Controversial opinions on characters

[INCBlackbird]

Based on Theon's pre-Ramsay behaviour, I'd say that assumption was well-justified.

if they hadn't assumed something like that Theon wouldn't have behaved that way. the behavior came from somewhere and he certainly wasn't behaving that way when he was a kid. asha discribes him as meek and shy, and when he first came to winterfell add terrified to that list. but he learned to cope with his issues by acting like a jerk. read a psychology book and you'll understand.

[INCBlackbird]

You're seriously underestimating how shitty medieval peasant life would actually be and you're over estimating how well children, in general, are treated in this world.

Theon most likely would not have lived a life full of love, praise and no judgement either at Pyke or in a hypothetical life as a peasant. That's not to say his life wouldn't have been better if he stayed at Pyke but it's not like that would guarantee him happiness either.

of course there's differences from person to person. I never said all peasents grew up like that. and no, not all people in Theon's situation would grow up the way he did. but all of them would be damaged in one way or another. and yes most people are damaged, I myself have a generalized anxiety disorder and some other things I've gotta learn to live with. and I'm not suggesting that none of it is Theon's fault but there is a reason behind the way he behaves and the things he does. and the reason mostly comes from him wanting to be loved and not knowing how to achieve it and being desparate for it. and that's what's important because most people grow up with unconditional love, not everyone sure, but look at how the people who don't grow up! I think people underestimate the effect of Theon's situation. and it's not JUST about the big things like the threat of death and the no perantal love, it's about the more sublte things as well, the assumptions about him that hang in the air, the way everyone knows he's a hostage and trust me as a person you can feel that. there's words, there's actual physical violence and than there's body language which embodies 70% of the communication... and Theon grew up that way 9 to 19 years old. and I'm pretty sure he had some kind of trauma when (in his mind) his home was invaded. he mentions in one of his chapters that he saw some of it happening and still had nightmares about it. Theon is much more damaged than people think he is.

[Ned's Sword]

Catelyn's treatment of Jon is justifiable.

Cersei's not to blame for Jaime's actions.

Littlefinger isnt as smart as he thinks he is.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Theon deserves everything he gets when it comes to Winterfell and Ramsay (flaying wise, maybe not the brainwashing). He doesn't deserve being the Starks hostage or treated by shit from Balon and Asha.

I like Jaime, but I'll never forgive him. He can start doing good things, but he's not redeemable.

Cersei is misunderstood and fucked over because of Maggy. And whilst she'll reap whats she sown a lot of it isn't actually complteley her fault!!!

[INCBlackbird]

Saying Theon had no way to develop a moral compass is silly. He lived with Ned and Catelyn, who have managed to raise all their children to have a very strong sense of right and wrong and Theon was raised among them, treated the same way, and expected to emulate the same kind of behaviour. There's even direct in text evidence of Ned punishing Theon for doing something wrong. And before you dismiss it consider the fact that ultimately it is that moral compass that screws him over - had he grown up as a proper IB he would have no scruples about doing what he does and would have had the necessary ruthlessness to curbstomp any opposition in its bud. His tragedy is that he knows what he's doing is wrong (because he's been raised to consider it wrong) but feels he needs to do it anyway because he's not a strong person.

ok first of all, I'm not saying Theon had no way to develop a moral compass, I'm saying he didn't yet because of the circemstances. he could possibly have but he didn't. second I have to disagree that Ned and Catelyn have a moral compass. I don't consider what they have a moral compass honor =/= morality. or well maybe I should say it's A moral compass but it's a flawed one. I'm sorry but Ned thinks Jaime should have let the mad king burn all of kings landing down just because he swore an oath to him and Ned thinks it's ok to start a war and have all those thousends of citizens die for it, just so he can put the what he considers "rightfull king" (because he's the rightfull king by law mind you) on the throne. I don't call that morality in any way shape or form. don't get me wrong, there are things about Ned's "moral" compass that I like, like the whole "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword"

and yes his children emulate this. like when Arya kills the night watch deserter because according to her father he deserves to die...

there is no direct text evidense of Ned punishing Theon for "doing something wrong" there is direct text evidense for Ned abusing Theon for being a child. http://thrumbolt.tumblr.com/post/66959501076/so-in-the-reek-ii-chapter-in-adwd-there-is-this

about that last part I do kind of agree actually. because there is this line where his men are stealing from the corpses and Theon can't do it because he feels wrong. so yeah, I guess he had some kind of moral compass but it was based on what ned "taught" him and I consider a lot of that wrong. and I do think you need to feel guilt yourself to really understand what is right/wrong. because I mean there's a difference between Ned's "rational" moral compass that's not based on feelings but based on what he was taught and the inner moral compass people have because they have empathy and they do something that they know hurts others and they can feel how wrong it is. I find the latter superior to the first, mostly because the first one (in Ned's case) is based on honor and what is right/wrong according to the law and I simply don't agree that that has anything to do with morality, it's just another way to control people. that law is there to protect the rich (even when they're corrupt.) and ultimately morality comes from empathy, not from the law. but yes, he was screwed over because he couldn't get rid of what Ned taught him...

