Where the Valyrians a Patriarchal society?

[King Jon Targaryen I]

Its seems to me they where likely egalitarian society but I guess it depended on the family or the 40 valyrian houses. I mean the Targaryens had to apply Westerosi customs of inheritance when they came to Westeros. We may never know because most of the books and history of Valyrian culture we may never really know how there society truly functioned has a whole.

[Lord Varys]

The Valyrians were apparently not as equal as the Rhoynar, but certainly more equal that the First Men/Andals. We know that there were female dragonlords, and from Volantis, which is a freehold like Valyria, we know that men and women can vote and be elected to office. There were female triarchs in Volantis, and although it seems that there were no triarchs in Valyria - the only Valyrian office we know is archon, and there it is unclear whether they were officiating in Valyria itself, or in non-independent colonies, or both (like the Roman consuls and praetors did serve first in Rome and then later as proconsuls and propraetors in the provinces).

I imagine that Valyria was patriarchal in the sense that they had heads of the noble families, which would have usually been male, I guess, but women apparently could wield power, and hold offices as well.

Considering that the 'everything goes to the eldest son' thing is a kind of weird development in European feudal societies, we have no reason to believe that things went that way in Valyria, too. A parent could most likely make on of his/her children his/her main heir, but it is very unlikely that everything went to one person. Especially since Valyria was not a feudal society like Westeros - what children inherited from their parents was only wealth and land, not an estate/or the absolute power over a certain corner of the land. Owning land (and dragons) made you a political player, but gain influential and to rule (for a time) you would have to enter the political arena. Should you lose your lands or your dragons you would also use your political coin to exercise power, whereas in Westeros everything is connected to each other.

[Oafkeeper]

The Valyrians were more egalitarian so long as you were a male adult citizen. They seem to be based on the Roman Republic (Even if the Ghiscari got The Legions) where most of the power was held by a few rich clans but citizens still had rights under the law, votes and enough power that they were someone the noble clans needed the backing of to be really sucessful.

But just because they had equality between and rights for male citizens doesn't mean they treated women or non-citizens well. Roman women had few rights and democratic Athens was even worse. It was uncommon for a woman to be anything but the property of a man, be he the father or the husband. Both states were also infamous for their poor treatment of the foreigners they conquered, as was the Freehold.

However magic and dragons add an unknown element to the mix. It's kind of hard to tell a sorcerer on dragon back she can't vote because she has a vagina.

Anyway, male-only inheirtance seems to be a Targaryen-On-The-Iron-Throne only thing. When The Dance happened the ruler of the Vale was a woman and we have seen many other noble houses being ruled by women and that's just the Andals. The First Men seem to have much less of an issue with female warriors and by extension female rulers and Dorne doesn't even differentiate between the sexes when it comes to inheiritance, just age.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Anyway, male-only inheirtance seems to be a Targaryen-On-The-Iron-Throne only thing. When The Dance happened the ruler of the Vale was a woman and we have seen many other noble houses being ruled by women and that's just the Andals. The First Men seem to have much less of an issue with female warriors and by extension female rulers and Dorne doesn't even differentiate between the sexes when it comes to inheiritance, just age.

The possibility of women rulers does not mean that the society is not patriarchal.

Medieval Europe had the occasional reigning Queen and was still patriarchal across the board by any useful definition of the word.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Since women could have dragons, and even dragons bigger than the ones the men had, Valyrian society certainly had to be more egalitarian than Westeros.

We see this in the early Targaryen kings: Aegon treats his sisters as equals, Maegor rules very closely with his mother, Jaehaerys and Alysanne are partners, Viserys tries to name his daughter his heir, etc. Only after the disaster that was the Dance of the Dragons- and the fact that woman couldn't rival men in power sans dragons- things began to chance.

Anyway, male-only inheirtance seems to be a Targaryen-On-The-Iron-Throne only thing. When The Dance happened the ruler of the Vale was a woman and we have seen many other noble houses being ruled by women and that's just the Andals. The First Men seem to have much less of an issue with female warriors and by extension female rulers and Dorne doesn't even differentiate between the sexes when it comes to inheiritance, just age.

We know for a fact that the North never had a ruling Queen or Lady, and as recent as 100 years before AGOT, Rickon Stark's daughters are passed over in favor of his brothers.

[The silver dragon]

The Valyrians were more egalitarian so long as you were a male adult citizen. They seem to be based on the Roman Republic (Even if the Ghiscari got The Legions) where most of the power was held by a few rich clans but citizens still had rights under the law, votes and enough power that they were someone the noble clans needed the backing of to be really sucessful.

But just because they had equality between and rights for male citizens doesn't mean they treated women or non-citizens well. Roman women had few rights and democratic Athens was even worse. It was uncommon for a woman to be anything but the property of a man, be he the father or the husband. Both states were also infamous for their poor treatment of the foreigners they conquered, as was the Freehold.

However magic and dragons add an unknown element to the mix. It's kind of hard to tell a sorcerer on dragon back she can't vote because she has a vagina.

Anyway, male-only inheirtance seems to be a Targaryen-On-The-Iron-Throne only thing. When The Dance happened the ruler of the Vale was a woman and we have seen many other noble houses being ruled by women and that's just the Andals. The First Men seem to have much less of an issue with female warriors and by extension female rulers and Dorne doesn't even differentiate between the sexes when it comes to inheiritance, just age.

in the world of ice and fire book.

it said that aegon's ancestors joint ruled dragon stone. and aegon himself gave his sister wife's a lot of power at court.

they probably gave plenty of right's to women if not equal right's.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Winterfell is Burning, you say Aegon treated his sisters as equals, but I don't think that's true. His every day actions may have treated them equally, but they did not have 2 husbands, he had 2 wives, and he was unquestionably the boss even though Visenya was older.

