99 replies to this topic

[Maester Yobjascz]

Well, I doubt that the Greatjon thought it through quite that far.  I think he felt that Robb was a little lordling who would piss his pants and give the Greatjon what he wanted.  The combination of Grey Wind's sudden violence and Robb's calm response showed the Greatjon that Robb was a Northman, and one worthy of leading.

[The Adequate Jon]

True, he never thinks much before he acts.

[Barba]

Bran VII

Legends: Symeon Star-Eyes (legendary knight who lost his eyesight and put star sapphires in his eye sockets);

Jon Stark (ancient King of Winter who defeated the sea raiders and built the castle at White Harbor);

Brandon the Shipwright (ancient King of Winter who sailed west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again);

Brandon the Burner (son of Brandon the Shipwright, burned all his father’s ships);

Rodrik Stark (ancient King of Winter who won Bear Island in a wrestling match);

Torrhen Stark (the last King of Winter, the King who Knelt, bowed to Aegon the Conqueror).

Bran is watching Ser Rodrik train young recruits in the yard of Winterfell. Bran tells Maester Luwin that he dreamt of the three-eyed crow again, and it brought him down into the crypts where he spoke to his father. Bran says that his father was sad, because of Jon. Bran tells the maester that Hodor will not carry him down into the crypts. Bran insists the dream was real and that his father was there. In order to dispel the boy’s delusion, Maester Luwin calls for Osha and they descend into the crypts. Summer will not venture past the stairs. As Luwin sweeps his torch by the opening to the crypt that will one day hold Lord Eddard, Shaggydog jumps out and ravages the maester’s arm. Then Shaggy and Summer fight as Rickon emerges yelling at them to leave his father alone. Bran learns that Rickon had the same dream as him, and Rickon calls off Shaggy.

They go up to Maester Luwin’s turret, where Osha bandages his arm. Luwin tells the brothers that dreams are only dreams, but Osha says the children of the forest could tell him a thing or two about dreaming. Maester Luwin says that 'a man who trusts in spells duels with a glass sword'. Luwin takes out several arrowheads made of dragonglass, or obsidian, which the children of the forest forged far below the earth (and Osha again says that the children forge it still). Bran and Rickon each take some arrowheads. Maester Luwin then tells them the tale of the children of the forest: 'The children lived during the Dawn Age, before the coming of men in the land now called the Seven Kingdoms. They lived in the depths of the woods, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Their wise men were called greenseers and carved the faces in the weirwoods to watch over the forest. No one knows how long they reigned or where they came from.' 12,000 years ago, the First Men crossed the broken arm of Dorne before it was broken. The First Men were mounted, tall of stature and wielded bronze weapons.

The First Men chopped down the weirwood trees to build holdfasts, and the children of the forest, enraged, started a war. The greenseers supposedly used dark magic to make the sea rise and break the landmass that is now the broken arm of Dorne. Finally, a truce was called and the leaders of both races met on the island in the God’s Eye now known as the Isle of Faces. After the Pact was forged, the green men were formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. The First Men eventually adopted the old gods worshipped by the Children. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age and began the Age of Heroes. The Pact started 4000 years of friendship between the children and the First Men. While the kingdoms of the First Men endured so did the Pact, all through the Age of Heroes, the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms. But eventually the Andal raiders came with steel and fire, and drove the First Men into the North where they endured for many centuries. The Andals burned most of the weirwoods remaining in the south, slaughtering the Children where they found them. The Children fled north (where Osha swears they still exist beyond the Wall). Luwin’s tale is cut off as a raven appears and the 2 direwolves begin howling. The message is that Lord Eddard Stark is dead.

[The Adequate Jon]

Wow.  We get a lot of information in this chapter.  Osha seems convinced that the Children of the Forest still exist.  She also says that Giants still exist and we see them later from Jon's POV.

The Green Men were formed to watch over the Isle of Faces as part of the pact to end the war.  Does that mean that the Green Men are made up of both Children of the Forest and the First Men?

