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[Wired_Irony]

Here are the weeks we get a Bran chapter:


Sept. 25- Bran(I) Catelyn(I) Daenerys(I)
Oct. 9- Arya(I) Bran(II) Tyrion(I)
Oct. 30- Eddard(III) Bran(III) Catelyn(IV)
Nov. 13- Arya(II) Daenerys(III) Bran(IV)
Dec. 18- Bran(V) Tyrion(V) Eddard(X)
Jan. 22- Jon(VII) Bran(VI) Daenerys(VI)
Feb. 19- Daenerys(VIII) Arya(V) Bran(VII)



  And to start us off, here is Bran's first chapter:


Bran (I)          

Introduced: Lord Eddard Stark* (Ned, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, later Hand of the King, once ward of Lord Jon Arryn, owned the Valyrian greatsword ‘Ice’);

Brandon Stark (Bran, middle son of Lord Eddard; a warg with the ability to enter the minds of beasts, currently beyond the Wall with Meera and Jojen Reed, Hodor and Summer seeking the children of the forest);

Robb Stark* (the Young Wolf, heir to Winterfell, later Lord of Winterfell, later The King in the North);

Jon Snow (bastard son of Lord Eddard [?], later a steward and squire of Lord Commander Mormont with the Night’s Watch, later possesses the Valyrian bastard sword ‘Longclaw’, later still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch);

Theon Greyjoy (only surviving son of Balon Greyjoy, ward of Lord Eddard, later Prince of the Iron Islands, later captive of Ramsay Snow);

Jory Cassel* (Captain of Winterfell’s Guard, nephew of Ser Rodrik Cassel);

Hullen* (Master of Horse at Winterfell);

Harwin (Hullen’s son, guardsman of Winterfell, later member of the Lightning Lord's brotherhood without banners);

Desmond* (a guard, later part of the Hand’s household guard);

Grey Wind* (Robb’s direwolf);

Ghost (Jon’s direwolf);

Lady* (Sansa’s direwolf);

Nymeria (Arya’s direwolf, missing);

Summer (Bran’s direwolf);

Shaggydog (Rickon’s direwolf).

Lord Eddard Stark takes his 3 eldest sons (Bran, Robb, and his bastard Jon Snow) to witness the execution of a deserter of the Night’s Watch (Gared). Ned executes Gared with his greatsword, Ice, in the name of the King. Robb mentions that the deserter died bravely, but Jon points out that it wasn’t courage, the man was already dead of fear. Robb and Jon find a dead female direwolf and her litter of 5 direwolf pups (3 male and 2 female). The direwolf female was killed by the antlers of a stag. When the others join them, the symbolism is not missed by the adults (the direwolf, sigil of House Stark, killed by a stag, sigil of House Baratheon). Theon points out that a direwolf has not been sighted south of the Wall in 200 years. Jory and the other guards want to kill the direwolf pups, but Robb and Bran protest. Jon convinces Ned by stating, "Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord." Ned consents, but warns his children, "And the gods help you if you neglect them, or brutalize them." As they are about to depart for Winterfell, Jon finds a sixth direwolf pup, this one an albino and ostracized by the rest of the litter, and keeps the pup for himself.



  So let's start discussing.

Edited by Wired_Irony, 25 September 2006 - 12:09 AM.

[Leseratte]

the first read:
the first villian theon  if it would be a normal fantasy he would be the big bad
and jon  has gotten  all sympathy points

if you read this chapters theons later actions are hardly surprising.

[oba]

Bran I:

We learn that this summer has already lasted 9 years.

The first time I read it I still thought that the Others were going to be featured very, very prominently.  Bran is thinking about Old Nan's stories about wildling women laying with the Others to sire half-human children.

Jon comes off very well.  Theon comes off like a jackass.

In hindsight, this is the only time we get any dialogue between Jon and Theon.  

Bran thinks of Jon as his "bastard brother".

[Jon Targaryen]

Bran 1

It is surprising when I think about it that Bran is thought old enough to witness an execution at the age of seven.

Old Nan got some things right and some things wrong. They consort with giants and "steal" girl children in the night but the rest seems off.

