79 replies to this topic

[DBaron]

Tarthking, on Oct 18 2006, 10.59, said:

Viserys and the Lannisters have some similar speech patterns. Both use "sweet sister/ brother" with their siblings. Does anyone else say this in the series?

Thats a good catch.  I will have to look out for other examples.

[Ealasaid]

1.  What did you think of the chapter on the first read?  And this read?

Quite frankly on the first read I sort of skimmed the Daenerys chpaters.  I was a bit bored until Viserys got his crown.

This time through, I'm reading it like a travelog.  And the customs GRRM has assembled for the Dothraki are wonderful.  I could almost smell the crowd, the food, horses and dust of all the people moving about.  Fermented mare's milk?  I heard meade was/is awful, but bleech, sour clotted milk?  I like the fact that the Dothraki are sensitive to their hosts, and inside the walls of Pentos, wear suitable clothing.  For Dany's wedding they dress in the sand silk and painted leather vests.  I would like to see a good drawing of that.  My favorite part of the chapter is where Drogo gives Dany the horse.


2.  Foreshadowing, Quotes, Symbolism:

Foreshadowing - maybe when Viserys gets all cranky about his crown and throne, Illyrio counsels him to wait for the Dothraki to find a time favorable for war.  Viserys then snarls that he pisses on Dothraki customs. And basically he does disdain the Dothraki until they piss gold on him

At the same dinner, Ser Jorah then chimes in that a lesser man can beg a favor of the Khal, but warns him against berating  Khal Drogo.  Viserys threatens to have out the tongue of the only knight from Westeros he has.  Shades of his father and Illyn Payne.

I believe that the dragon dream is a foreshadowing of Dany's pregnancy, Viserys' continued harassment and the birth of the real dragon, Dany.

Best Quote:  ...[Dany] said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind."  Lovely.


3.  Important plot or Character Development.

Danys' timidity is underscored again.  She has no say in her destiny and her sale in marriage to Khal Drogo.  She too, is a child only 13.  I wonder how many times she has had her moon's blood?  And who helped her with that bit of rite de passage?

The customs of the Brides Gifts was interesting.  I too, wondered what she would do with the mouse skin robe.  It has not been mentioned again.  Ser Jorah is already worming his way into her confidence by giving her books about "home."  

Of course, the plot is moved forward with the gift of the dragon eggs.  Does Illyrion really believe they are stone?  Or does he know that only a Targaryen can find a way to hatch the eggs and the learn to contol the dragons?  Later we get the information that
he is in touch with Westeros in a very real way.  He probably steered Ser Jorah to Dany and her brother.  

Nice bit of erotica to finish off the chapter.

Edited by Ealasaid, 19 October 2006 - 07:42 PM.

[Lukas S]

Quote

Fermented mare's milk? I heard meade was/is awful, but bleech, sour clotted milk?

Still used in Mongolia. Our former prime minister managed to drink a rather large bowl of it when he was there. But yes, it sounds rather awful (mead is all right, though, if you get the good stuff -- and there's a lot of bad mead on the market).

On topic, the mouseskin cloak seems to be a gift of the sort used to display vast riches and decadence, sort of like the bizarre dietary habits of the Roman upper classes (candied thrushes' tongues and the like). What the givers says is, basically, "Look, I'm rich enough to waste my money on needlessly complicated things like this".

[Tears of Lys]

1. What did you think of the chapter on the first read? And this read?

This was the first chapter I really got interested in the book.  The plight of this poor young girl who gets sold by her brother into a marriage to a very strange (to her eyes) stranger just got to me.  This was the chapter where I knew this was no ordinary story.  I despised Viserys, naturally.  He seemed not only a bitter, angry, hateful guy, but a coward too.  HE wasn't doing anything to regain his throne; he expected his small, young sister to do it.  I remember being extremely relieved that Khal Drogo sensed Dany's fear and treated her exactly as he would a young horse.  He took his time and stroked her and calmed her - before he broke her in!  That upset me, but there were much worse things happening back in Westeros.

On the re-read I noticed Mormont's introduction into the story more.  He seems to make a real point of ingratiating himself with Dany, knowing she's interested in her homeland.  On the first reading, I didn't notice this as much.

I too am clamoring for an artistic depiction of the sandsilk pants and painted vests that Dany wears.  

Re: the dragon eggs - Didn't everyone know they'd hatch eventually?  As soon as the book mentions how they felt warm to her touch, that was the tip-off.

