Brandon the Builder, master of smooth, black stone?

[Asshat by the Shadow]

where did it say there was black stone in winterfell?

I don't think it's specifically mentioned anywhere. But if my theory of Brandon learning how to construct using fused black stone is true, then it would make sense that he would use the same techniques in Winterfell, particularly in the construction of the labyrinthine crypts.

[jmacdizzle]

But in twoiaf they tell of all the places that contain the black stone and winterfell is not one of them. Plus didn't it say that in yeen and asshai the men get sick or something? And it said that children can't survive in asshai because of the abundance of the oily black stone. The Starks go in the crypts all the time. I would like to know where the seastone chair was found.

[TheSovereignGrave]

But in twoiaf they tell of all the places that contain the black stone and winterfell is not one of them. Plus didn't it say that in yeen and asshai the men get sick or something? And it said that children can't survive in asshai because of the abundance of the oily black stone. The Starks go in the crypts all the time. I would like to know where the seastone chair was found.

The Seastone Chair chair was found on Old Wyk. Plus not all of the oily black stone makes men sick; for example the Seastone Chair and the idol on the Isle of Toads. It seems like only extensively massive constructions like Yeen do. I do agree that Winterfell probably doesn't have any of the black stone.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I hadn't really thought about BtB being half-CotF, but I assumed CotF blood found its way into the Stark line somewhere along the way, to make human greenseers possible. I like that explanation, as it simplifies the reports of BtB being a child.

I definitely like the idea of it a lot better than Brandon the Builder being a time travelling series-era Bran Stark.

[LmL]

I believe that there is another possibility:

Because of the close association of Winterfell to the weirwoods, (being called at one point "a monstrous stone tree") as well as the Starks to the Last Hero to the CotF, I believe in fact that the Builder was greenseer. In fact, I believe that the Stark family as we see it now is comparable to a literal tree.

Consider this: Bloodraven told Bran that it was the Singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven, but in the old days the ravens spoke the words. This is strongly suggests that many First Men were skinchangers and even had powers of greensight.

I believe that as he grew older, the Builder physically bound himself to the tree to extend his love, as Bloodraven has done, to continue his work. That's why he and other kings of the era were said to reign for hundreds of years. Because they did.

Hey did you write that article about the tree symbolism you linked to? Fabulous. Just wanted to say that. And yes, the more we dig into the layers upon layers upon layers of symbolism, the more blown away we are the depth of the writing here. Freaking A.

[LmL]

<snip>

Yandel is definitely wrong here. Brandon the Builder was a hybrid of human male-CotF female and his father was the LH. Because of his CotF mother, he had a short stature (which is why he was mistaken for a child) and a very long life that spanned many human generations.

If he was half COTF (seems very possible, given the height and potentially long lifespan), he probably wasn't a greenseer, because as you said below while likely proving (in my opinion) that the founder of the Citadel was half CotF, greenseers have short lives and are not hardy. Just an observation. I love reading this thread. I'll try not to duplicate stuff people have said. Great thread, everyone.

The first “high tower,” the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

It was definitely Brandon the Builder who built the first stone Hightower. Before that, there were 4 wooden Hightowers. One might ask whether those wooden Hightowers collapsed from natural causes or were destroyed by the CotF, especially if they were built from weirwood. But after the construction of the first stone Hightower there seems to be a close relationship between Hightowers and CotF/Old Gods.

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to “Peremore’s pets,” that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.

Peremore the Twisted was a greenseer and he founded the Citadel along with his brother. They were the sons of Uthor of the High Tower, who was a collaborator of Brandon the Builder. In this thread, I further explored a curious relationship between the Citadel and the CotF.

I'm assuming you covered the fact that we are told that some Maesters lived with the CotF, presumably the first Maesters. There's also tons of links to proto-Starks in the reach.. Oh I'll just go read your thread. I sure you noticed it.

[LmL]

I don't think it's specifically mentioned anywhere. But if my theory of Brandon learning how to construct using fused black stone is true, then it would make sense that he would use the same techniques in Winterfell, particularly in the construction of the labyrinthine crypts.

