Heresy 148

[JNR]

The hot springs might be interesting as a source of heat even in the deepest winter. If the wights are heat seekers, that could become important, though I'm not sure that they are.

If they're heat seekers, the strategy of nailing one with a fire arrow should be very successful.

As to the tetragrammaton, what vowels do the oldest tales so we should insert? Hah.

Good question. I've seen it written "Gurm" on Reddit.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Are we talking architecture or Amputechture

Stains fall into the brick wall severed

Four of them were watching

While the other three did hide

The culprit spat the seed from a podium of glass

Shattering the sigil that you thought was deitized

[MaesterSam]

I think the theory is that people are wrong when they say that humans sleep with others. ITs believed that the explanation 'They lay with others' is just a foolish explanation for the fact that the children are wargs/skinchangers. Its worth noting that traditional use of the expression warg is also associated with calling people half human. In other words, a warg is commonly considered to be half human half wolf.

To summarize, the theory is Humans don't lay with popsicles and the belief that they do arose in order to incorrectly explain the existence of skinchangers.

I would say that was a fair way of putting it, especially as the story comes from Old Nan, who is not exactly the most reliable source on these things. The point I was indeed making was that the terrible half-human children and the wargs and skinchangers are almost certainly one and the same, although the true source of the miscegenation is open to question.

Oh ok, that makes sense. I thought you actually believed that the wargs were human/Other children. Thanks for clarifying, BC and Harlan!

[King Tyrion XX]

If we're making comparisons, there's one we can make that I think illuminates Lyanna's character.

Lyanna and Brienne share a warrior maid ethos, chivalry, the defense of the weak. The obvious difference is Lyanna is described as having a "wild beauty", while Brienne is described as explicity ugly. But we know Brienne is beautiful on the inside, and Martin has themes about the deception of appearances, the misleading/ambiguous nature of phrophecy, etc.

As an aside, I wonder what "her lair" refers to? I'm sure she had quarters at Harrenhal, but it almost sound surreptitious, like a hiding place.

Also, I want to point out, Elia was sickly, but she wasn't ugly by any stretch of the imagination.

It's hardly written in stone that Lyanna was the KotLT.

[MaesterSam]

To be honest I really can't see that the ring of fire is going to be remotely effective.

In the first place it requires an enormous amount of wood - hundreds of thousands of cubic feet simply to fill the ditch between the inner and outer ringwork at the beginning. Once set ablaze this will consume rapidly especially if there's a strong wind blowing, which is likely. At best after a few hours it will require replenishment, and then replenishment again towards morning. Meanwhile the reserve woodpile is of itself a massive fire hazard. Come morning a fire of that magnitude might be allowed to slowly smoulder because extinguishing it will be difficult. Then night comes and it needs to be built up again...

In the meantime all the wights need do is wait. They appear to be good at that and have been waiting outside the cave of skulls for a long time. How long before the wood runs out?

The way I was picturing it, it would be lit more as a last resort, if wights were getting across the outer wall in large numbers. Not that they have a way of doing this, unless the ww's build them some ramps or ladders. Kind of like what Tyrion did with the wildfire- a big, spectacular event to kill large numbers of foes that would otherwise be very difficult to stop.

You are not wrong in saying it couldn't be kept burning for all that long. But it could really help out in a big battle... it could help them survive until the dawn, for example (assuming it's not 10 years away).

And we don't care if the wights want to hang out outside the castle. WF can withstand a siege, as long as someone brings some food before the wights arrive. It's only if they were to attempt to enter that they would need to be burned. And for just a handful, flaming arrows would be enough. But for a large scale attack, with hundreds or thousands of them somehow getting over the outer wall... that would be a good time to light the biggest fire the North has ever seen. :cool4:

I don't mean to just kill the current topic, but did we ever come up with a good theory for explaining why Moat Cailin was in such terrible shape? It never made sense to me. If I was the King or warden in the north, I would be sure to keep and support a garrison of 50-200 men there at all times. Even if the castle itself has become impossible maintain as a self-sustaining castle, as most castles are, because you can't grow crops nearby, it still seems to me that a prudent Stark would always keep it prepared for an assault.

