossed the lake in a boat; that he was strong as an aurochs or weak from the bloody flux.

I think the intention of the passage was to make the reader believed that torturing the villagers was just giving the Mountain conflicting information, but it wouldn't suprise me if GRRM hid a nugget of truth in these stories about Beric's coming and goings. So if the part in bold is true, it may be possible that like Howland Reed and Addam Velaryon before him, Beric may have also made a pilgrimage to the Isle of Faces. Which makes me think of the mantle that he passed down to Catelyn when he gave her his kiss and makes me think of the following passage again:

Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. the steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief?

So if indeed Beric visited the Isle of Faces this passage IMO has a much greater significance. We have Cat seeing her reflection in the antlered green armor standing sentry. Clearly this invokes the legend of the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. So when Cat is returned from her watery grave, is there a possibility that she returns as a being similar to the Green Men who stand sentry at the Isle?

[Summer Is Coming!]

I think the intention of the passage was to make the reader believed that torturing the villagers was just giving the Mountain conflicting information, but it wouldn't suprise me if GRRM hid a nugget of truth in these stories about Beric's coming and goings. So if the part in bold is true, it may be possible that like Howland Reed and Addam Velaryon before him, Beric may have also made a pilgrimage to the Isle of Faces. Which makes me think of the mantle that he passed down to Catelyn when he gave her his kiss and makes me think of the following passage again:

So if indeed Beric visited the Isle of Faces this passage IMO has a much greater significance. We have Cat seeing her reflection in the antlered green armor standing sentry. Clearly this invokes the legend of the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. So when Cat is returned from her watery grave, is there a possibility that she returns as a being similar to the Green Men who stand sentry at the Isle?

I wonder if Addam Velaryon really did go to the Isle of Faces. That seemed like such a strange reference to just toss into the Princess and Queen, but how would the maesters know that he did this? I'm pretty sure Howland Reed did go there because it is Meera who tells about his journey, but I wondered when I first read that if Addam really did go. If so, that would be one of the first instances we've heard of Valyrian fire magic definitely encountering the green magic of Westeros.

It's interesting that no maester apparently ever took the journey to the Isle of Faces to prove or disprove all of the rumors. Of course, that would ruin any surprises in the future books, but it's a bit of "out of sight, out of mind".

[Summer Is Coming!]

So when Cat is returned from her watery grave, is there a possibility that she returns as a being similar to the Green Men who stand sentry at the Isle?

That's a frightening specter to imagine guarding the Isle. I think that with Catelyn we have to remember that there is pretty definitely the magic associated with R'hllor involved and that she represents the dark, absolute nature of some of Melisandre's ideas and magic.

[Frey family reunion]

I wonder if Addam Velaryon really did go to the Isle of Faces. That seemed like such a strange reference to just toss into the Princess and Queen, but how would the maesters know that he did this? I'm pretty sure Howland Reed did go there because it is Meera who tells about his journey, but I wondered when I first read that if Addam really did go. If so, that would be one of the first instances we've heard of Valyrian fire magic definitely encountering the green magic of Westeros.

It's interesting that no maester apparently ever took the journey to the Isle of Faces to prove or disprove all of the rumors. Of course, that would ruin any surprises in the future books, but it's a bit of "out of sight, out of mind".

I don't know why they would have put that in the World Books if it was false. What would be the point? But I do wonder if Addam went there as a Valyrian dragonrider, or as a Velaryon? The Worldbook gives us this little tidbit about Velaryon lore:

Corlys Velaryon became a lord after his grandsire's death and used his wealth to raise a new seat, High Tide, to replace the damp, cramped castle Driftmark and house the ancient Driftwood Throne - the high seat of the Velaryons, which legend claims was given to them by the Merling King to conclude a pact.

Interesting that once again a pact is brought up. I know it's easy to discount the significance of House Velaryon but this was the first Valyrian family to come to Westeros predating House Targaryen. I'm still going back to the idea that the Green Men may be akin to Lady Stoneheart or Patchface.

[Frey family reunion]

That's a frightening specter to imagine guarding the Isle. I think that with Catelyn we have to remember that there is pretty definitely the magic associated with R'hllor involved and that she represents the dark, absolute nature of some of Melisandre's ideas and magic.