[BadWo1f]

Well only people to blame about this Theon situation are Balon and Theon himself, not Ned, no Roberth or anyone else. He was sent to Starks at age of 11-12? So he had his family, also he probably didn't know he would be killed if his father rebels ,at least not until he grew older...You can't justify his killing of children by saying he had hard time when he was a child. He was sent to perfect family, every Stark child has moral code, every one of them knows the difference between good and bad, Theon was learning those same things. When you look at what happened to some other characters he got it easy (before Ramsay), he lived with Stark as a hostage, big deal...

Edit: Also what kind of father would rebel when his son is a hostage? Being with Starks could only create better man not worse.

[TrueOrFalse]

My unpopular/controversial opinions:

- I sympathized a lot with Theon even before he was tortured by Ramsay.

- I think Sansa is just as strong and capable as Arya, maybe even more so. I also don't hate Sansa for telling Cersei about Ned's plan because she could not have known about the consequences.

- I don't get any satisfaction whatsoever out of Lady Stoneheart hanging her enemies, Arya crossing names off her list, Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae, Wyman Manderly baking Frey's into pies or any other time a character has gotten revenge.

- I love the Greyjoy's.

- I think it's unfair to blame Catelyn for causing the war, or causing Ned's death, or causing the Red Wedding.

Honestly, I'm not sure how controversial these opinions are but I've had a lot of people disagree with me on them so yeah...:P

[INCBlackbird]

Well only people to blame about this Theon situation are Balon and Theon himself, not Ned, no Roberth or anyone else. He was sent to Starks at age of 11-12? So he had his family, also he probably didn't know he would be killed if his father rebels ,at least not until he grew older...You can't justify his killing of children by saying he had hard time when he was a child. He was sent to perfect family, every Stark child has moral code, every one of them knows the difference between good and bad, Theon was learning those same things. When you look at what happened to some other characters he got it easy (before Ramsay), he lived with Stark as a hostage, big deal...

Edit: Also what kind of father would rebel when his son is a hostage? Being with Starks could only create better man not worse.

first of all how in the world is Theon to blame? second, he had just seen his home burn and was sent to the enemy, he knew very well that could be killed, was probably expecting worse...

he was sent to a "perfect" family, really? (funny how I was told just a few days ago that that words was never used by stark fans to discribe starks...) either way even if you consider them perfect, he wasn't accepted by them. he was always an outsider. and he was treated like highborn hostages are supposed to be treated, no better no worse.

oh yeah he had it real easy, living with a death threat over his head half his life. really this is why I can never take Theon haters seriously, I hear this stuff over and over again and I can't help but think how you all clearly haven't even tried to put yourself into his position. when people actually acknowledge that it was difficult for him, I can argue (see conversation above) with this stuff all I can really do is laugh and facepalm.

also he was between the ages of 8-10 when he was taken from his home to pay for his father's sins.

what kind of father? well there's Balon Greyjoy for example.

[INCBlackbird]

My unpopular/controversial opinions:

- I sympathized a lot with Theon even before he was tortured by Ramsay.

- I think Sansa is just as strong and capable as Arya, maybe even more so. I also don't hate Sansa for telling Cersei about Ned's plan because she could not have known about the consequences.

- I don't get any satisfaction whatsoever out of Lady Stoneheart hanging her enemies, Arya crossing names off her list, Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae, Wyman Manderly baking Frey's into pies or any other time a character has gotten revenge.

- I love the Greyjoy's.

- I think it's unfair to blame Catelyn for causing the war, or causing Ned's death, or causing the Red Wedding.

Honestly, I'm not sure how controversial these opinions are but I've had a lot of people disagree with me on them so yeah... :P

amen to all of these!!!

[BadWo1f]

first of all how in the world is Theon to blame? second, he had just seen his home burn and was sent to the enemy, he knew very well that could be killed, was probably expecting worse...

he was sent to a "perfect" family, really? (funny how I was told just a few days ago that that words was never used by stark fans to discribe starks...) either way even if you consider them perfect, he wasn't accepted by them. he was always an outsider. and he was treated like highborn hostages are supposed to be treated, no better no worse.

oh yeah he had it real easy, living with a death threat over his head half his life. really this is why I can never take Theon haters seriously, I hear this stuff over and over again and I can't help but think how you all clearly haven't even tried to put yourself into his position. when people actually acknowledge that it was difficult for him, I can argue (see conversation above) with this stuff all I can really do is laugh and facepalm.

also he was between the ages of 8-10 when he was taken from his home to pay for his father's sins.

what kind of father? well there's Balon Greyjoy for example.