Hey Asshat by the Shadow, great thread, and great name. You've really got me thinking about places where more black stone may be hidden, and you pulled some nice quotes that had slipped by me.

Three major structures built by Brandon the Builder--the Hightower, Storm's End, and the Wall, all with a foundation of stone, one of which is certainly black fused stone, one of which is implied by Melisandre that it may be black stone, and one that is only vaguely purported to be "stone," respectively.

That's good logic, Martin offers uses this property of transference to hide clues. I.E. "Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna." Wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find black stone under the Wall and Storms End. Probably not the greasy stuff though.

I hadn't really thought about BtB being half-CotF, but I assumed CotF blood found its way into the Stark line somewhere along the way, to make human greenseers possible. I like that explanation, as it simplifies the reports of BtB being a child.

The problem with that is that COTF don't build, that we know of. I suppose a hybrid can be whoever he wants, though. If Bran the Builder as half-CotF was using fused black stone technique, that would have truly mind-blowing repercussions for Proto-Valyrians. Seems a stretch, but it's possible... but another crazy possibility is that the guy we know as The Builder was a proto-Valyrian, in which case he did build the Hightower base. I do think the Dayne's were founded by the proto-Valyrians who built the Hightower base. Brandon is given credit for the first real tower built ON TOP of the fort - not the base. We are told the base has been there as long as anyone knows. And we are told Dragons may have roosted there.

I thinks it's clear that we have at least two different types of black stone construction, if not black stone itself.

The fusing seems to be the work of the proto-Valryians (Golden Empire of the Dawn, imo) who seem to build utilitarian, if slighty strange structures - the Hightower fortress' "plain, unadorned style of architecture" is notably un-Valyrian. The tunnels are described as confusing, but that could have a defensive function. I *think* what we hear of the five forts matches this - fused stone, utilitarian design, a bit strange (why so tall? What's inside?). The five forts seem likely Proto-Valyrian as well, and make sense as an analog to the wall, protecting the Golden Empire of the Dawn from the baddies that lie beyond (those winged men get such a bad rap!)

The greasy black stone (bloodstone) either comes in large to very large slabs, like the Seastone Chair and Isle of Toads, or else it is quarried in massive blocks, as in the case of Yeen and Asshai. I suspect it is magically radioactive, for reasons to long to go into here. The more black stone, the more corrupting it's influence:

- Seastone chair is the smallest, and the Ironborn are a bit twisted. They also aren't big into farming - "we do not sew." Obviously we don't see any plants near the Seastone chair on Pyke.

- The isle of Toads, well, we don't know about any plants growing there, and the people that live there are definitely twisted, having an "unpleasant, fish-like aspect" - although that could just be racism, man! You have to use property of inference, but we know that their is stone ruins on 3 of the basilisks isles: Tears, Toads, and Ax. We are told a pirate used "the stones he found on Ax Isle to erect a grim black fort, which wasn't inhabited very long. But we know the ruins are black stone - we aren't told if is greasy or not. The statue in the Toad isle IS greasy black stone (bloodstone). The isle of Tears has Gorgossos, formerly Gorgai (note the -ai suffix), where "blood sorcery of the darkest sort was practiced, as beasts were mated to slave women to bring forth twisted half human children." Those hybrids may or may not be the fish-like people, but there's definitely a lot of corruption and dark magic happening here.

- Asshai, I probably don't have to say it. No plants save ghost grass, the river Ash "glisten with a pale green phosphorescence by night, and such fish as swim in the river are blind and twisted, so deformed and hideous to look upon that only fools and shadow binders will eat of their flesh." Those fish sound a lot like they have suffered radiation poisoning. As for people in Asshai - all dark magician, which we've seen don't need to eat and have enhanced lifespans due to dark magic.

The Bloodstone Emperor worshipped the greasy black stone that fell from the sky, did all sorts of evil deeds (gotta love that Church of Starry Wisdom!)... But we aren't told where the stone that he worshipped fell from the sky, or how big it was, so it's hard to draw any conclusions there except that it might have enabled dark magic.

It seems that the fused stone is made from a different black stone, or, the process of fusing (likely with dragon flame) purges the bad ju-ju from the stone.

If anyone would like to poke holes in that classification, feel free.