GRRM does not give us the questions and answers between Ned and Gared. Perhaps it was just not interesting as Ned says Gared was "half-mad."

There are relatively few times we get a view of Jon from someone else's POV. In this chapter, he seems solemn, reserved, intelligent, formal with a hint of iron underneath.

Telling us about how an oathbreaker is the most dangerous of men ties in with Bran being accosted later on and Jon deciding to desert near the end.

I wonder if GRRM means for Bran to have to take someone's life as a lord later on in the series to tie back into what Ned says here. Jon heard what Ned would say when faced with Ygritte.

Ned says "sons" referring to Jon but only in front of other people.

It is considered bad luck to be born with the dead, apparently. Interesting for Dany, Tyrion and Jon. But I'm not sure if that is what the guardsman means by "dead."

Ghost has his eyes open first. Perhaps because Jon is more knowing of the harsh realities of the world, being a bastard.

[Tarthking]

Bran I:

This chapter is remarkable for how little it tells us about Bran. It's his POV, but all we learn about him is that he's a young boy, one of the sons of a noble family. It really seemed more of a showcase for Eddard, Jon, Robb, and Theon, as seen through Bran's eyes. This chapter could have been written from Jon's point of view, and we wouldn't have lost anything. It might have been better that way, as Jon would have had more to say about Theon, laying the groundwork for ACOK.

I liked that Martin bookends Eddard's story with two executions. His words to Bran about being able to look into a man's eyes and get his last words before you execute him contrast well with his own execution by Joffrey and Ilyn Payne. It's one of the clearest distinctions between what Eddard teaches his children in order to make them wise, effective rulers, and Robert's failure to teach his own children anything.

It's also a subtle hint at things to come. We know by the description of the executed man that he is Gared from the prologue. But we don't know what happened to him. How did he survive the attack from the Others? What did he see? Why did he abandon his post? How did he get south of the Wall all by himself? There is an entire story there, and we can only guess at parts of it. Unfortunately, Gared's executed, and he takes his story with him. In exactly the same way, Eddard takes his secrets with him upon his execution. We are given some hints about Eddard's secrets throughout the book, like the promise to Lyanna, Jon's mother, etc, but we never get the entire story before he dies. We're left with just enough to make guesses.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 11.21, said:

It is considered bad luck to be born with the dead, apparently. Interesting for Dany, Tyrion and Jon. But I'm not sure if that is what the guardsman means by "dead."

That is a great catch! It never occurred to me that those three characters all have that in common.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 11.21, said:

Ghost has his eyes open first. Perhaps because Jon is more knowing of the harsh realities of the world, being a bastard.

I took this to mean Ghost and Jon were the first to warg-bond (or whatever), thus Ghost's eyes were opened. Jon's warging abilities were clearly the reason he was able to hear Ghost while none of the others could. Once he finds the pup, the bond is created, and Ghost's "eyes" are now open, while the other pups have yet to establish their bonds yet, this eyes remain closed.

[A wilding]

Since there has already been some discussion on Gared's fate. I thought I would post about it here.

Here we see Westeros' justice system at work. It is an inquisitorial system, rather than an adversarial one (not necessarily worse, but they do rely more on the incorruptibility of the inquisitors). However, by modern standards, it is not a fair one. Ned sees clearly that something has happened to Gared - "something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him", he says in the next chapter - but because Gared's guilt is self evident he executes him anyway, without finding out what that something was. This is anathema to a fair inquisitorial system, which requires that all the circumstances surrounding the crime be brought to light before sentence is passed, as such circumstances may provide mitigation, or even mean that the accused is not guilty after all.

Think what would have happened if Ned had taken Gared back to Winterfell and coaxed the truth out of him. Knowing of the Others, he would surely have never have agreed to become Robert's Hand and go south. Events would have gone very differently. Basically Ned was punished by fate for his choice.

However Ned is in line with the general thinking of Westeros. Consistently we see that "obvious" guilt removes any need to look deeper into the facts, whether it is Jaime hanging broken men or Stoneheart hanging Brienne. Indeed the kicker is that Ned is probably one of the fairest lords in the Seven Kingdoms. The bottom line is that a truly fair judicial process would be impractical in their society.