Oh that's quite alright, go ahead and kill it. I think we've beat this one half to death at this point. ;)

Besides, I love discussing Moat Cailin! It's so mysterious and creepy. Who built it, and why? Before the Hammer, its location wouldn't have been all that special- so was it just coincidence that placed it in the narrow part of the Neck that wasn't flooded? Or did the CotF do it on purpose, since they were in it at the time? Why were they in it? Couldn't they call down the Hammer from elsewhere?

I agree, a garrison should be kept there. Unless it doesn't really support life in the long term, kind of like all the black stone places on Essos and Sothoryos.

The architecture is weird too- HUGE black basalt blocks, now strewn about all over the place. What/who could have destroyed it in such a spectacular fashion? We have no legends or records of its history.... :dunno:

I think we're amiss to think the power of Winterfell comes from it's towers or walls. The history/crypts of Winterfell, it's heart tree, and the hot springs are what make it powerful.

I think it's the whole package that makes WF so powerful. It is physically almost impossible to overcome, but then it does also have old magic powers as well. Which in the end may be what save the day, but what good are they if the enemy has killed you before you can use them? I do think the walls are important; they are part of the whole. But I don't disagree with you on the other powers of the castle. Including, but not limited to, the Ghost in Winterfell, those Sleepers on their thrones, and, of course, the dragon. :devil:

[JNR]

It's hardly written in stone that Lyanna was the KotLT.

A true Heretic. Of course :agree:

Besides, I love discussing Moat Cailin! It's so mysterious and creepy. Who built it, and why? Before the Hammer, its location wouldn't have been all that special- so was it just coincidence that placed it in the narrow part of the Neck that wasn't flooded? Or did the CotF do it on purpose, since they were in it at the time? Why were they in it? Couldn't they call down the Hammer from elsewhere?

I agree, a garrison should be kept there. Unless it doesn't really support life in the long term, kind of like all the black stone places on Essos and Sothoryos.

The architecture is weird too- HUGE black basalt blocks, now strewn about all over the place. What/who could have destroyed it in such a spectacular fashion? We have no legends or records of its history....

MC Hammer is such an interesting topic.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

MC Hammer is such an interesting topic.

More interesting than the Dornish Arm & Hammer, for sure.

Either way, I suggest we change the word "Hammer" to "Hamr." The idea of a "Hamr of the Waters" has always rather appealed to me:

"The pre-Christian Norse had two distinct concepts for what speakers of modern English call the body. One is the líkamr (pronounced LEE-kam-ur), the set of vital processes that every human has. The other is the hamr (pronounced like the English word hammer), which literally translates to shape or skin. The hamr is one's form or appearance, that which others perceive through sensory observation. Unlike in our modern worldview, however, that which is perceived by the senses is not absolutely and unalterably true or fixed. In fact, hamr is the most crucial word in the Old Norse lexicon of shapeshifting. The Old Norse phrase that denotes the process of shapeshifting is skipta hömum, changing hamr, and the quality of being able to perform this feat is called hamramr, of strong hamr."

http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/the-parts-of-the-self/

.

[JNR]

Either way, I suggest we change the word "Hammer" to "Hamr." The idea of a "Hamr of the Waters" has always rather appealed to me:

Also suggests, as a replacement Dawn Age, Hamr Time.

[Mace Cooterian]

I think we're amiss to think the power of Winterfell comes from it's towers or walls. The history/crypts of Winterfell, it's heart tree, and the hot springs are what make it powerful.

Couldn't agree more. On the subject of Winterfell, where is redriver when you need him?

[Harlan]

Wow, some of those last posts. lol

In all honesty though, MC just doesn't make sense no matter how I approach it. On top of the things that we know are weird about it, i.e...