"a man who trusts in spells duels with a glass sword" - this may mean that to defeat the Others, they will need both dragonglass and magic.

Bran talks about fighting from the back of Hodor.  Possible foreshadowing of him warging into Hodor in order to fight.

The comet is first mentioned in this chapter.

[Barba]

The Adequate Jon, on Feb 22 2007, 14.24, said:

The Green Men were formed to watch over the Isle of Faces as part of the pact to end the war.  Does that mean that the Green Men are made up of both Children of the Forest and the First Men?

Don't think so. I think they are pure Children.
But, thinking about this, I think some major thing will happen on the isle of faces. It sounds too important to just be ignored later in the series

[oba]

Excellent chapter.  I actually like, on reread, the glimpses we get of Robb's feelings and attitude.  He lets his guard down around Bran, and we see that he's a kid who's been thrust into this position of responsibility and is simply trying the best that he can.

[wathombe]

Just starting my first re-read now, having read the series for the first time Nov-Jan.

Bran's very first crow dream (while in his coma in Bran III) struck me much more strongly this time around, particularly the part in which he is looking across the land and spies his family's party near the Trident:

Quote

... He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief.  He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart.  There were shadows all around them.  One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a Hound.  Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful.  Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

A lot of that is obvious.  Several questions, though:

What secrets is Arya hiding?  She told her story truthfully to Robert during her interrogation.  Could Martin be referring to Needle, whom no one knows she has, or something more?

The first two shadows are Sandor and either Renly or Jaime.  Who's the giant in armor made of stone, though?  Ilyn?

[El-ahrairah]

wathombe, on Feb 9 2009, 19.12, said:

What secrets is Arya hiding?

This early in the story, I don't think she has any deep and terrible knowledge that would not be obvious. But as Eddard, despite his POV, never revealed his own secret, we cannot entirely know.

[The Adequate Jon]

wathombe, on Feb 9 2009, 19.12, said:

What secrets is Arya hiding?

I thought it just meant that Arya was starting to hate several people she's travelling with, especially Joff and Cercei.

Quote

The first two shadows are Sandor and either Renly or Jaime.  Who's the giant in armor made of stone, though?  Ilyn?

The giant is Gregor, which starts to make a lot of sense at the end of AFFC.  The Golden one is Jaime.

[wathombe]

The Adequate Jon, on Feb 10 2009, 05.02, said:

The giant is Gregor, which starts to make a lot of sense at the end of AFFC.  The Golden one is Jaime.

Interesting that Gregor, especially his possible transformation, would be foreshadowed before his character was even introduced...

[dancer]

Maester Yobjascz, on Oct 20 2006, 16.14, said:

I finally got my copy of AGoT back from my friend, so I can start catching up...  

One thing I noted is Jaime's famous words: "The things I do for love", just as he throws Bran from the tower.

Everyone get's pissed at Jaime for doing this, and I can't argue with that.  But there are some who claim that he's never shown remorse for what he did.  I don't think that's true.  I think the text shows that he regretted the action even as he did it.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if someone could get the exact wording, right before that famous line... I got the distinct impression that Jamie didn't want to throw Bran from the window, but felt that he had no choice.  

Further, that he said "The things I do for love" shows that he knew the action was wrong... if it wasn't his love for Cersei at stake, he wouldn't have done it.  

Incestuous though it is, we know that Jaime had actual feelings for Cersei, though we discover that it wasn't exactly mutual.  In a way, it makes me feel sorry for Jaime... here's a guy who wants to be the good guy, who wants to be the knight he dreamed of being, who wants to do the right thing, but finds himself in situations where he ends up being the bad guy...

He wants to be with the girl he loves, so he joins the Kingsguard, eternally pissing off his father.  He wants to save King's Landing from madman, so he's forced to kill Aerys, ruining his reputation and honor.  He wants to save the life of the woman he loves, so he throws Bran from a window...

I don't think that this excuses him... just entitles him to a little pity...

Well Jaime stops him from falling originally, he grabs Bran's hand and drags him up to the window ledge; "Take my hand before you fall." Then he asks how old Bran was, "How old are you?".