[Barba]

Daenerys III

Introduced:
Jhogo (warrior of the Khaleesi’s khas, the Whip, later bloodrider).
Quaro (member of Daenerys's bodyguard after she married Drogo. He was killed while attempting to stop Qotho from interfering with Mirri Maz Duur's bloodmagic).

Legends: Aegon III Dragonbane (King of 7 kingdoms. During his regin all Targaryen Dragons died)

The khalasar is entering the Dothraki Sea (a great grassland). Dany is learning how to ride and adapt to the culture of the Dothraki. The heat is a difficult struggle to endure, but one night Dany dreams of being washed in dragonfire, and the next day her pain recedes. She goes off on her own to walk in the grass, but Viserys is raging over her giving him commands. He threatens her that she will wake the dragon, and attempts to grab her. Dany shoves him to the ground, and then Jhogo’s whip lashes around his neck. Humiliated, and told to walk behind the khalasar, Viserys tells Ser Jorah to hit Dany. Ser Jorah bows before the Khaleesi, further humiliating Viserys. Afterward, she asks Jorah if she had woke the dragon. Ser Jorah tells her that her brother Rhaegar was the last Dragon, and that Viserys is just a shadow of a snake. Dany later notices that the sun had warmed her dragon eggs. She speaks to her handmaidens, who talk of how magic died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer (presumably the Seven Kingdoms). That night, she brings Drogo outside. The chapter ends, presumably weeks later, with Jhiqui noting that Dany is pregnant. It is her fourteenth name day.

Edited by Barba, 16 November 2006 - 06:09 AM.

[tomfoster]

Barba, on Nov 13 2006, 01.18, said:

Daenerys III

Introduced: Jhogo (warrior of the Khaleesi’s khas, the Whip, later bloodrider).

The khalasar is entering the Dothraki Sea (a great grassland). Dany is learning how to ride and adapt to the culture of the Dothraki. The heat is a difficult struggle to endure, but one night Dany dreams of being washed in dragonfire, and the next day her pain recedes. She goes off on her own to walk in the grass, but Viserys is raging over her giving him commands. He threatens her that she will wake the dragon, and attempts to grab her. Dany shoves him to the ground, and then Jhogo’s whip lashes around his neck. Humiliated, and told to walk behind the khalasar, Viserys tells Ser Jorah to hit Dany. Ser Jorah bows before the Khaleesi, further humiliating Viserys. Afterward, she asks Jorah if she had woke the dragon. Ser Jorah tells her that her brother Rhaegar was the last Dragon, and that Viserys is just a shadow of a snake. Dany later notices that the sun had warmed her dragon eggs. She speaks to her handmaidens, who talk of how magic died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer (presumably the Seven Kingdoms). That night, she brings Drogo outside. The chapter ends, presumably weeks later, with Jhiqui noting that Dany is pregnant. It is her fourteenth name day.

Dany begins to draw strength from the association of her family with Dragons (see my post on Arya and "Wolfblood").  

She stands up to Viserys, albeit not with confidence and only successfully because Jhogo and Jorah support her.

She dreams of being "washed in dragonfire" foreshadowing her walk through fire at the end of Game.

The ambiguity about Khal Drogo (a caring, loving, respectful husband who happens to have different social values, or a person so distant from what we recognise as morality as to be the subject only a pitying disdain) that still haunts us (cf Why do people hate Dany thread) is enhanced here.   He, and the khalasar he leads, are her main defence against Viserys.   Their social conventions place her above him, and she benefits from that.  

The shift in our perception of Rhaeger continues (for me, began in earnest) here.   Jorah's description does not tie entirely with the decadent, warmongering rapist we are introduced to by Robert.  

I don't necessarily agree that the Lands of the Long Summer are the Seven Kingdoms.   Long summers seem no more characteristic of Westeros than Long Winters, indeed long seasons generally.   Even then, they probably wouldn't seem long by the standards of the Dothrakai.   Finally the Doom doesn't seem to "fall" on Westeros any more than anywhere else - the resurgent Others are more of a threat, but this is a consequence of the Doom, not the Doom itself.   More likely the Lands of the Long Summer are territories of Valyria.   Not really a "theory", more of a musing.

T

[The Adequate Jon]

tomfoster, on Nov 13 2006, 08.18, said:

Dany begins to draw strength from the association of her family with Dragons (see my post on Arya and "Wolfblood").

Yes, I agree with this.  She also has a close relationship with her Silver mare.  It seems to almost read her thoughts.  Does this show a warging ability in Dany?