1. Its the single best defensive point for the north and yet doesn't have a standing garrison.

2. Its the single most important strategic point if you want to conquer the north, and yet isn't maintained.

3. It features entirely unique Architecture which seems designed specifically to halt an invasion, rather than a normal fortification which is designed for comfort of defenders and protection the defenders, among other things. (such as defensive ability.)

...We also have reports that simply don't make sense. I.E.

1. The Hamr of waters was called down from moat cailin, but the pact was signed on the isle of the gods.

2. Its supposed to predate the pact.

3. CotF didn't build with stone.

...Is there any way all the things we've been told about MC can be true? Is there any way to make sense of claim 1 other than to say that either the Hammer wasn't summoned from Moat Cailin, or the pact wasn't signed on the isle of the gods? I just can't make sense of the place. It doesn't seem to fit.

[Black Crow]

Just to switch back to Winterfell and its crypts, an odd thought occurred to me about their form.

Large stone buildings, even when built on rock need foundations of some kind. The crypts are simply the air spaces between the foundations below the lowest floor level. The point being that allowing for the mass of those foundations they correspond in size or rather area to the building above.

We don't know exactly what the Winterfell "crypts" lie under but the description suggests some kind of tunnel rather than the air spaces under a particular building or building. That aside there's the question of capacity. I've mentioned before the curious business of going very deep and creating multiple layers which are then filled up from the bottom with the Stark dead. Surely by that same logic the first dead lord on a particular level should be interred at the far end of the tunnel with the most recent closest to the entrance. Doesn't make sense.

Similarly why bother? If the "crypt" is not the airspaces under a particular building but just a catacomb-like tunnel or gallery lined with niches for for the dead, then once filled why not drive another gallery out from the hub in a different direction at the same level?

All of which comes back to the central thesis that the crypts are nothing of the sort but the caves of a hollow or sidhe hill and that the ringwork and eventual stone castle of Winterfell was built around it. In other words these caves are not merely a feature of Winterfell, they are why Winterfell was built there in the first place and central to the forgotten family secret

[Frey family reunion]

Wow, some of those last posts. lol

In all honesty though, MC just doesn't make sense no matter how I approach it. On top of the things that we know are weird about it, i.e...

1. Its the single best defensive point for the north and yet doesn't have a standing garrison.

2. Its the single most important strategic point if you want to conquer the north, and yet isn't maintained.

3. It features entirely unique Architecture which seems designed specifically to halt an invasion, rather than a normal fortification which is designed for comfort of defenders and protection the defenders, among other things. (such as defensive ability.)

...We also have reports that simply don't make sense. I.E.

1. The Hamr of waters was called down from moat cailin, but the pact was signed on the isle of the gods.

2. Its supposed to predate the pact.

3. CotF didn't build with stone.

...Is there any way all the things we've been told about MC can be true? Is there any way to make sense of claim 1 other than to say that either the Hammer wasn't summoned from Moat Cailin, or the pact wasn't signed on the isle of the gods? I just can't make sense of the place. It doesn't seem to fit.

I think our mistake is assuming that Moat Cailin was really associated with the Children. Listen to the description of the ruins of the curtain wall when Reek makes his trip there in ADWD:

"Where once a might curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed' others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look like as if they were coated in some fine black oil."

Oily, black rock, sound familiar? Black basalt also appears to be the building material of Sweet Sister's black tower, Night Lamp:

"The guards marched Davos Seaworth across a bridge of black basalt and under an iron portcullis showing signs of rust."

My guess is Moat Caillin was a stronghold of the merlings, or squishers or whatever you want to call them. The same people that left the oil black kraken throne on the Iron Islands. My guess is the magic they used to either raise the waters in the Neck or flood the Arm came from human sacrifice. And I think that the name of the Children's tower did not come from the COTF as the legends now claim, but was where the children were imprisoned who were used in the sacrifices.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Wow, some of those last posts. lol

In all honesty though, MC just doesn't make sense no matter how I approach it. On top of the things that we know are weird about it, i.e...