Then it is mentioned that Bran dug deep gouges in Jaime's arm, err then Jaime says 'with loathing', "The things I do for love" and pushes him.

I don't think Jaime is a bad guy in essence, just has a lack of good judgement at critical times, which is displayed throughout the series.

[Beowulf777]

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

Bran 1

It is surprising when I think about it that Bran is thought old enough to witness an execution at the age of seven.

Winter is coming and he will not be a boy forever, as Ned says later on a few times. I think it's great that what we see here is that he isn't a soft pampered aristocrat but rather he is being prepared - trained - for a hard life with serious responsibilities, the life of a Great Lord in the hard North.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

Old Nan got some things right and some things wrong. They consort with giants and "steal" girl children in the night but the rest seems off.

I think GRRM strikes exactly the right note with this detail. There are elements of truth in Nan's stories but also misrepresentations because, after all, they are only stories.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

GRRM does not give us the questions and answers between Ned and Gared. Perhaps it was just not interesting as Ned says Gared was "half-mad."

It's Bran's POV and Bran wouldn't get to hear, nor, at 7 years old, could he be expected to understand. We already know or are able to figure out Gared's story in any case, having read the prologue.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

There are relatively few times we get a view of Jon from someone else's POV. In this chapter, he seems solemn, reserved, intelligent, formal with a hint of iron underneath.

Yes, also competitive, compassionate, and smart. It's clear he is loved and valued highly by his brothers and his father too. At the same time it's made clear that his bastardy separates him from the rest. GRRM does an excellent job of this.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

Telling us about how an oathbreaker is the most dangerous of men ties in with Bran being accosted later on and Jon deciding to desert near the end.

It's amazing how many times GRRM ties the story together with details like this and makes later happenings more significant. The first three books are very well planned.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

I wonder if GRRM means for Bran to have to take someone's life as a lord later on in the series to tie back into what Ned says here. Jon heard what Ned would say when faced with Ygritte.

I think it's a moral lesson about taking responsibility for one's decisions as a ruler, and being brave enough to face harsh realities, rather than a tie in, although all true Starks will have to follow their code if occasion arises. It distinguishes the Starks and the North from the southron lords and lands.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

Ned says "sons" referring to Jon but only in front of other people.

In private they are family, but Catelyn and society at large do not allow Ned to treat Jon as equal to his other sons all the time.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

It is considered bad luck to be born with the dead, apparently. Interesting for Dany, Tyrion and Jon. But I'm not sure if that is what the guardsman means by "dead."

Not sure what you mean by this. The meaning of having the symbol of one's house lying dead - and with the cause of death the symbol of another house too - is plain to everyone, and it's also clear the pups will die if left alone.

Jon Targaryen, on Sep 25 2006, 13.21, said:

Ghost has his eyes open first. Perhaps because Jon is more knowing of the harsh realities of the world, being a bastard.

I think that's a nice touch too. And it's one more way to make Ghost and Jon special, different, wiser, and better.

[Beowulf777]

dancer, on Feb 23 2009, 07.25, said:

Well Jaime stops him from falling originally, he grabs Bran's hand and drags him up to the window ledge; "Take my hand before you fall." Then he asks how old Bran was, "How old are you?".

Then it is mentioned that Bran dug deep gouges in Jaime's arm, err then Jaime says 'with loathing', "The things I do for love" and pushes him.

I don't think Jaime is a bad guy in essence, just has a lack of good judgement at critical times, which is displayed throughout the series.

By taking Bran's hand he also makes sure that he is in control of Bran, and can therefore choose whether to let him live or die depending on how he answers the questions. The last thing Jaime wanted was for Bran to recover his grip and then climb away out of reach leaving him and Cersei wondering how much he'd seen, whether he understood it, and whether he recognised them. Throwing Bran out was certainly an impulsive act, not thought through, but the intent - to silence Bran - was clearly there and there is no question but that Jaime was conscious of his intent, his act, and the evilness of his act. In other words, he still knew what he was doing was bad - hence 'with loathing'.

