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Varys intentions question


jwkdude

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It's been proven (or at least generally agreed upon, because nothing anyone says in ASOIF can be taken at face value) that Varys supports house Targaryen/Blackfyre ruling in Westeros. I thought of a question when I was reading forum posts here, why did he "poison" the mind of King Aerys II? Its been stated by several character (Stannis, Barristan, probably more) that Varys whispered treason in Aerys' ear, made him convinced that Rhaegar was plotting against him (this may be true, but honestly a Rhaegar scheme would be good for House Targaryen), and also escalated the crisis. Why would a supporter of House Targaryen help spark the conflict that left possibly 5 Targaryens dead and ruined their house?



note: I firmly believe that Rhaegar didnt begin plotting against Aerys until after he went pretty cray/paranoid, so after Varys got there.


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It's been proven (or at least generally agreed upon, because nothing anyone says in ASOIF can be taken at face value) that Varys supports house Targaryen/Blackfyre ruling in Westeros. I thought of a question when I was reading forum posts here, why did he "poison" the mind of King Aerys II? Its been stated by several character (Stannis, Barristan, probably more) that Varys whispered treason in Aerys' ear, made him convinced that Rhaegar was plotting against him (this may be true, but honestly a Rhaegar scheme would be good for House Targaryen), and also escalated the crisis. Why would a supporter of House Targaryen help spark the conflict that left possibly 5 Targaryens dead and ruined their house?

note: I firmly believe that Rhaegar didnt begin plotting against Aerys until after he went pretty cray/paranoid, so after Varys got there.

i think that's not really true it seems like for all of the reason we cannot rely on the world of ice and fire books that Aerys was going crazy beforehand i think i blame crazy on the maesters if it was not natural or maybe they helped push it. i think varys gets the blame cause he is an outsider and different. look at how blackfish doesn't trust Jon Snow.

there is also maybe he might not support targaryens but the blackfyres so bringing down targaryens makes sense?

there is of course another idea that he supports the general well welfare of the realm dis trust magic and dislikes that the Prince was talking about magic prophecies and wars.

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Why would a supporter of House Targaryen help spark the conflict that left possibly 5 Targaryens dead and ruined their house?

Because he's not actually a supporter of House Targaryen. I subscribe to the theory that he is and always has been on Team Blackfyre. And no they're not the same.

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It could be that Varys poisoning Aerys mind was Rhaegars idea. Rhaegar was, to me anyhow planning to take the throne. Aerys madness would have been the obvious way to sell this take over to the Lords of Westeros.

Would explain why Varys is helping Aegon, without going into the Blackfyre conspiracy.

Varys was playing a role.

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It could be that Varys poisoning Aerys mind was Rhaegars idea. Rhaegar was, to me anyhow planning to take the throne. Aerys madness would have been the obvious way to sell this take over to the Lords of Westeros.

Would explain why Varys is helping Aegon, without going into the Blackfyre conspiracy.

Varys was playing a role.

I could see that. "hey this is my job. "

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It's really hard to say what exactly he was telling Aerys. IF he truly told him that Rhaegar was planning to depose him AND Varys truly wanted a competent Targaryen King to rule, the easiest way to reconcile those two would be if his whispers to Aerys were meant to make the King antagonize his son, and thus push Rhaegar even more toward rebelling. Maybe because Varys knew that he had a lot of influence over Aerys, but little over Rhaegar.



But then again, we don't really know for sure if either of those premises are true.


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But... but...

What about what JonCon allures to that fAegon is to pick uo Dany so they can conquer Westeros together? Varys would certainly be involved in this! But if so, why did he send someone to assassinate Dany? And what was the plan while Viserys was still in play?

:confused:

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we dont really know what to trust with varys but i always thought he was telling the truth when he gives his 'for the good of the realm' talks. there is some evidence that plans were being put in place to overthrow aerys and put rhaegar on the throne earlier. everyone thought that rhaegar would be a really good king and im sure varys thought the same. then all the events that lead to roberts rebellion happened and that kind of ruined everything.



it should be noted though that varys tried to convince aerys not to open kings landing to tywin. i wouldnt doubt varys did make him paranoid about rhaegar but i think he had the notion of doing so might help the cause of putting rhaegar on the throne sooner because, well, rhaegar was better for the realm.