[Oafkeeper]

You're right, sorry for conflating patriarchal with agnatic.

Let me just say instead sometimes women get passed over in favour of men, that the council of 101 established a precedent of no women on the Iron Throne, no inheirtance via a woman for the iron throne, that Rhaenyra was the finale nail in the Queen coffin, but that women can inheirit elsewhere since we have seen various lordships being ruled by women such as the Mormonts of Bear Isle, the Arryns in the Vale and Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock despite having male cousins.

[Oafkeeper]

Winterfell is Burning, you say Aegon treated his sisters as equals, but I don't think that's true. His every day actions may have treated them equally, but they did not have 2 husbands, he had 2 wives, and he was unquestionably the boss even though Visenya was older.

Oddly the polymory wasn't a Valyrian thing, it was just something Aegon decided to have. No one had it before him or after him. If Dany does have more than one husband (Or a wife) she'll be the first one since The Conqueror.

[RumHam]

Oddly the polymory wasn't a Valyrian thing, it was just something Aegon decided to have. No one had it before him or after him. If Dany does have more than one husband (Or a wife) she'll be the first one since The Conqueror.

It's said that Aegon taking two wives was "unusual, though there was precedent." Maegor had six wives, thought not all at the same time. There haven't been any examples since Maegor.

[born amidst snow and corn]

women with dragons don't suffer from misogyny as much as other women,and when the eldest son usually marries the eldest daughter there's no troubles wth succession.

[Lord Varys]

Besides Aegon I and Maegor, the only other Valyrian/Targaryen polygamist we know of is Aegon's ancestor Aenar 'the Exile' Targaryen. He had an unspecified number of wives. I imagine one primary sister-wife - the mother of Gaemon the Glorious and Daenys the Dreamer - and a bunch of secondary wives from outside the family.

Aegon's decision to take two sister-wives was the uncommon thing, it seems, and we see most likely why, as this creates uncertainty as to which descendants are calling the shots afterwards - the one from the elder or the ones from the younger sister-wife.

I imagine it was difficult for the offspring a Valyrian had with a non-incestuous wife to rival the claims of the incest-born offspring - for them that could have been similar to legitimate children vs. bastards.

Valyrian noblewomen seem to have more rights than women in Ancient Rome and Greece, as it is confirmed that women could own land, vote and be elected, and become dragonlords. It still seems that Valyria was a patriarchal society, but to a lesser degree than the real world societies Valyria is based on.

[SeanF]

At the highest level, there probably was a good deal of sexual equality in Valyrian society. Women could be dragonlords, and (presumably) sorcerers, as men could. The fact that women can vote in Volantene elections, and occasionally win office, suggests that this was also the custom in Valyria.

But, that doesn't make Valyria an egalitarian society. Their empire was founded on the most inhumane forms of slavery and brutality.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It seems that they were a patriarchal society, but the existence of dragons make a very big difference: since dragons don't care about the sex of their riders, it just happens that women just as often as men have access to very effective weapons... that just means, for examble, that if a woman feels oppressed, unappreciated or even displeased she could just as well take her dragon and ride away, leaving the family with one dragon less and one more potential enemy. So I suppose that women in Valyria had to have more rights for their society to function.

[Mithras]

Are Dothraki patriarchal? If so, who the hell are the dosh khaleen? Are Lhazareen the same? Are Ghiscari patriarchal or matriarchal?

I think in the East, a simple distinction of matriarchal/patriarchal does not work.

[Oafkeeper]

Are Dothraki patriarchal? If so, who the hell are the dosh khaleen?

Yes, they're about as patriarchal as you can get.

A few priestesses overseeing a few rituals don't change how life is lived for 99.9999999% of their women.

People can fear priests, religion and God without actually listening to, obey or submitting to them.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Are Dothraki patriarchal? If so, who the hell are the dosh khaleen? Are Lhazareen the same? Are Ghiscari patriarchal or matriarchal?

I think in the East, a simple distinction of matriarchal/patriarchal does not work.

They're all patriarchal societies though some have the quaint fantasy trope of allowing women to control the religious institutions to balance things out a bit. It's so common in fantasy works that you never question it though from a socio-cultural point of view one has to wonder how the hell it could have happened!

Matriarchal society... well, I can't name a single one from history from the top of my head. I'm not even sure there ever was one. It's not very common, closest thing is a handful of matrilinear society such as some native american tribes. There doesn't seem to be a single matriarchy in ASOIAF, at any rate.

[Oafkeeper]

Not really. Male Priests Only is really only an Abrahamic thing and socities have different rules, values and virtues for their religious castes than they do for the rest of society.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Not really. Male Priests Only is really only an Abrahamic thing and socities have different rules, values and virtues for their religious castes than they do for the rest of society.

All the religious institutions I can think of are dominated by men. We're not talking some kind of wiccan witch or things like that. Can you give an example of a real world religious institution (which imply an organized religion) that is dominated by women? I'm willing to allow large cults in the discussion.

[Oafkeeper]

The Dothraki don't have organised religion or religious institutions ?____?