1. Its the single best defensive point for the north and yet doesn't have a standing garrison.

2. Its the single most important strategic point if you want to conquer the north, and yet isn't maintained.

3. It features entirely unique Architecture which seems designed specifically to halt an invasion, rather than a normal fortification which is designed for comfort of defenders and protection the defenders, among other things. (such as defensive ability.)

...We also have reports that simply don't make sense. I.E.

1. The Hamr of waters was called down from moat cailin, but the pact was signed on the isle of the gods.

2. Its supposed to predate the pact.

3. CotF didn't build with stone.

...Is there any way all the things we've been told about MC can be true? Is there any way to make sense of claim 1 other than to say that either the Hammer wasn't summoned from Moat Cailin, or the pact wasn't signed on the isle of the gods? I just can't make sense of the place. It doesn't seem to fit.

I think it's possible to have these stories all be true. It's possible that its construction predates the Pact because it was partially constructed by the Deep Ones. Even with Moat Cailin being in the middle of the pre-Neck, there could have been a river clan of Deep Ones that start building it and favor its location for some magical reason. This would help identify some of the basalt stones. First Men arrive and like they do with the Hightower and Seastone Chair, they incorporate it into their culture, adding to it construction, which is almost identical to what happens at the Hightower.

We have to have some reason and method for the Children to gather at Moat Cailin, but I think it's certainly possible. They may have also surrounded it and sang in a circle or something, sort of a send up of the Whos in the Grinch. I do like the idea that the Pact was carved, rather than signed, on the Isle of Faces because it supposedly has all of those weirwoods. I'd like to think that one of the First Men, similar to the Stormlanders, tried to carve a rune on a weirwood, saw the mark become a face and really freaked out.

[Summer Is Coming!]

I think our mistake is assuming that Moat Cailin was really associated with the Children. Listen to the description of the ruins of the curtain wall when Reek makes his trip there in ADWD:

"Where once a might curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed' others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look like as if they were coated in some fine black oil."

Oily, black rock, sound familiar? Black basalt also appears to be the building material of Sweet Sister's black tower, Night Lamp:

"The guards marched Davos Seaworth across a bridge of black basalt and under an iron portcullis showing signs of rust."

My guess is Moat Caillin was a stronghold of the merlings, or squishers or whatever you want to call them. The same people that left the oil black kraken throne on the Iron Islands. My guess is the magic they used to either raise the waters in the Neck or flood the Arm came from human sacrifice. And I think that the name of the Children's tower did not come from the COTF as the legends now claim, but was where the children were imprisoned who were used in the sacrifices.

I really like the idea about the Children's tower being a place where they were prisoners, whether of First Men or Deep Ones. I also think the Children could have performed their song as prisoners rather than just being used for sacrifice, similar to the account of a miraculous earthquake in Acts in the Bible when Paul is singing in prison. Surprising error for whoever may have put the Children all together at Moat Cailin.

[Summer Is Coming!]

My guess is Moat Caillin was a stronghold of the merlings, or squishers or whatever you want to call them. The same people that left the oil black kraken throne on the Iron Islands. My guess is the magic they used to either raise the waters in the Neck or flood the Arm came from human sacrifice. And I think that the name of the Children's tower did not come from the COTF as the legends now claim, but was where the children were imprisoned who were used in the sacrifices.

If the Deep Ones were opposed to both the Children and the First Men, there may have been an enemy of my enemy is my ally situation for the Children and First Men. It could almost parallel the way that nobody really likes the Ironborn in ASOIAF, different factions just try to use them for an advantage. I'm hesitant to throw too much credit to the Deep Ones because they've been only ambiguously or tangentially mentioned in the text, but I do like the idea that they are somehow associated with Moat Cailin, even if it may not have been in a marsh before the Hammer (Hamr?).