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It could be that Varys poisoning Aerys mind was Rhaegars idea. Rhaegar was, to me anyhow planning to take the throne. Aerys madness would have been the obvious way to sell this take over to the Lords of Westeros.

Would explain why Varys is helping Aegon, without going into the Blackfyre conspiracy.

Varys was playing a role.

Except that it was Aerys' distrust of Rhaegar that PREVENTED Rhaegar from taking over. If Rhaegar wanted to take the throne, he should have had Varys manipulate Aerys into thinking letting Rhaegar take over would be a good idea. In actuality, the opposite happened: Varys whispered and fed into Aerys' paranoia.

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But... but...

What about what JonCon allures to that fAegon is to pick uo Dany so they can conquer Westeros together? Varys would certainly be involved in this! But if so, why did he send someone to assassinate Dany? And what was the plan while Viserys was still in play?

:confused:

Dany is a means to an end and useful to them only insofar as she helps Aegon take the throne or props up his legitimacy.

As for the Targ siblings, take your pick. Varys might have thought Dany dying would compel Drogo to invade. And I think Illyrio used reverse psych to get Varys to join the Dothraki, knowing he probably wouldn't survive.

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Why does everybody assume he MUST support certain house and it must remain the same house for his entire life? Nobody discusses why Petyr Baelish didn't remain loyal to House Tully / Arryn / Baratheon...



Varys is an essosi spymaster, he doesn't work for any single house, he works for himself. Turmoil in the Seven Kingdoms means opportunities - to get his own people on important positions, for example. Here's what Tyrion thinks of Littlefinger and his work as Master of coin: "And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King of Scales were men he named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, custom sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large, merchant's sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from the results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.


No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone." (ACOK, Tyrion IV)



Varys probably did the same, positioning his spies wherever he needed them. A mad king would approve and help his actions, allow a lot of power and/or money be given these people and, by extension, Varys. Note that he is still very much in control of the information that flows to Cersei during AFFC and ADWD, even though he is not present in the small council. His spy network is still reporting to him.



Varys is probably involved in the fall of the Targaryens in a more direct manner - Stannis to Davos in ASOS, Davos IV: "The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead.". Interesting that Jon Arryn saved the life of a political nobody, against the will of the Lord of Winterfell. Why was Varys' life so important? Jaime had to live to ensure the support of the Lannisters, but Varys?! And anyway, why was the Master of Whisperers still in the Red Keep? Expecting patiently his execution?



The Spider supports those, who are powerful and those, who might become powerful soon. Even if he has some Blackfyre blood, he probably only uses it to gain trust and fake being loyal to their cause. But he would betray them, if that serves him better, as he has betrayed everybody else he worked for.



A last thing to consider the Golden Company is NOT supporting Blackfyre at the present moment. They are, as Jon Connington says: "Ghosts and liars…Revenants from forgotten wars, lost causes, failed rebellions, a brotherhood of the failed and the fallen, the disgraced and the disinherited. This is my army." and earlier, Illyrio says to Tyrion: "Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home". During the Targaryen reign, the "exiles" would be Blackfyre supporters. But when the ruling power is Baratheon, it's former Targaryen loyalists who had to flee. So I guess the majority of the leaders of the GC are people like Jon Connington (anyone thinking he is a Blackfyre?), who lost their lands and wish to take them back. They fight against Baratheon, Stark, Lannister and Arryn, who robbed them, not Targaryen.


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Why does everybody assume he MUST support certain house and it must remain the same house for his entire life? Nobody discusses why Petyr Baelish didn't remain loyal to House Tully / Arryn / Baratheon...

You say remain as if he was ever actually loyal to any of them in the first place.

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You say remain as if he was ever actually loyal to any of them in the first place.

That's exactly what I mean! Neither Littlefinger, nor Varys were ever working for a certain house. They work for themselves. Their goal is power and their main and only intention is to gain and keep it. Not to place a Blackfyre on the throne or something.

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That's exactly what I mean! Neither Littlefinger, nor Varys were ever working for a certain house. They work for themselves. Their goal is power and their main and only intention is to gain and keep it. Not to place a Blackfyre on the throne or something.

Agree to disagree then.

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But... but...

What about what JonCon allures to that fAegon is to pick uo Dany so they can conquer Westeros together? Varys would certainly be involved in this! But if so, why did he send someone to assassinate Dany? And what was the plan while Viserys was still in play?

