Controversial opinions on characters

[INCBlackbird]

This is a good starting point but unless it's followed by them making up for the bad things they did and/or at least refraining from doing such bad thing in the future, it is just self-pitying waffle. Especially if you just end up justifying your evil and insisting you're not really at fault because reasons.

true yes, but I think that people who genuinely feel regret will do this automatically. Theon is the perfect example of this, he's filled with regret thoughout the whole thing in winterfell, he constantly tries to justify him on the inside cause the guilt is nagging at him (something that I do when I feel guilty) but he KNOWS it's wrong. When you feel really guilty, that feels horrible and only a good person is capable of that. said person will than create a moral code based on what feels wrong and they won't do it again. which is exactly what Theon did. and he's not even saving Jeyne to make up for his past deeds, cause you can't exactly make up for killing people. but he strongly identifies with her. he's doing it because he WANTS TO help her, not because he wants to feel better about what he did before.

so the justifying your evil thing is kinda double in my opinion, it strongly depends on how it happens. usually when people start justifying they're trying to get rid of this horrible feeling of guilt. but yeah, you can also do the justifying that Cersei does which is basically "this person isn't worth anything anyway because I don't need them" that's justifying with no empathy and she won't learn anything from it because she's incapable of learning because to Cersei she is the centre of the universe and everyone else are pawns to be used.

[INCBlackbird]

Or he`s a jerk. If you paste the link of GRRM expressing your opinion i may change my mind

I do not follow what GRRM says about his characters, I have something called reading comprehension.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I do not follow what GRRM says about his characters, I have something called reading comprehension.

Characters are left ambiguous for readers to make their own mind up. I would imagine and hope every reader comprehends what they are reading,in their own way That doesn`t mean everyone has to draw the same conclusion as you. I respect your opinion and hope although you strongly believe your opinion to be true that you can respect mine and any other opinions on the subject.

[INCBlackbird]

Characters are left ambiguous for readers to make their own mind up. I would imagine and hope every reader comprehends what they are reading,in their own way That doesn`t mean everyone has to draw the same conclusion as you. I respect your opinion and hope although you strongly believe your opinion to be true that you can respect mine and any other opinions on the subject.

certain things are left ambiguous yes, but not this. it's the most obvious thing ever... we also get to read Theon's pov's and it's clear that he was scared. his reaction is very obvious and it doesn't just happen with this. every time he's smiling he's hiding another emotion, it's an extremely common defense mechanism...

[Tynned Lannistark]

I think people tend to sympathize with victims of tragedies and injustice but being a victim are not necessarily good people.

In books the usually are, but not in this book.

Jaime had an aspiration to be noble and honorable. He failed miserably. Mostly due hypocrisy and double standards of society. The thing he is most despised for is his greatest act. The principles of chivalry and even the knights he looked up to were all a huge disappointment (including the admired Arthur Dayne who watched Aerys' madness and cruelty and did nothing).

So what. He still pushed a boy out of a window.

If anything his being a jerk has more to do with Cersei and less with his disappointments.

Theon is a much more tragic character. He always had it bad. He grew up with the Starks, learned to love and respect them , yet he was their hostage , always. He went back home only to be mocked and ignored by his father. He kept loosing again and again even before his ordeal with Ramsay. He had a tough time, even before Ramsay.

But he was still a jerk. And he did awful stuff. He is not so much reformed as he is a broken man. And being broken took his jerkness away and left only his kinder sides. Broken Theon is a good man, he doesn't have the strength to be evil. I agree that his rescuing of Jeyne is not just a good act but pretty much heroic (for a person in his mental condition).

Original Theon was still a tragic character but not a good person. He was always brave though.

Ned is a good guy. Never got why people think differently. He is also not stupid. Not the best politician but not stupid. He was manipulated. Even the mighty Tywin was manipulated. He had his low moments as well. a big one is his hypocrisy about Jaime and Robert.

Jaime killing Aerys is a terrible crime to him, even though he knows what Aerys was.

But Robert supporting the murder of Elia and her babies, though it pisses him off , doesn't make him think less of his dear friend Robert.

About LF - I think there is a point to what the OP was saying. He does seem to have a conflict between wanting to be a father figure for Sansa (probably due to his feelings to cat) and trying to get into her pants.

Maybe he has a conflict between his morale sense and the fact he doesn't have one :)

[The Wolves]

Jaime: He's not a good guy at all never was. He's a monster who tried to murder and maim two children mindlessly. Than he orders the murder of a few men to teach Ned a lesson that IS NOT a good man, that's a cruel and evil person. I don't get why people focus on Jaime's time with Aerys saying he was traumatized because he wasn't not to the point where we see him so focused on his sister's vagina that he cares about little to nothing, he doesn't care about his children, Westeros, his king, brothers or the Lannisters. Jaime is a grown man who couldn't see past his penis he's had it so much better than many many many people in Westeros he is the architect of his own hell.

Lancel: He's a selfish cowardly little punk he should be hated on by everyone

Theon: I don't have any positive opinions on Theon I hate that he sacked Winterfell but that's not why I hate him. I have zero tolerance towards people who kill children and Theon is no exception. I understand a lot of his actions but I don't like him.