You might argue there is something seriously wrong with the moral compass of a man who knows such an act is wrong but is still capable of doing it if not with relish yet without any real pangs of conscience afterwards - the most he has is a vague sense of regret much later on, right? Jaime does not enjoy evil for evil's sake but he makes no bones about looking out only for himself and his immediate family. It is stated that he rejects the right of others to morally judge him, but it's pretty clear that he rejects virtually all moral claims from anyone other than Cersei, Tyrion, and Tywin. His circle of ethical consideration is so small he falls just short of being a sociopath.

[dancer]

Beowulf777, on Mar 22 2009, 12.07, said:

By taking Bran's hand he also makes sure that he is in control of Bran, and can therefore choose whether to let him live or die depending on how he answers the questions. The last thing Jaime wanted was for Bran to recover his grip and then climb away out of reach leaving him and Cersei wondering how much he'd seen, whether he understood it, and whether he recognised them. Throwing Bran out was certainly an impulsive act, not thought through, but the intent - to silence Bran - was clearly there and there is no question but that Jaime was conscious of his intent, his act, and the evilness of his act. In other words, he still knew what he was doing was bad - hence 'with loathing'.

You might argue there is something seriously wrong with the moral compass of a man who knows such an act is wrong but is still capable of doing it if not with relish yet without any real pangs of conscience afterwards - the most he has is a vague sense of regret much later on, right? Jaime does not enjoy evil for evil's sake but he makes no bones about looking out only for himself and his immediate family. It is stated that he rejects the right of others to morally judge him, but it's pretty clear that he rejects virtually all moral claims from anyone other than Cersei, Tyrion, and Tywin. His circle of ethical consideration is so small he falls just short of being a sociopath.

Yeah I'll agree with most of that. Jaime isn't evil and didn't do what he did for the sake of it. He did a terrible thing because it was (in his mind) the only option avaliable to him.

It's one of the reasons why I like Jaime so much. He is a bit crazy (for want of a better word) and he knows perfectly well that what he did was terrible, but he makes no aplogies for his actions. He doesn't deny it to himself, like Arya does and would probably have done the same thing again. At the end of the day, he is an honest bloke that lacks good judgement.

[Drowned Princess]

wathombe, on 09 February 2009 - 07:12 PM, said:

Who's the giant in armor made of stone, though?  Ilyn?

I'd always agreed that the stone giant was Gregor, but... I've just started a series re-read, and I noticed that at one point when Yoren is talking to Ned about Benjen he says something like "his blood ran black", meaning he was fully committed to the Night's Watch. So I was wondering if perhaps the stone giant in Bran's dream might have something to do with a man of the Watch, or the Wall. Just an idea.

[RemitMan]

In Bran I,

“This one will die even faster than the others.”

Martin is fond of including bits and pieces that later take on more significance. Could Jon’s wolf be the one that lives the longest? Of the original six, we only really know about Jon’s and Bran’s wolves. Or maybe Jon will live the longest of all the Stark children.

I put a few other ideas at
http://asoiaf.ovrnit...thrones-bran-i/

Edited by RemitMan, 15 April 2011 - 10:32 AM.

[DurararaFTW]

"Harwin is present at this event and may be one of the last people that remember the Stark children enough to identify them or at least remembers specific events that the children can use to prove their identity."


Introduced: Lord Rickard Karstark* (bannerman to the Starks, Lord of Karhold);

Harrion, Torrhen* and Eddard* Karstark (sons of Lord Rickard Karstark);

Lord Jon Umber (the Greatjon, Lord of Last Hearth, bannerman to the Starks);

Lord Roose Bolton (bannerman to the Starks, Lord of the Dreadfort, later named Warden of the North);

Mikken* (blacksmith of Winterfell);

Robett Glover (bannerman to the Starks, Lord of Deepwood Motte);

Galbart Glover (bannerman to the Starks, brother of Robett);

Lady Maege Mormont (bannerlady to the Starks, Lady of Bear Island, sister of Lord Commander Jeor Mormont);

Lord Medger Cerwyn*, Lord Harys Hornwood* (bannermen of the Starks)."