He's to blame for his action, those kids didn't kill themselfs. Compared to other great houses and Greyjoys Starks were perfect family...He was threated with all respects and like a true highborn whats so wrong with that? Half of characters were outsiders ,everyone was at some point an outsider, he felt like an outsider so he kills children? Again compared to other characters he did have it easy...Theon haters? ROFL, there is a difference between a hater and someone who dislikes Theon "oh poor Theon, he was a saint ,its everyone else foult not him, blablabla".

Yes,that is my point, if he staied with Balon he would probably be treated worse than Stark treated him...

[Alternis Dim]

Viserys did not deserve to have molte gold poured on his heard

[Karene]

I think Jaime's so-called redemption arc is sort of like a false redemption. Kind of like a very self conscious act, to pat himself on the back and to have other people see him as honorable or whatever but the change isn't necessarily coming from within. A giveaway of this, I think, is when he tries to act like he thinks Tywin would to prove Genna wrong. He's still trying to juggle his newfound purpose to be better and keep his vows with all his shitty traits

I think his real redemption, if he gets any, will begin when the Brotherhood captures him

In contrast, I think Theon's redemption arc is the real deal

Agree very much with this. I also think Jaime's redemption arc (and I do believe him to be more of a good guy than a bad guy as the books progress) is a bit sloppily written because the author seemed to decide "Oh, I'll make Jaime more of a nice guy" part-way through writing the books. Note that all of Jaime's remembrances of past goodness (such as feeling the need to defend Rhaenys from Aerys, recalling Rhaegar in a rather friendly way) occur AFTER he makes his leap into good-guy territory. We don't see any flashbacks to past deeds of heroism in the first book. It seems that Jaime's "good guy" memories are tacked in to make us sympathize with him more.

I can't shake the fact that Jaime pushed Bran from the window. Child-killing is pretty monstrous, even by GoT standards.

We're inside Theon's head so much and he convincingly endures so much trauma that his redemption arc seems very, very real. Enduring his psychological trauma was almost unbearable.

LF says he's only loved one woman, but when he tells Sansa, "You're more beautiful than she ever was" I think LF unconsciously goes beyond seeing Sansa as a substitute Cat. He sees her as a superior Cat and his prize for all he's endured. (That's not to say he'd hesitate to kill her if she betrayed him: LF's concept of love is quite tainted.)

[Karene]

My unpopular/controversial opinions:

- I sympathized a lot with Theon even before he was tortured by Ramsay.

- I think Sansa is just as strong and capable as Arya, maybe even more so. I also don't hate Sansa for telling Cersei about Ned's plan because she could not have known about the consequences.

- I don't get any satisfaction whatsoever out of Lady Stoneheart hanging her enemies, Arya crossing names off her list, Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae, Wyman Manderly baking Frey's into pies or any other time a character has gotten revenge.

- I love the Greyjoy's.

- I think it's unfair to blame Catelyn for causing the war, or causing Ned's death, or causing the Red Wedding.

Honestly, I'm not sure how controversial these opinions are but I've had a lot of people disagree with me on them so yeah... :P

I agree that Sansa and Catelyn need not be blamed for major events, as it's all such a large causal web. I found Catelyn's character very interesting - she's a "goodie" with more sense than Robb when it comes to military strategy, I think. However she's also an awful snob, disdainful of bastards, and her treatment of Jon Snow is pretty awful.

[David Selig]

I agree that Sansa and Catelyn need not be blamed for major events, as it's all such a large causal web. I found Catelyn's character very interesting - she's a "goodie" with more sense than Robb when it comes to military strategy, I think. However she's also an awful snob, disdainful of bastards, and her treatment of Jon Snow is pretty awful.

^ Not bastards in general. Just Jon Snow. Why do you see her as an "an awful snob"?

[TrueOrFalse]

I agree that Sansa and Catelyn need not be blamed for major events, as it's all such a large causal web. I found Catelyn's character very interesting - she's a "goodie" with more sense than Robb when it comes to military strategy, I think. However she's also an awful snob, disdainful of bastards, and her treatment of Jon Snow is pretty awful.

Oh yeah, I hated the way Cat treated Jon too. I know she was grieving when she said the line "It should have been you" but still...Ouch.