This chapter covers a very long time.  It talks about three days after her wedding, then day followed day and night followed night where the riding got harder and harder.  Then she has the dragon dream.  Then each day is easier than the day before.  The chapter mentions the hills of Norvos, farms, villages, fording 4 rivers, and half a moon in the forest of Qohor.  This is all before they even get to the Dothraki Sea.  Then she has sex out in the open where we presume she gets pregnant.  When they are on the other side of the Sea, Jhiqui notices that she is pregnant.  The total amount of time covered is 5 to 10 months.

[Barba]

I don't think chapter covers 5 months. It starts on one side of dorthaaki sea, and last paragraph is on the other side. By the end of the chapter, when she takes Drogo outside, it still happens on the same day as the beginning of the chapter. Other side is reached in 2-3 months, because you can find out weather girl is pregnant in that time.

Quote

“I know you did,” Dany replied, watching Viserys. He lay on the ground, sucking in air noisily, red-faced and sobbing. He was a pitiful thing. He had always been a pitiful thing. Why had she never seen that before? There was a hollow place inside her where her fear had been.

this kinda reminds me on Catelyn AGAIN. In CoK last Cat chapter she says

Quote

I am become a sour woman, Catelyn thought. I take no joy in mead nor meat, and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. I am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings. There is an empty place within me where my heart was once.

I say again because there is another connection (which involves horses) I noticed in Cattelyn 3 chapter in GoT. You can find in in Catelyn thread of AGoT reread.

Quote

Jorah pulled up his horse and looked at her. “Truth now. Would you want to see Viserys sit a throne?”
Dany thought about that. “He would not be a very good king, would he?”
“There have been worse . . . but not many." The knight gave his heels to his mount and started off again.

This three dots (underlined part) made me wonder weather Mormont wanted to mention Aerys. Also (bold part) right after his answer he runs away.

I especially liked the talk of Dragons in this chapter. In Bran's chapter we saw dragons, and here we have:

Quote

She had heard that the first dragons had come from the east, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea. Perhaps some were still living there, in realms strange and wild.

Quote

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

I wonder weather this can be foreshadowing of something. Nothing crosses my mind. Thoughts?

Quote

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.”

According to Doreah, moon is source of Dragons - Dany. According to Irri, Moon is wife of Sun - Quentin Martell. It might be nothing, but maybe not :cool:


Thoughts?

Edited by Barba, 16 November 2006 - 06:07 AM.

[The Adequate Jon]

Barba, on Nov 16 2006, 06.06, said:

I don't think chapter covers 5 months. It starts on one side of dorthaaki sea, and last paragraph is on the other side. By the end of the chapter, when she takes Drogo outside, it still happens on the same day as the beginning of the chapter. Other side is reached in 2-3 months, because you can find out weather girl is pregnant in that time.

Good point. I was thinking that they figured out she was pregnant because her belly was starting to show it, but her hand maids would have been able to figure it out long before that.

Quote

According to Doreah, moon is source of Dragons - Dany. According to Irri, Moon is wife of Sun - Quentin Martell. It might be nothing, but maybe not :cool:
Thoughts?

Good catch!  I don't know if she'll actually marry Quentin, but it's an interesting idea.

[oba]

Barba, on Nov 13 2006, 00.18, said:

Daenerys III

Afterward, she asks Jorah if she had woke the dragon. Ser Jorah tells her that her brother Rhaegar was the last Dragon, and that Viserys is just a shadow of a snake. Dany later notices that the sun had warmed her dragon eggs. She speaks to her handmaidens, who talk of how magic died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer (presumably the Seven Kingdoms). That night, she brings Drogo outside. The chapter ends, presumably weeks later, with Jhiqui noting that Dany is pregnant. It is her fourteenth name day.

This is actually the chapter that sold me on the series.  

1. Jorah's comment about Rhaegar made me question the anti-Targaryen sentiment so vehemently expressed by Robert.  It made me think of the Rebellion and the participants in it in a much different manner.

2. It really sold me on Daenerys as a character.

[The Adequate Jon]

Daenerys (IV)

Introduced: Aggo (warrior of Dany’s khas, the Bow, later Bloodrider);

Rakharo (warrior of Dany’s khas, the Arakh, later Bloodrider).