[Kaminsod]

I don't believe Tyrion is the incarnation of all that is evil. He's certainly done questionable things, but i think he receives more flak because he's less then likable in aDwD, so readers are less forgiving. But his brother has done just as many, if not more reprehensible acts, but is touted as "on a path to redemption" or other such nonsense.

Jaime: He's not a good guy at all never was. He's a monster who tried to murder and maim two children mindlessly. Than he orders the murder of a few men to teach Ned a lesson that IS NOT a good man, that's a cruel and evil person. I don't get why people focus on Jaime's time with Aerys saying he was traumatized because he wasn't not to the point where we see him so focused on his sister's vagina that he cares about little to nothing, he doesn't care about his children, Westeros, his king, brothers or the Lannisters. Jaime is a grown man who couldn't see past his penis he's had it so much better than many many many people in Westeros he is the architect of his own hell.

And this accurately sums up my views on Jaime.

[Dofs]

A giveaway of this, I think, is when he tries to act like he thinks Tywin would to prove Genna wrong.

I don't see how this is true, considering that Jaime didn't want to say what he said to Edmure.

Anyway, for the op's question.

Jaime: Had an 'asshole' period between killing the king and losing his hand, but despite that, he is by nature a decent person and during the 'jerk' period he was kinda not himself - completely overwhelmed with cynicism and bitterness.

Ned: Does not act only in a honorable way. Is perfectly capable do what is right even if it may not be honorable.

Jorah: A loser who does not respect himself. For all his problems he is himself to blame.

Theon: Despite the fact that his choice what side to choose in CoK was indeed basically impossible, he was still a huge jerk and a scum. I think pre-Reek Theon was a worse person then pre-amputation Jaime.

Victarion: Would be a great guy if he was not born on Iron Isles.

Cersei: A bitch, scum, a completely vile creature. I believe she is worse than Joffrey was.

Arianne: She is not a bitch, not a scum and not a vile creature. She is a kind and compassionate person. Still, she is Dorne's version of Cersei as she has very similar viewpoints, problems and methods to solve the problems. Just unlike Cersei, she is kind. But I still do not respect her.

Tyrion: Loves himself too much. Lack of self-criticism is Tyrion's huge problem.

Summer Islanders: I do not think that having sex with everybody who is around is a great tradition. Chataya pimping her own daughter is sad.

Cat: I don't have a problem with her hating Jon. Nor with her releasing Jaime.

[Maid So Fair]

true yes, but I think that people who genuinely feel regret will do this automatically. Theon is the perfect example of this, he's filled with regret thoughout the whole thing in winterfell, he constantly tries to justify him on the inside cause the guilt is nagging at him (something that I do when I feel guilty) but he KNOWS it's wrong. When you feel really guilty, that feels horrible and only a good person is capable of that. said person will than create a moral code based on what feels wrong and they won't do it again. which is exactly what Theon did. and he's not even saving Jeyne to make up for his past deeds, cause you can't exactly make up for killing people. but he strongly identifies with her. he's doing it because he WANTS TO help her, not because he wants to feel better about what he did before.

I have to disagree here, pre-Reek Theon is constantly justifying his actions, only to do more bad things. About how everyone must understand that he did his best to persuade Balon and that he has to raid and reave and kill on command from his father. About how the people in Winterfell are ungrateful whiners because he only killed a few when he took the castle and hasn't mistreated them terribly. About how he had no choice but to murder innocent children when Bran and Rickon escaped, followed up by killing yet more people to cover up his crime. About Beth Cassel.

I like post-Reek Theon because he has now stopped BS himself and sees his own actions for what they were. Helping Jeyne is a turning point in his character because it's a selfless decision and it's a marked contrast compared to his previous views and treatment of those he considered below him.

[Minsc]

Jaime: He was and is still pretty much a jerk.

Asha: She isn't any smarter then any of her fellow Greyjoy male relatives.

Jon: He is no better leader/ruler then Dany in ADWD nor is his story any better.

Lancel: I am pretty cool with him, for a Lannister, and I don't see why people hate on him for joining the faith.

[lidsa]

- Doran is a shitty father.

- Catelyn did nothing wrong regarding Jon.

- Littlefinger is as smart as he is because he was fostered by Hoster Tully.

- Jon's story so far was only ever interesting because of what happens around him, not because of him.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Stannis- Delusional and power hungry. Jumping in bed with a servant of R`Hilor shows he`ll go to whatever lengths to get what he desires-the IT

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't see how this is true, considering that Jaime didn't want to say what he said to Edmure.