[Dofs]

Note that all of Jaime's remembrances of past goodness (such as feeling the need to defend Rhaenys from Aerys, recalling Rhaegar in a rather friendly way) occur AFTER he makes his leap into good-guy territory. We don't see any flashbacks to past deeds of heroism in the first book. It seems that Jaime's "good guy" memories are tacked in to make us sympathize with him more.

Eh, obviously we wouldn't have his memories in the first book. We didn't have his POV back then. :huh:

[Dulcinea]

Jaime: I pretty much agree with your analysis...but nothing can justify pushing a child out of the window. That was cold, brutal and downright monstrous in my opinion. I have sort of forgiven him for it, but every time I hear Bran wish he had his legs again I cry a little on the inside, then remember who did that to him, and start to hat Jaime all over again. But you are right, Jaime has had a difficult life and seeing things from his perspective made me really like him as a character.

Petyr and Sansa: Again completely agree, I didn't see him as thinking of Sansa as Cat, but more him trying to use her as a means to fabricate his fantasized relationship with Cat.

Lancel: Interesting when he was making an impact, but now I just don't care.

Ned: Will always love this character, and I can't actually hold his misjudgments against him. In the world these characters are living in, most of them base their actions on what they were taught not what they feel is right. But he does have moments of strong moral qualms (such as the refusal to join in with Dany's assassination plot).

Theon: I think Theon is a difficult character to build an opinion on. He had probably dealt with the most difficult upbringing, feeling he has the closest connection to the Starks, and behaving like them, but always feeling like an outcast; then to go back home and told by his father that he also wasn't a Greyjoy. That feeling of not belonging anywhere must be so hard to deal with.

My controversial opinions:

Stannis: In my opinion, Stannis is a good man and likable in terms of his cause. But I find it hard to not dislike him simply becasue of his main flaw (in my opinion): He relies far too much on the righteousness of his cause, He doesn't make an effort to gain support and loyalty until its too late, and then continues to condemn people. He should have been making alliances and gaining an army way in advance, as soon as Jon Arryn died. But instead he plonked his ass down and waited until sh** had already hit the fan (Robert's death) then made a claim. He rules with the belief that king-ship is his right, not his duty, and taht is his flaw in my opinion. This coupled with his unyielding stubborn nature makes a severely detestable man.

House Tyrrell: I also don't think House Tyrrell too much. That isn't me saying that any particular characters are terrible, but the House in general infuriates me. They seem to have a history of quickly and spinelessly changing sides to join the winners to further their own survival. In terms of strategy, this is great and works really well for them (they have clearly prospered as a result), but I just can't like a House where their lack of honour and strength relies on others.

Oh and it seems like on this board it's a controversial opinion to actually like the Starks and (dare I say it?) say they're my favourite House?

I agree with pretty much all of this. Especially what you said about Stannis. Also, I love Mance and all the wildlings. I think Jon was pushed into leadership to soon, and made some bad decisions, and is letting Stannis push him around. I also think Dany is to naive and refuses to see the larger picture of her actions.

[Maid So Fair]

Arya: I'd be happy if she killed everyone. Literally everyone.

Oh this reminds me. I don't care how many certified assholes (including but not limited to the people on her list) Arya kills, how, when, in what manner and I couldn't care less whether she follows some stupid official procedure. I still won't consider her damaged goods, a psychopath, a budding serial killer, lacking a moral compass or anything but awesome and a fucking hero.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Oh this reminds me. I don't care how many certified assholes (including but not limited to the people on her list) she kills, how, when, in what manner and I couldn't care less whether she follows some stupid official procedure. I still won't consider her damaged goods, psychopath, a budding serial killer, lacking a moral compass or anything but awesome and a fucking hero.

YES!!! I will always consider her the most awesome and bravest character in the series and I think that after "the big three", she'll have most important role in the last book.

[Griffin's Roost]

idk if its been said but I really think people give Tywin way too much crap.

the guy spent his whole life trying to win back the favor of the westerlands after his father totally screwed everything up.

his son Jaime who has literally everything going for him and would be a great lord, mainly because everyone would rally around him, wants to do nothing all day and stand guard as Robert B takes a crap and sleeps with whores. basically his so is allowing his son in law to cheat on his daughter. then Cersei is just ruining his grandkids and doesn't shut the hell up. all she does is mess plans up and fight with him. and news flash everyone. Tyrion is an asshole to Tywin too. he wastes his time all day drinking and whoring. and only starts to care about life at the start of the books. I understand tyrion has a hard life but im trying to say in tywins mind he sees all his kids as reincarnation of his dumb dad.

like when I read the books I think all the characters have redeeming qualities and flaws. I don't tywin is a saint but he is definetly not a monster.