Controversial opinions on characters

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

^^ being a leader, having control over his own life, having any kind of parental love, the ability to be a child without worries...

^ you, wouldn't it just be lovely to live 10 years knowing you could be killed any day. sounds like real fun to me! and than we're not even talking with the prejudices he had to deal with. really wondering how you'd deal with it now... you really think you'd do any better? I don't think anyone would.

Really? For most people treat decently the threat would subside little by little, day by day, week by week, till it was right at the back of their mind, especially for those taken hostage at a young age. Unless Hodor said "dead man walking" everytime he saw Theon

[Batbob45]

Renly-not only a crappy brother and uncle, but a crappy person.

[Headless Wolf]

Robb was the best of the five kings and the best Stark

Edmure is responsible for his mistake at the fords (but he's still one of my favorite characters)

Bran will play the largest role in the war for the dawn, not Jon

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Renly-not only a crappy brother and uncle, but a crappy person.

:agree:

[TallTyrion]

^^ being a leader, having control over his own life, having any kind of parental love, the ability to be a child without worries...

^ yeah, wouldn't it just be lovely to live 10 years knowing you could be killed any day. sounds like real fun to me! and than we're not even talking with the prejudices he had to deal with. really wondering how you'd deal with it now... you really think you'd do any better? I don't think anyone would.

You don't need to be a leader to develop a moral compass. The vast majority of people aren't and never will be leaders yet they get along fine. Most people (including pretty much every woman in the series) have little control over their own life that's just the way this society works. He also was taken when he was 11 so most of his formative years were spent with his own family, he spent 5 years of his childhood as a hostage.

I'm not saying being a hostage wasn't shitty but everyone has problems, not everyone goes on to murder children.

[INCBlackbird]

You don't need to be a leader to develop a moral compass. The vast majority of people aren't and never will be leaders yet they get along fine. Most people (including pretty much every woman in the series) have little control over their own life that's just the way this society works. He also was taken when he was 11 so most of his formative years were spent with his own family, he spent 5 years of his childhood as a hostage.

I'm not saying being a hostage wasn't shitty but everyone has problems, not everyone goes on to murder children.

not specifically a moral compass no, but you need to have practice in being a leader before you can be a good leader, Theon had none. equally you need to have experience in doing things wrong (doesn't have to be big things though) to develop a moral compass, Theon didn't have that either. women also don't generally have to prove how they're "hard men" and so on, there's very different stereotypes for women so that's definitly different. he was taken when he was 8, 9 or 10 (different ages get mentioned, I tend to go with 9 cause it's the middle ground) and he was with the starks for 10 years. he spent some of his formative years with his own family yes, but you can't really say that was a good experience either. being bullied by your brothers and disregarded by your father because you're meek and shy... not exactly something that develops confidense in a person, something Theon definitly needed and lacked.

everyone has problems yet, most people not as much as Theon and yet tons of people in asoiaf go on to murder children...

[INCBlackbird]

Really? For most people treat decently the threat would subside little by little, day by day, week by week, till it was right at the back of their mind, especially for those taken hostage at a young age. Unless Hodor said "dead man walking" everytime he saw Theon

LOL? are you being serious?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Really? For most people treat decently the threat would subside little by little, day by day, week by week, till it was right at the back of their mind, especially for those taken hostage at a young age. Unless Hodor said "dead man walking" everytime he saw Theon

LOL? are you being serious?

If i get 5 unbiased people asking that question i`ll take it seriously. As it`s coming from Theon`s defence squad i choose to ignore it

[Dofs]

Kinda like how he didn't want to push Bran out the window, but he still did it? No, actually it isn't like that. He was actively trying to act like Tywin, he asked himself what Tywin would do during his meeting at the siege at Riverrun, for example. And it's not like he was pissed by saying that to Edmure, he was pissed because there were people around listening to him

The thing with Jaime is that he really needs to make up his mind and decide if he wants to be Tywin 2.0, Goldenhand the Just, or just the Kingslayer, because remaining on the fence won't cut it with Stoneheart

Bran has nothing to do with it so I'll not address him.

Jaime wasn't trying to act like Tywin, he doesn't approve of Tywin's way of things. It was made clear in his first Feast chapter and during his other chapters with his small thoughts like that that appear from time to time:

" Jaime could not deny that. "My father is dead as well."

"May the Father judge him justly."

Now, there's an awful prospect. "

That said, it is undeniable that Tywin was a leader, whom people listened, he was a man who could make the things done. And that's what Jaime remembers during the meeting at the siege of Riverrun. He does not ask himself, what would his father do. These are his thoughts about Tywin during the meeting:

" My father's councils never went like this "

He compares his own chaotic council meeting with his father's. And in this he wants to emulate him, but who wouldn't?

And he was pissed that he had to speak that speech. He didn't want to say it. Because if he did, he would have started from it. Or he would have told it to Blackfish, or he wouldn't have gone to the council meeting to listen to all the different variants of taking the castle. He made the threat to Edmure because he had no other choices left. And then himself considered it a low blow.