But Beric was also pulled out of water before his resurrection as well (like Cat, like Patchface). So we may not just be talking about "R'hollor's" magic. Remember, no one else in the story including any other Red Priest to my knowledge has rescurected anyone except for Thoros. (and for the moment I'm discounting the blue eyed Wights). And the manner that Cat and Beric were resurected is awfully similar to the baptismal rituals performed by Aerion Greyjoy. And speaking of the Drowned Gods, the legend of the Grey King dealt with someone coming back to life fromt he sea and bringing fire with him.

BTW, completely as an aside, apparently GRRM and Chris Claremont (the previous writer of the X-Men comics back in the eighties) are mutual fans. Claremont has on occassion placed some of Martin's books within his comics. Claremont has a famous story of one mutant, Jean Grey, crashing into a Bay only to rise from the Bay as the fiery Phoenix. I wonder if Martin may be giving a bit of a nod with regard to his story of the Grey King (and coincidently both Jean Grey and Cat are redheads).

[Mace Cooterian]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but there is a trailer for Season 5 that has been posted to Rolling Stones. Apparently this was a trailer on the big screen that someone in the audience captured on their phone.

No signs of dragons, but there is a cool scene at the end with Arya standing in front of the House of Black and White, followed by a scene where she is holding Needle. Unless my eyes deceive, it appears that Maisie Willilams has grown quite a bit taller.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/videos/game-of-thrones-season-five-trailer-snakes-revenge-beards-20150130

[JNR]

I don't know why they would have put that in the World Books if it was false. What would be the point?

That's a question I often ask myself about posted World book text, since it doesn't seem it can be true in many cases.

If we have three maesters taking apparently contradictory positions on a topic, at least two of their ideas (that is, the majority) are probably false. Maybe all three are false. And if there's only one story or position on a topic, there's no certainty it's true, and it's not logical to assume that it is.

This same situation applies to the canon. For instance, if we have a handful of different, in-story explanations for X character's parents, they obviously can't all be true. But they can all be false.

[Frey family reunion]

That's a question I often ask myself about posted World book text, since it doesn't seem it can be true in many cases.

If we have three maesters taking apparently contradictory positions on a topic, at least two of their ideas (that is, the majority) are probably false. Maybe all three are false. And if there's only one story or position on a topic, there's no certainty it's true, and it's not logical to assume that it is.

This same situation applies to the canon. For instance, if we have a handful of different, in-story explanations for X character's parents, they obviously can't all be true. But they can all be false.

Fair enough. I actually mispoke and I believe Addam Velaryon's flight to the Isle of Faces is dealt with in the Princess and the Queen. And it does leave a lot of room to question the veracity of it:

Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King's Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men.

The author of the telling seems dubious of the story so I suppose it is correct to question it. Of course my general feeling is whenever the Maesters end up questioning something it's probably true. But regardless it's a weird little footnote to the story, and I'm sure GRRM had a reason for including it.

[Frey family reunion]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but there is a trailer for Season 5 that has been posted to Rolling Stones. Apparently this was a trailer on the big screen that someone in the audience captured on their phone.

No signs of dragons, but there is a cool scene at the end with Arya standing in front of the House of Black and White, followed by a scene where she is holding Needle. Unless my eyes deceive, it appears that Maisie Willilams has grown quite a bit taller.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/videos/game-of-thrones-season-five-trailer-snakes-revenge-beards-20150130

Thanks for the link. As always it makes me forget how disappointed I've been with the show and makes me start to look forward to the next season again. I wonder if they are going to replace Illyrio's appearances in ADWD with Varys. I suppose it would make good financial sense and most of the viewers probably forgot who Illyrio was since he had such little screen time in the first season.

[wolfmaid7]

But Beric was also pulled out of water before his resurrection as well (like Cat, like Patchface). So we may not just be talking about "R'hollor's" magic. Remember, no one else in the story including any other Red Priest to my knowledge has rescurected anyone except for Thoros. (and for the moment I'm discounting the blue eyed Wights). And the manner that Cat and Beric were resurected is awfully similar to the baptismal rituals performed by Aerion Greyjoy. And speaking of the Drowned Gods, the legend of the Grey King dealt with someone coming back to life fromt he sea and bringing fire with him.