Edited by A wilding, 25 September 2006 - 01:40 PM.

[Nightwatcher]

I remember the first time reading this chapter, thinking that the series was going to start of with a massive battle with the Others.

We learn several things here already about attitudes of justice in Westeros. To the entourage, Gared was already guilty, whatever the reasons. Ned and Jon recognized that he was afraid of something, but they didn't bother to find out what it was. We find out that summer has lasted almost a decade, and that the religion practiced by these people is polytheistic.

Did anyone understand the symbolism between the direwolf and the stag? I missed it at first because the first time I read AGOT because I kept thinking of Cersei and especially Joffrey as Lannisters only. At first I had the idea that Robert would later bring down the Stark household personally. Actually, that probably isn't to far from the truth.

The arrival of the Others and the direwolf correctly suggested that the North past the Wall was untamed, a kind of no mans' land. It was also the re-emmergence of magic that would be shown with the visions of the direwolf pups.

Anyone noticed that of all the characters in this chapter, that Jon is the only one who remains relatively unscathed? Bran is crippled, Theon is captured, and the rest are dead.

Edited by Nightwatcher, 25 September 2006 - 10:00 PM.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Another question: how did a direwolf get so far south?  Theon notes that direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for, what, 200 years?  (I still haven't gotten my copy of AGoT back yet.  Grrrr....)  So, it seems there are two possibilities:
1) Direwolves can climb 700' tall walls of ice
2) Direwolves do exist south of the wall, and have learned to hide in the Wolfswood *very* well.

Thoughts?

Also, do we have any idea where this is taking place?  How far did Gared travel?  Does this give us any idea how long after the Prologue this scene is?

[Gendry Baratheon]

Maester Yobjascz, on Sep 25 2006, 18.19, said:

Another question: how did a direwolf get so far south?  Theon notes that direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for, what, 200 years?  (I still haven't gotten my copy of AGoT back yet.  Grrrr....)  So, it seems there are two possibilities:
1) Direwolves can climb 700' tall walls of ice
2) Direwolves do exist south of the wall, and have learned to hide in the Wolfswood *very* well.

Thoughts?

Also, do we have any idea where this is taking place?  How far did Gared travel?  Does this give us any idea how long after the Prologue this scene is?

When you get ur copy of AGot back, reread it, direwolves can fly.

[Ironwill]

A wilding, on Sep 25 2006, 11.33, said:

Think what would have happened if Ned had taken Gared back to Winterfell and coaxed the truth out of him. Knowing of the Others, he would surely have never have agreed to become Robert's Hand and go south. Events would have gone very differently. Basically Ned was punished by fate for his choice.

Of course the modern equivelent would be to invite a convict into your home and be willing to belive he has abducted by aliens that were intent on invadeding earth. Ned did Gared a great service by rideing all the way out to the holdfast when most lords would not trouble themselves over such an event.

As Tarthking notes it is interesting Mr Martin starts his book from Bran's point of view, when both Ned and Jon where present. My only theroy is that if it was a Ned PoV we would have been given too much information about the north in one chapter whereas Bran offers only simple childlike explenations of justice and house politics, and if it was a Jon chapter Mr. Martin's description of the "sound" which leads Jon to Goast may have given the wrong feel on the supernatural in Westros.

[Donnachaidh]

I've always enjoyed reading about the moment they found the direwolves in the snow. I also think it's a good way for GRRM to get the readers to establish a sort of bond or fondness of the direwolves. Like the Starks they've been a part of the story from the very first chapter. It's also why I got so upset over Lady and Nymeria dying and being lost.

I also find it very interesting that Jon heard Ghost even though Ghost never makes a sound. The moment Jon finds Ghost made me smile the first time I read it, and still does. Because of the way he convinced Eddard to let his children have the pups by denying himself one first, being a bastard.