[Frey family reunion]

I really like the idea about the Children's tower being a place where they were prisoners, whether of First Men or Deep Ones. I also think the Children could have performed their song as prisoners rather than just being used for sacrifice, similar to the account of a miraculous earthquake in Acts in the Bible when Paul is singing in prison. Surprising error for whoever may have put the Children all together at Moat Cailin.

I was thinking more in line of a place where actual human children were kept imprisoned to be used as a sacrifice. But your idea is very intriguing. It would give a new meaning to the phrase "having to sing for your supper".

[MaesterSam]

I think our mistake is assuming that Moat Cailin was really associated with the Children. Listen to the description of the ruins of the curtain wall when Reek makes his trip there in ADWD:

"Where once a might curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed' others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look like as if they were coated in some fine black oil."

Oily, black rock, sound familiar? Black basalt also appears to be the building material of Sweet Sister's black tower, Night Lamp:

"The guards marched Davos Seaworth across a bridge of black basalt and under an iron portcullis showing signs of rust."

My guess is Moat Caillin was a stronghold of the merlings, or squishers or whatever you want to call them. The same people that left the oil black kraken throne on the Iron Islands. My guess is the magic they used to either raise the waters in the Neck or flood the Arm came from human sacrifice. And I think that the name of the Children's tower did not come from the COTF as the legends now claim, but was where the children were imprisoned who were used in the sacrifices.

I like the idea of MC being built by the ancients (Deep Ones, mazemakers.. take your pick), similar to various structures on Essos. Especially since it appears to predate the FM, given that they had no way of building such a structure. (Kind of like those round towers in WF's outer wall, hmmm.)

I don't know why this never occurred to me before, but is it possible that the Children were in their tower - and in Moat Cailin in general- because they were using it to defend the North? I'm not suggesting they built it, but they used it to defend their last unspoiled lands, the North, from the invaders, much like the northmen have been using it ever since. So it would make sense that this was the location from which they called down the Hamr- quite possibly they were surrounded on all sides, and brought the water crashing in to flood everything (much like Garin, hmm). Everything but MC, since that's where they were hanging out.

If we're going to discuss it, we may want to look back at what we know. Here is Catelyn in GoT:

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin... or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers... three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard’s Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

“Gods have mercy,” Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. “This is Moat Cailin? It’s no more than a-”

“-death trap,” Catelyn finished. “I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers.” She gave her uncle a grim smile. “And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood.”

The first thing that stands out to me is that originally, Moat Cailin must have been HUGE. Twenty towers, made of basalt blocks the size of cottages! No way the FM built that. (But whoever built the Wall may have... similar use of blocks, just different materials. The Five Forts, I believe, are described similarly).

It also is mentioned multiple times (in this and other passages) that the blocks - remember, each the size of a cottage- are scattered around like they were tossed there, after being torn off the Children's tower. What in seven hells happened here??? Who or what could have done this?

[King Tyrion XX]

More interesting than the Dornish Arm & Hammer, for sure.

Either way, I suggest we change the word "Hammer" to "Hamr." The idea of a "Hamr of the Waters" has always rather appealed to me:

"The pre-Christian Norse had two distinct concepts for what speakers of modern English call the body. One is the líkamr (pronounced LEE-kam-ur), the set of vital processes that every human has. The other is the hamr (pronounced like the English word hammer), which literally translates to shape or skin. The hamr is one's form or appearance, that which others perceive through sensory observation. Unlike in our modern worldview, however, that which is perceived by the senses is not absolutely and unalterably true or fixed. In fact, hamr is the most crucial word in the Old Norse lexicon of shapeshifting. The Old Norse phrase that denotes the process of shapeshifting is skipta hömum, changing hamr, and the quality of being able to perform this feat is called hamramr, of strong hamr."

http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/the-parts-of-the-self/

.