BTW, completely as an aside, apparently GRRM and Chris Claremont (the previous writer of the X-Men comics back in the eighties) are mutual fans. Claremont has on occassion placed some of Martin's books within his comics. Claremont has a famous story of one mutant, Jean Grey, crashing into a Bay only to rise from the Bay as the fiery Phoenix. I wonder if Martin may be giving a bit of a nod with regard to his story of the Grey King (and coincidently both Jean Grey and Cat are redheads).

I love where this is going,but i got to say Thoros "resurrecting" Beric was a shocker even to him.It was a simple funerary rite that had an unexpected end.So the magic of the Red Priest may have nothing to do with this.The Water aspect has a nice little hint there in that Patch face didn't have anyone doing any rite over him an he came back so again these 'Priest" may think their prayers may have some effect when it doesn't.But what's interesting is that these elements Water and Fire are all portals divining tools of access you can scry through them.So it possible un knowing to them what their magic did was create a channel/corridor.

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but there is a trailer for Season 5 that has been posted to Rolling Stones. Apparently this was a trailer on the big screen that someone in the audience captured on their phone.

No signs of dragons, but there is a cool scene at the end with Arya standing in front of the House of Black and White, followed by a scene where she is holding Needle. Unless my eyes deceive, it appears that Maisie Willilams has grown quite a bit taller.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/videos/game-of-thrones-season-five-trailer-snakes-revenge-beards-20150130

"Even though we’re making changes to the books and adapting as necessary, we’re trying to keep the various storylines the same as the books and trying to keep them roughly [chronologically] parallel," he said. "And last year, we caught up to the end of Bran’s storyline [in George R.R. Martin’s most recent A Song of Ice and Fire novel, A Dance with Dragons]. So if we pushed him forward this season, then he’s way ahead of where the other characters are."

Great Mother what fresh hell is this?

[wolfmaid7]

I've no doubt the story will play out in Westeros but I don't know about the rest of this. The Singers are goners anyway unless they form another Pact with mankind. But how long will that last if Men don't have a change of heart? A long winter doesn't really warm the heart, you know. The white walkers would suffer the most with a lesser winter but they don't need to survive since they are only constructs so...???

I don't think the wider population is even going to know the COTF are still around.We probably won't see what remains of them out an about making common place with the Small folk.So we can't even bet on them having a pact with "mankind" kind of another problem because what do we get somebody speaking for an entire population,when said population might be un aware of. I keep going back to what Leaf said "in the world that men have made there is no place for us" so the only chance is for the world that men have made to be destroyed.This in part is why i'm not dismissing the seasons reseting and being more even.The people with the best chance at surviving is the Wildlings who have now been seeded into the lands.They are sympathetic humans, accepting of Giants,Skinchangers with reverence for the Old ways,if anything they are the ideal ones with which to enter into any pact with as they were outcasted just like the COTF.

[Frey family reunion]

I love where this is going,but i got to say Thoros "resurrecting" Beric was a shocker even to him.It was a simple funerary rite that had an unexpected end.So the magic of the Red Priest may have nothing to do with this.The Water aspect has a nice little hint there in that Patch face didn't have anyone doing any rite over him an he came back so again these 'Priest" may think their prayers may have some effect when it doesn't.But what's interesting is that these elements Water and Fire are all portals divining tools of access you can scry through them.So it possible un knowing to them what their magic did was create a channel/corridor.

I got the feeling that Beric's Thoros' rite was as much an "empty" ritual as Aerion's baptism, which makes me think that Beric's resurection is not completely dependant on "R'hllor's magic. And of course we have no reason to believe people are getting resurected left and right in Essos where the religion is much more popular. My guess is Thoros' resurection of Beric and Patchface's apparently unassisted resurection means that there may be a common denominator between Thoros and Patchface. But regardless there appears to be a link between fire and water.(Zoroastrianism also seems to link fire and water together a good bit) that is also addressed in the legend of the Grey King.

BTW, after I posted the bit about Jean Grey of X-Men fame, I just happend to go to GRRM's website and found out that Sophie Turner (you may know her better as Sansa Stark) has just been given the role of Jean Grey in the next X-Men movie, Martin seems tickled pink.