Kinda like how he didn't want to push Bran out the window, but he still did it? No, actually it isn't like that. He was actively trying to act like Tywin, he asked himself what Tywin would do during his meeting at the siege at Riverrun, for example. And it's not like he was pissed by saying that to Edmure, he was pissed because there were people around listening to him

The thing with Jaime is that he really needs to make up his mind and decide if he wants to be Tywin 2.0, Goldenhand the Just, or just the Kingslayer, because remaining on the fence won't cut it with Stoneheart

[INCBlackbird]

I have to disagree here, pre-Reek Theon is constantly justifying his actions, only to do more bad things. About how everyone must understand that he did his best to persuade Balon and that he has to raid and reave and kill on command from his father. About how the people in Winterfell are ungrateful whiners because he only killed a few when he took the castle and hasn't mistreated them terribly. About how he had no choice but to murder innocent children when Bran and Rickon escaped, followed up by killing yet more people to cover up his crime. About Beth Cassel.

I like post-Reek Theon because he has now stopped BS himself and sees his own actions for what they were. Helping Jeyne is a turning point in his character because it's a selfless decision and it's a marked contrast compared to his previous views and treatment of those he considered below him.

yes indeed, he is justifying his actions because he feels guilty. and the problem is that at this point he has no real moral code. He was really inexperienced and there's also the thing where Theon never allowed himself to see the truth, he always filtered EVERYTHING to make himself feel better about the situation. the past got filtered to convince himself he was loved, the present to convince himself he was a capable, grown man, the future to give himself more confidense that everything would be just fine. that's why everything went wrong,Theon has no way to deal with reality. and when you're a hostage and you got no control over what really happens, that works, you can sooth your fears with that and reduce your anxiety. but when you're in control, it doesn't work anymore because your actions based on filtered predictions have direct consequences. but yeah, I'm getting a little off topic here, the point is that Theon lost total control. in this 5th chapter he's so paranoid that he can't distingish the lies he's been telling himself from reality. so yeah throughout the whole winterfell ordeal he makes the same mistakes and he keeps justifying them cause he feels increasingly more guilty. but then again there was no real end to it until it all exploded in his face, he couldn't just give up at that point. I don't think any person would have done that honestly, but then most people are more capable leaders than Theon or would have head any kind of self knowledge and not started on it in the first place. so in my opinion, all of this stems more from all the issues Theon has (and honestly, understandable issues considering what his life has been) than him being a bad person. when you read his thoughts he always means well, basically he wants people to love him and to accept him, but it's just a lot harder than he thinks it is.

[Konradsmith]

Roose is a bundle of fun.

Mel(ony Seastar)'s a good girl.

[Maid So Fair]

snip

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll keep it simple. Actions> thoughts (kinda goes back to my previous point). Feeling guilty is simply not good enough when your crimes are this serious. If he truly felt that guilty he always had the option to pack up and go. There was always a choice. Everyone has problems, Theon more than most, but he is a man grown in his society and should by now be able to distinguish right from wrong and make the right choice.

[INCBlackbird]

^I think in many ways he wasn't a grown man. He was a captive half his life and therefor lacked some important life experiences. furthermore because of of all these issues he's been inside his own head too much, he doesn't distinguish between right or wrong because he hasn't been exposed to a situation in which he felt guilty over something he did so he doesn't have a real moral code until the incident in Winterfell. we don't learn through getting older, we learn through experiences. and Theon has none. for me personally feeling guilty is good enough and thoughts are more important than actions. because it's how someone feels/thinks about something that really tell us something about their personality, not their actions, it's about how they feel about those actions.

edit: I'd also like to add that even characters who can distinguish between right and wrong perfectly often don't make the right choices anyway because sometimes situations are just very complex. and there's also those characters who don't care about right or wrong or never even learn from their experiences and just stubbornly hold on to their ridiculously flawed moral code. so I kinda consider Theon better than those, no matter what they or he have done.

[TallTyrion]

^I think in many ways he wasn't a grown man. He was a captive half his life and therefor lacked some important life experiences. furthermore because of of all these issues he's been inside his own head too much, he doesn't distinguish between right or wrong because he hasn't been exposed to a situation in which he felt guilty over something he did so he doesn't have a real moral code until the incident in Winterfell. we don't learn through getting older, we learn through experiences. and Theon has none. for me personally feeling guilty is good enough and thoughts are more important than actions. because it's how someone feels/thinks about something that really tell us something about their personality, not their actions, it's about how they feel about those actions.

edit: I'd also like to add that even characters who can distinguish between right and wrong perfectly often don't make the right choices anyway because sometimes situations are just very complex. and there's also those characters who don't care about right or wrong or never even learn from their experiences and just stubbornly hold on to their ridiculously flawed moral code. so I kinda consider Theon better than those, no matter what they or he have done.

Such as?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Using hostage to defend Theon is just wrong. The only peril he had is if his father rebelled. He pretty much had free rein to be a twat. What use is a dead hostage? He was with a decent family, decent maester, decent master of arms. At banquets he was treat better than Jon. If he was messed up in the head then boo hoo. He wanted the greener grass of 5 of the kids but not the weeds of the bastard

[INCBlackbird]

^^ being a leader, having control over his own life, having any kind of parental love, the ability to be a child without worries...

^ yeah, wouldn't it just be lovely to live 10 years knowing you could be killed any day. sounds like real fun to me! and than we're not even talking with the prejudices he had to deal with. really wondering how you'd deal with it now... you really think you'd do any better? I don't think anyone would.