" "Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight."

Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. "

And what's the big deal about it, anyway. That was a bluff, anyway, there was nothing truthful in that threat, and was actually a great move by Jaime. He did what he had to do - nothing to do with him wanting to become Tywin 2.0 or whatever. Or what else he should have done, leave the siege as "Goldenhand the Just" and let the army attack Riverrun and kill Blackfish and his people? And speaking about people from Riverrun, there is also another thing that prove that Jaime does not try to emulate Tywin - letting people from Riverrun go just like that. Tywin would have never done it.

[TallTyrion]

not specifically a moral compass no, but you need to have practice in being a leader before you can be a good leader, Theon had none. equally you need to have experience in doing things wrong (doesn't have to be big things though) to develop a moral compass, Theon didn't have that either. women also don't generally have to prove how they're "hard men" and so on, there's very different stereotypes for women so that's definitly different. he was taken when he was 8, 9 or 10 (different ages get mentioned, I tend to go with 9 cause it's the middle ground) and he was with the starks for 10 years. he spent some of his formative years with his own family yes, but you can't really say that was a good experience either. being bullied by your brothers and disregarded by your father because you're meek and shy... not exactly something that develops confidense in a person, something Theon definitly needed and lacked.

everyone has problems yet, most people not as much as Theon and yet tons of people in asoiaf go on to murder children...

Actually compared to most people Theon is living in the lap of luxury. I'll take the threat of death for my fathers good behaviour over the threat of starving to death or succumbing to a treatable illness.

[INCBlackbird]

Actually compared to most people Theon is living in the lap of luxury. I'll take the threat of death for my fathers good behaviour over the threat of starving to death or succumbing to a treatable illness.

I wouldn't.

[Fisch]

Robb was the best of the five kings and the best Stark

Edmure is responsible for his mistake at the fords (but he's still one of my favorite characters)

Bran will play the largest role in the war for the dawn, not Jon

I'd agree with all of this, except that Robb isn't my favourite Stark.

[TallTyrion]

I wouldn't.

If you lived like a peasant for a month you absolutely would

[INCBlackbird]

If you lived like a peasant for a month you absolutely would

I don't think so, because there's a difference between having nice clothes and food but knowing you could be taken to the execution block any day and have your head chopped off (honestly, worst fear!) and growing up with no love, constant judgements and constantly having to prove that you're not as bad as people assume you are (because with your last name comes the assumption that you "need to be gentled") and growing up in poor circemstances where food is scarce but having a family who loves you, no judgements thrown your way... what is life worth in Theon's case? all he really had was hoping he wouldn't get killed so he could be go back home and be appreciated but guess what, even that was taken away from him...

[Fisch]

I don't think so, because there's a difference between having nice clothes and food but knowing you could be taken to the execution block any day and have your head chopped off (honestly, worst fear!) and growing up with no love, constant judgements and constantly having to prove that you're not as bad as people assume you are (because with your last name comes the assumption that you "need to be gentled") and growing up in poor circemstances where food is scarce but having a family who loves you, no judgements thrown your way... what is life worth in Theon's case? all he really had was hoping he wouldn't get killed so he could be go back home and be appreciated but guess what, even that was taken away from him...

Based on Theon's pre-Ramsay behaviour, I'd say that assumption was well-justified.

[TallTyrion]

I don't think so, because there's a difference between having nice clothes and food but knowing you could be taken to the execution block any day and have your head chopped off (honestly, worst fear!) and growing up with no love, constant judgements and constantly having to prove that you're not as bad as people assume you are (because with your last name comes the assumption that you "need to be gentled") and growing up in poor circemstances where food is scarce but having a family who loves you, no judgements thrown your way... what is life worth in Theon's case? all he really had was hoping he wouldn't get killed so he could be go back home and be appreciated but guess what, even that was taken away from him...

You're seriously underestimating how shitty medieval peasant life would actually be and you're over estimating how well children, in general, are treated in this world.

Theon most likely would not have lived a life full of love, praise and no judgement either at Pyke or in a hypothetical life as a peasant. That's not to say his life wouldn't have been better if he stayed at Pyke but it's not like that would guarantee him happiness either.

[Victarion10]

Euron Greyjoy: The best and most interesting character in the series.

[Maid So Fair]

Saying Theon had no way to develop a moral compass is silly. He lived with Ned and Catelyn, who have managed to raise all their children to have a very strong sense of right and wrong and Theon was raised among them, treated the same way, and expected to emulate the same kind of behaviour. There's even direct in text evidence of Ned punishing Theon for doing something wrong. And before you dismiss it consider the fact that ultimately it is that moral compass that screws him over - had he grown up as a proper IB he would have no scruples about doing what he does and would have had the necessary ruthlessness to curbstomp any opposition in its bud. His tragedy is that he knows what he's doing is wrong (because he's been raised to consider it wrong) but feels he needs to do it anyway because he's not a strong person.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

Jaime: Despise his character to the utmost degree.