All these people, along with at least one lord, steward or representative from every area in the North in book 2 sat down with Bran at the main table either to discuss taxes and how to save up their harvent or their farewell dinner before going to war. Everyone will know who they are when they see them, problem is almost nobody loyal/manly enough to make a stand is left alive.

[TanjaDee]

Hello!

I've read the series for the first time two years ago and am now re-reading, getting prepared for ADWD.
I'm nearing the end of ACOK and I was browsing trough 'prophecies' section at Citadel after Daenerys's visit to the Undying and so I saw this again:

Quote

... He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a Hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Could it be that this last shadow of giant made of stone is somehow pointing to Arya?
If someone already proposed this just point me to the right link to see the discussion.
I know the theory is a bit stretched but Arya is in Braavos at the end of AFFC(and there's a Giant of Braavos there) and she is also blind. If I remember correctly she is trainig to be a Faceless? Could it be that when you open the giant's visor you can see nothing but darkness because he is faceless (and possibly blind?)
I am aware that this is maybe too early in the series to point to Arya's training in Braavos... but what do you think?

The Adequate Jon wrote:

Quote

The giant is Gregor, which starts to make a lot of sense at the end of AFFC. The Golden one is Jaime.

(Sorry I can't find how to quote someone, except for some multiquote button that doesn't really do anything)

I saw at the 'Prophecies' that most of the fans support the theory that this is Gregor Clegane, though I can't remember his role in AFFC.

Edited by TanjaDee, 19 May 2011 - 08:38 AM.

[Theo1]

Sorry if this has been said.  But there is a real big preview of Bran's mentality in this first chapter.  Sure he is a boy who want to be a knight.  But, look at how it starts.  He likes to be up above, looking down and seeing as far as he can from atop the castle.  He likes the feeling of looking down where he can see what is going on with the people below, but not be seen necessarily.  

Spoiler

sounds a lot like where he is now or where he will be, hooked up into the weirwood treenet, seeing everything, a broad view of the world from, in a sense, up above

.

Edited by Theo1, 20 October 2011 - 05:21 PM.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Tarthking, on 25 September 2006 - 12:43 PM, said:

Bran I:

This chapter is remarkable for how little it tells us about Bran. It's his POV, but all we learn about him is that he's a young boy, one of the sons of a noble family. It really seemed more of a showcase for Eddard, Jon, Robb, and Theon, as seen through Bran's eyes. This chapter could have been written from Jon's point of view, and we wouldn't have lost anything. It might have been better that way, as Jon would have had more to say about Theon, laying the groundwork for ACOK.

I liked that Martin bookends Eddard's story with two executions. His words to Bran about being able to look into a man's eyes and get his last words before you execute him contrast well with his own execution by Joffrey and Ilyn Payne. It's one of the clearest distinctions between what Eddard teaches his children in order to make them wise, effective rulers, and Robert's failure to teach his own children anything.

It's also a subtle hint at things to come. We know by the description of the executed man that he is Gared from the prologue. But we don't know what happened to him. How did he survive the attack from the Others? What did he see? Why did he abandon his post? How did he get south of the Wall all by himself? There is an entire story there, and we can only guess at parts of it. Unfortunately, Gared's executed, and he takes his story with him. In exactly the same way, Eddard takes his secrets with him upon his execution. We are given some hints about Eddard's secrets throughout the book, like the promise to Lyanna, Jon's mother, etc, but we never get the entire story before he dies. We're left with just enough to make guesses.



That is a great catch! It never occurred to me that those three characters all have that in common.



I took this to mean Ghost and Jon were the first to warg-bond (or whatever), thus Ghost's eyes were opened. Jon's warging abilities were clearly the reason he was able to hear Ghost while none of the others could. Once he finds the pup, the bond is created, and Ghost's "eyes" are now open, while the other pups have yet to establish their bonds yet, this eyes remain closed.

Three Heads of Dragon:

1. Tyrion
2. Dany
3. Jon or Aegon