So Hammer of the Waters= COTF skinchanged the water?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I like the idea of MC being built by the ancients (Deep Ones, mazemakers.. take your pick), similar to various structures on Essos. Especially since it appears to predate the FM, given that they had no way of building such a structure. (Kind of like those round towers in WF's outer wall, hmmm.)

I don't know why this never occurred to me before, but is it possible that the Children were in their tower - and in Moat Cailin in general- because they were using it to defend the North? I'm not suggesting they built it, but they used it to defend their last unspoiled lands, the North, from the invaders, much like the northmen have been using it ever since. So it would make sense that this was the location from which they called down the Hamr- quite possibly they were surrounded on all sides, and brought the water crashing in to flood everything (much like Garin, hmm). Everything but MC, since that's where they were hanging out.

If we're going to discuss it, we may want to look back at what we know. Here is Catelyn in GoT:

The first thing that stands out to me is that originally, Moat Cailin must have been HUGE. Twenty towers, made of basalt blocks the size of cottages! No way the FM built that. (But whoever built the Wall may have... similar use of blocks, just different materials. The Five Forts, I believe, are described similarly).

It also is mentioned multiple times (in this and other passages) that the blocks - remember, each the size of a cottage- are scattered around like they were tossed there, after being torn off the Children's tower. What in seven hells happened here??? Who or what could have done this?

The Hamr of the Waters caused the basalt wall to fall either by force or ground saturation + time. It makes since to me that the towers came up later than the basalt stones.

[Black Crow]

I like the idea of MC being built by the ancients (Deep Ones, mazemakers.. take your pick), similar to various structures on Essos. Especially since it appears to predate the FM, given that they had no way of building such a structure. (Kind of like those round towers in WF's outer wall, hmmm.)

I don't know why this never occurred to me before, but is it possible that the Children were in their tower - and in Moat Cailin in general- because they were using it to defend the North? I'm not suggesting they built it, but they used it to defend their last unspoiled lands, the North, from the invaders, much like the northmen have been using it ever since. So it would make sense that this was the location from which they called down the Hamr- quite possibly they were surrounded on all sides, and brought the water crashing in to flood everything (much like Garin, hmm). Everything but MC, since that's where they were hanging out.

If we're going to discuss it, we may want to look back at what we know. Here is Catelyn in GoT:

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin... or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers... three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard’s Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

“Gods have mercy,” Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. “This is Moat Cailin? It’s no more than a-”

“-death trap,” Catelyn finished. “I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers.” She gave her uncle a grim smile. “And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood.”

The first thing that stands out to me is that originally, Moat Cailin must have been HUGE. Twenty towers, made of basalt blocks the size of cottages! No way the FM built that. (But whoever built the Wall may have... similar use of blocks, just different materials. The Five Forts, I believe, are described similarly).

It also is mentioned multiple times (in this and other passages) that the blocks - remember, each the size of a cottage- are scattered around like they were tossed there, after being torn off the Children's tower. What in seven hells happened here??? Who or what could have done this?

I certainly think that the descriptions in the World Book of the various other structures of black basalt are intended in large part to take away the uniqueness of this structure and the way how Catelyn speaks of Eddard's [not Robb's - my bad] confidence that even as a ruin it was an extremely strong position I think lends weight to my suggestion that it was ruined long long ago, and indeed the existence of a long-rotted wooden keep, I'd further suggest does not represent the origin of the stone castle but rather an attempt to camp out in the ruins and eventually rebuild the place and that it has otherwise no connection with the stone castle, far less its unknown builders.

The question which then arises is whether there is going to be any significance to this and the other mysterious structures which will revealed and may impact upon the story later or whether its all part of the unknowable mythos forming the background to the story. Yes there are these mysterious structures, some may even be said to have been raised by Bran the Builder, but whoever did it in truth is long gone, never to return and instead they simply serve as something to tell tales about:

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.