Robb: Was not kingly to break hs vow, regardless if he loved that Westerling broad.

Cat: Should have stayed in Winterfell with her children

Theon: Cannot feel sorry for him. He betrayed two kings.

Stannis: Is the one true king of Westeros

Sansa: Mind numbingly boring.

Arya: I'd be happy if she killed everyone. Literally everyone.

Victarion: Awesome fucking character who could kill Dany and take her dragons, and I'd still like him.

Daario: Fuck that guy.

Dany: Get off your ass, chick.

Tommen: Would probably be a good king. Too bad that won't last long.

Myrcella: Darkstar should have finished the job.

Shireen: Let's use her kingsblood, bro.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Jaime Lannister: he was always a good guy, he didn’t become one after he lost his hand. The reason I consider him this way is because of what happened to him in the past. He clearly got traumatized by what aerys did and the fact that just because he swore an oath (which was supposedly all about doing “the right thing”) he had to let aerys do whatever horrible things he wanted and he even had to protect him! And I think Jaime considered all of this very wrong while tons of people around him told him that this was what he had to do because he swore an oath, which is apparelty more sacred than doing the right thing. So Jaime started to “go away inside” as a way to deal with traumatic events, it’s a common defense mechanism. And at the same time I think he grew very bitter that the world he lived in worked this way. I can imagine him being rather naïve and romantic (kinda like Sansa and her stories) when he was younger. And then eventually when he’s had enough and decides to do the right thing, kill aerys to prevent him from killing all of king’s landing. And what does he get for it? Mockery, and yet he still considers it his finest act. I think this is the moment when Jaime just goes “fuck humanity, if they think this is wrong than I don’t care anymore”

the Petyr and Sansa relationship: I don’t think littlefinger is replacing Cat with Sansa. But rather I think he’s still trying to get Cat (even beyond her death) through Sansa by making her his “daughter” as a sort of “if she’s my daughter, Cat and I must have been together”.

Lancel Lannister: there’s the thing where I find him an interesting character who gets way too little attention and way too little love, That’s rather controversial.

Ned Stark: I think he meant well but his moral code was very flawed. Because it’s a “rational” moral code, based on rules he’s desided on where important to him because it’s what he was taught, not an emotional moral code based on what feels right/wrong.

Theon Greyjoy: I think Theon Greyjoy was always a good guy, he had just lots of issues and defense mechanisms and spent half his life in captivity which prevented him from having some basic life experiences that he needed, as a result he’s completely lost and hasn’t had the chance to build up a moral code yet, but he does during the Winterfell disaster, and it’s completely based on what’s right and what’s wrong.

do you have any controversial opinions on characters, you'd like to share?

Jaime: I pretty much agree with your analysis...but nothing can justify pushing a child out of the window. That was cold, brutal and downright monstrous in my opinion. I have sort of forgiven him for it, but every time I hear Bran wish he had his legs again I cry a little on the inside, then remember who did that to him, and start to hat Jaime all over again. But you are right, Jaime has had a difficult life and seeing things from his perspective made me really like him as a character.

Petyr and Sansa: Again completely agree, I didn't see him as thinking of Sansa as Cat, but more him trying to use her as a means to fabricate his fantasized relationship with Cat.

Lancel: Interesting when he was making an impact, but now I just don't care.

Ned: Will always love this character, and I can't actually hold his misjudgments against him. In the world these characters are living in, most of them base their actions on what they were taught not what they feel is right. But he does have moments of strong moral qualms (such as the refusal to join in with Dany's assassination plot).

Theon: I think Theon is a difficult character to build an opinion on. He had probably dealt with the most difficult upbringing, feeling he has the closest connection to the Starks, and behaving like them, but always feeling like an outcast; then to go back home and told by his father that he also wasn't a Greyjoy. That feeling of not belonging anywhere must be so hard to deal with.

My controversial opinions:

Stannis: In my opinion, Stannis is a good man and likable in terms of his cause. But I find it hard to not dislike him simply becasue of his main flaw (in my opinion): He relies far too much on the righteousness of his cause, He doesn't make an effort to gain support and loyalty until its too late, and then continues to condemn people. He should have been making alliances and gaining an army way in advance, as soon as Jon Arryn died. But instead he plonked his ass down and waited until sh** had already hit the fan (Robert's death) then made a claim. He rules with the belief that king-ship is his right, not his duty, and taht is his flaw in my opinion. This coupled with his unyielding stubborn nature makes a severely detestable man.

House Tyrrell: I also don't think House Tyrrell too much. That isn't me saying that any particular characters are terrible, but the House in general infuriates me. They seem to have a history of quickly and spinelessly changing sides to join the winners to further their own survival. In terms of strategy, this is great and works really well for them (they have clearly prospered as a result), but I just can't like a House where their lack of honour and strength relies on others.

Oh and it seems like on this board it's a controversial opinion to actually like the Starks and (dare I say it?) say they're my favourite House?