Another thing I reacted strongly to in the first chapter the first time I read it was the use of the word bastard. Bran calling Jon his bastard half brother made me feel non-sympathetic towards him for a moment. Add in the way Jon later on says 'I am no Stark' made me feel as though the whole situation was just too unjust. Now of course when I read that I don't have that feeling.

[Memory Lane]

Bran is considered old enough to witness an execution at age seven. I wonder if this is simply Ned's arbitrary judgement, or if seven is considered to be some kind of threshold in age for highborn boys. A book I've got on medieval knights says that seven was traditionally around the age when the sons of knights became pages.

Jon replies to Robb's statement about the deserter, and ends it with "You could see it in his eyes, Stark." We've never seen Jon ever reply to or speak to Robb by his last name later on.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Guardsman Bass, on Sep 25 2006, 17.02, said:

Jon replies to Robb's statement about the deserter, and ends it with "You could see it in his eyes, Stark." We've never seen Jon ever reply to or speak to Robb by his last name later on.

Funny that Jon could spot a deserter, but Robb couldn't... lord or king.

[The Adequate Jon]

Maester Yobjascz, on Sep 25 2006, 20.04, said:

Funny that Jon could spot a deserter, but Robb couldn't... lord or king.

Actually, it's Robb who calls him a deserter...

Quote

"The deserter died bravely," Robb said.

One of my favorite passages is from this chapter:

Quote

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

Timeline:
This chapter must take place at least 1 month after the prologue.  Gared was 8 or 9 days north of the Wall.  He must have fled southwest to the Gorge because he couldn't have escaped at any of the three castles of the Nights Watch, and I doubt if he new how to climb the Wall.  Since he was fleeing, he may have reached the Wall faster than 8 or 9 days, but since he had to go to the west to get to the Gorge, that would have added to his travel time.  So, let's say it took him 9 days to get south of the Wall.  From the chapter where Jon and Tyrion are travelling to the Wall, at least 18 days are accounted for.  So that's at least 18 days from Winterfell to Castle Black via the Kingsroad.  We're already at 27 days.  However, it said Gared was captured somewhere in the hills.  I assume it takes much longer to get from the Wall to Winterfell through the hills.  Also, Gared probably wasn't captured right away.  So, add a couple days for Gared to get captured, 10 extra days to travel through the hills, and we're around 40 days after the prologue minimum.  It may be much more, although I don't think Gared lasted very long before he was captured.

[Ealasaid]

Bran's chapters are written from the point of view of a 7 year old.  So he would not be listening to the questions and answers that  went on before Gared was beheaded.  Jon, and later, Ned, noted the fear of the deserter.  Ned is willing to believe that he is seeing a direwolf, surely he could have believed the story of Gared -- but I believe that Gared was literally scared out of his wits.  
The Night's Watch is mentioned again.
Again in this chapter, we have an emphasis on swords - information delivered by a 7 year old.  His father 's twohanded great sword made of Valyrian steel - spell forged and dark as smoke.  Compare this to the Other's sword.  And named Ice.  We wonder if Ice could defeat the Others' swords. "Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel."  Typical litte boy observation.
Jon's bastard status is well established.
Best lines have already been noted.
I too like the fact that Jon's wolf is last - biggest and strongest besides being "different."

[Memory Lane]

It's interesting that in addition to possibly magically 'hearing' the sixth direwolf pup, he was also the first to recognize the significance of the five direwolf pups.

One other phrase was interesting to me in that Bran describes Ned as regarding Jon thoughtfully after Jon says that he is "No Stark."

Adequate Jon,

I think it probably was significantly longer than 40 days. 210 leagues (630 miles, the distance you calculated Winterfell as being from the Wall in a straight line) is a long ways for a man to travel, especially since his black clothes would mean that he would have to travel off the road most of the day. Not to mention that if he was travelling through the hills, that would have further slowed his approach south.

Even assuming that he was in a panicked flight from the Wall, I can't imagine him covering more than maybe 10-15 miles in a single day, especially if he's covering rough terrain he's unfamiliar with. That alone seems to indicate that he may have been wandering south for more like 50 days, unless he was captured earlier by one of Lord Stark's bannermen and brought to Winterfell to be executed.