:confused:

Varys frustrated the attempted assassination, by getting a warning to Ser Jorah.

At this stage, I'm not sure what he and Illyrio had in mind for Viserys.

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Varys frustrated the attempted assassination, by getting a warning to Ser Jorah.

At this stage, I'm not sure what he and Illyrio had in mind for Viserys.

Well Viserys was dead by the time the assassination attempt went off.

While it's true that Varys tipped off Jorah, it had to be a situation where Varys could have continued whether the assassination worked or not. There was always the risk that Jorah wouldn't be able to stop it; he almost didn't. Varys could have not sent one at all and just lied to Robert, saying the guy failed.

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My top question about Varys is what kind of fast-talking did he do to not only survive the transition from Targaryen to Baratheon rule, but maintain his post and title.



I don't know of a clear timeline of when Varys arrived in the Red Keep and when Tywin resigned as hand, but it is possible that there was some overlap that could have given Varys some influence with Tywin. Otherwise, he must have had some dirt on someone, maybe even Robert, to avoid the headsman.

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Who said he really poisoned Aerys mind? It was said by Barristan that Aerys began being mad after Duskendale incident.



Varys was only whispering to Aerys the truth:


1) That all other lords are plotting to overrule the Targaryen regime


2) That his son Rhaegar was plotting to overrule Aerys rule



Both were true and both were learned by Varys "The Spy Master". Aerys brought Varys from Essos so that he could spy for him. So Varys did. And told the king everything he found out.



1) This plot was orchestraded by maesters and Hightower conspiracy to remove Targaryens once and for all by uniting all other high houses. They planned a web-marriage alliances between Baratheon-Stark-Tully-Lannister in order to create unity and big strength.


2) Rhaegar was plotting with Arthur Dayne to have Lyanna and the "promise child" cause he believed in the prophecy. There were also Gerold and Oswell. Gerold is from Hightower = probably another of Hightower influcences.



Both means that Hightower and maesters were plotting to make Rhaegar go against Aerys, and Aerys against Rhaegar which ultimatively was to lead to a great war between the 4 forces (Baratheon-Stark-Tully-Lannister) and Targaryens.



The plot was about to happen during the tourney of harrenhall: who attended? Well, Stark, Lannister, Tully, Arryn, the KG, and Rhaegar. Prince was plotting to have a council which would determine his rule after Aerys death. Aerys himself was not expected to appear because after Duskendale incident he never left King's Landing. But he appeared (cause Varys informed him about what was going on, that the tourney was a pretext for Rhaegar to plot against him). So Aerys appeared, made Jaime into Kingsguard and by that he disturbed a little bit the great plan (Barristan, ADWD). Varys intervention destroys the scheme, but also reinforces Aerys paranoia - Imagine you are Aerys and you think that everybody is plotting against you, but no one believes it and calls you a crazy. You become more crazy then.



What happened afterwards we all know - Rhaegar runs with Lyanna, Brandon goes to Aerys and threatens his life, Rickard comes to KL to answer for his son, both are executed, But then 3 of KG are not here. Where are they? They are loyal to Rhaegar and went for ToJ which also made Aerys more paranoic. Afterwards the war started with Lannisters joining late (cause of the Jaime incident). Rob and Ned were young and went straight to destroy what they thought of "the malicious people". In fact Rob and Ned were not plotting anything - it was all orchestraded mostly by maesters / Hightower using the old lords to have them placed in correct places, have right marriages, have old lords foster right children.



So overall no - I believe that Varys did his job and informed Aerys about what was going on. It was his duty to spy and he did spy and informed. That's all. He was a Targaryen loyalist from the start. But of course no one believes now that there was any plot. Only Barristan might remember some things but he still considers it was Aerys'a fault and madness which deepened after Varys's whispers - It's true too, but those whispers WERE NOT LIES. All people who had anything to do with the plot died during the war.


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the Targs were inbred for centuries. that alone accounts for his madness. Then there is the God's coin flip anecdote about the Targs. Varys was brought in by Aerys because he needed a MOW that had not ties to the kingdom and thus no agenda other than his job and varys did his job exceptionally well. That alone "fed his madness." As to who varys "supports" in the end, from what we have been told he rescued the heir to the kingdom at the last minute and then maintained a plot for a decade and a half to put said heir on the throne. Then there are all the bastardfyre hints so that may be a thing but as of now they are only hints.


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