[Barba]

Maester Yobjascz, on Sep 25 2006, 17.19, said:

Another question: how did a direwolf get so far south?  Theon notes that direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for, what, 200 years?  (I still haven't gotten my copy of AGoT back yet.  Grrrr....)  So, it seems there are two possibilities:
1) Direwolves can climb 700' tall walls of ice
2) Direwolves do exist south of the wall, and have learned to hide in the Wolfswood *very* well.

Thoughts?

They can swimm :rolleyes:

Edited by Barba, 26 September 2006 - 02:44 AM.

[The Adequate Jon]

Guardsman Bass, on Sep 25 2006, 22.09, said:

I think it probably was significantly longer than 40 days. 210 leagues (630 miles, the distance you calculated Winterfell as being from the Wall in a straight line) is a long ways for a man to travel, especially since his black clothes would mean that he would have to travel off the road most of the day. Not to mention that if he was travelling through the hills, that would have further slowed his approach south.

Even assuming that he was in a panicked flight from the Wall, I can't imagine him covering more than maybe 10-15 miles in a single day, especially if he's covering rough terrain he's unfamiliar with. That alone seems to indicate that he may have been wandering south for more like 50 days, unless he was captured earlier by one of Lord Stark's bannermen and brought to Winterfell to be executed.

I do assume that he was captured quite early by one of the bannermen.  He was captured somewhere in the hills.  On the map, the hills are fairly close to the Wall.  Even then, 40 days is the minimum.  2 months is much more likely.

[A wilding]

Ironwill, on Sep 25 2006, 23.30, said:

Of course the modern equivelent would be to invite a convict into your home and be willing to belive he has abducted by aliens that were intent on invadeding earth. Ned did Gared a great service by rideing all the way out to the holdfast when most lords would not trouble themselves over such an event.

Are you being serious?

I said nothing about "inviting" Gared. He would be taken back to Winterfell as a prisoner. Winterfell is the seat of government of the North as well as being Ned's home, I am sure that it has prison facilities.

Clearly there is a big distinction between a glib defendant inventing a wild story to try to get off, and a defendant who has obviously been terrified out of his wits but is not saying why and is facing death with something like relief. I note that Gared's story would not have got him out of being executed - though telling it might perhaps have helped him make some sort of peace with himself before he died. And Ned would not have to believe every word of it to realise that a grave crisis was at hand.

It may have been a "great service" for Ned to make half a day's ride (?) to somewhere that is clearly within Stark lands to dispense justice in person, but it appears to be a requirement of Westeros law that justice is dispensed by a lord. It is a good question as to why Ned didn't have the man brought to him at Winterfell I suppose. But yes, I imagine that some lords would not have bothered; I did say "... Ned is probably one of the fairest lords in the Seven Kingdoms. The bottom line is that a truly fair judicial process would be impractical in their society."


Edit:

On the direwolves question, there is also:
3) It was divine intervention on the part of the Old Gods.

Edited by A wilding, 26 September 2006 - 07:39 AM.

[Ironwill]

A wilding, on Sep 26 2006, 05.36, said:

Are you being serious?

Clearly there is a big distinction between a glib defendant inventing a wild story to try to get off, and a defendant who has obviously been terrified out of his wits but is not saying why and is facing death with something like relief. I note that Gared's story would not have got him out of being executed - though telling it might perhaps have helped him make some sort of peace with himself before he died. And Ned would not have to believe every word of it to realise that a grave crisis was at hand.

I conceed my reponse was a tad snide, but the point remains.

Could you honestly belive anything Gered would tell you? His mind had snapped, Ned notes "My words could not reach him.." and if he did say anything regarding the Others how would it be possible to trust him? Enough know a grave crisis was on hand? Maybe, maybe not.

Tell me that you would sit down with a proven traitor who had been driven insane and discuss through lenghty means and methods what had caused his malady? If you encontered a man in Gered's state would you belive that he had been attacked by a bigfoot, or probed by an alien? What if the president of a nation belived that aliens were attacking and mobilized his troops against an unseen foe, all from the testamony of one insane inmate?