The khalasar enters Vaes Dothrak under the Mother of Mountains, passing all the relics of empires fallen to the Dothraki. Ser Jorah considers the chances of the Dothraki taking the Seven Kingdoms, and feels that they are fierce enough. Drogo has 40,000 warriors, the same number of men Rhaegar brought to the Trident. He mentions that the Dothraki have no patience for siegecraft, and if the armies of Westeros stayed behind their castle walls they could hold out forever. Dany asks if Robert Baratheon would be patient, and Jorah responds that the King should have been born Dothraki, that he would take the battle to the enemy. But his lords Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark and Stannis Baratheon were too experienced in warfare to make that blunder. We learn how much Ser Jorah hates Ned. In Vaes Dothrak, no man may carry steel or spill blood. Dany intends to give Viserys gifts of clothes that would make him fit in with the Dothraki and to apologize for his treatment. But Viserys is near insane, and spits upon the gifts, but when he moves to grab her, she hits him in the face with a belt. Viserys leaves in anger.

[Barba]

Kinda late, but couple of thoughts:

1: Khal is translated by king. It is obvious, but I never looked at it this way. I always considered Kings to be in Castles and on Thrones. Just thought it was worth mentioning

2:

Quote

The crones have prophesied that one day that will come to pass, and so Vaes Dothrak must be ready to embrace all its children.”

This combined with House of Undying

Quote

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed

Do you think it is possible that it will happen with Dany. Phropercy is very well hidden, just like what Martin would do. Also, In the next Dany chapter crone is affraid when she is speaking:"Prince is ridding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world".

EDIT:Also, by the end of the chapter

Quote

They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

could this be direct line that, in one way, confirms that Mel's stone Dragons are already awake.

Edited by Barba, 13 January 2007 - 11:51 AM.

[Barba]

Daenerys (V)  

Introduced: Khal Ogo* (another Khal of the Dothraki);

Fogo* (khalakka [prince], son of Ogo).

Presented to the dosh khaleen, Dany must eat a raw stallion’s heart. When she does so successfully and they have performed a reading, the crones proclaim her unborn son ‘The Stallion who mounts the world’. Dany reveals her son will be named Rhaego, to honor her older brother. Ser Jorah tells Dany that Viserys had tried to steal one of her dragon’s eggs in order to sell in the market, but the knight stopped him. Wondering where her brother is during the feast, Dany finally sees Viserys enter drunk and carrying a sword. Viserys starts screaming at the indignity of his seating location in the feast hall, and draws his sword on Dany. Forbidden to bare steel in Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo has his bloodriders seize Viserys, and then the khal gives the dragon his crown, pouring molten gold over Viserys’ head.

[Maester Yobjascz]

A scene that made me think 'poor Viserys'... damn GRRM's good.  :)

[Barba]

Daenerys (VI)

Introduced: Quaro* (warrior of Dany’s khas);

Byan Votyris (Merchant Captain from the Free Cities).

Khal Drogo tells Dany that he does not intend to have his Khalasar cross the poison sea to invade the Seven Kingdoms. Dany and Ser Jorah go to visit the western market, but the knight seems distracted and mentions that he will check if there are messages from Illyrio with the merchant captain. Dany spots a wine merchant, who discovers her identity and offers her a special cask of wine. Dany is about to try it when Ser Jorah returns and confronts the merchant, who tries to flee. Dany’s warriors capture him, and we learn he intended to poison Dany, probably someone looking to win King Robert’s lordship offer. When Drogo learns of the attempt on Dany and their unborn child’s life, he promises that his khalasar will sail to Westeros and reclaim the throne for her.

[The Adequate Jon]

I've never been quite sure about Jorah in this chapter.  I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he had no idea about the assassination attempt on Dany until he read Illyrio's letter warning him, but his actions in the beginning of the chapter suggest that he was aware of the plot and didn't want to be around when it happened. I find it hard to believe that Varys and Illyrio would tell him about an assassination attempt and that he should let it happen.  In ASOS, Dany finds out that he is a spy, but that never made sense to me.  He reports to Illyrio and Varys, who are supposedly on Dany's side, therefore he's not a spy, but an ally.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Well, he's both.  He's a spy because he's reporting Dany's movements and actions to Varys, who's reporting to King Robert.  That Varys is secretly supporting Dany is irrelevant, as Jorah doesn't know this... so from an ethical perspective, he's spying.  Neither does Dany know that Varys is aiding her... so why should she think that Jorah is an ally?

Moreover, while Varys is apparently supporting Dany, I wonder if he'd place her survival ahead of his own... he gives up those who are lost causes, as he feels there isn't much he could do anyway.  Should Robert order the hiring of a Faceless man to kill Dany, Varys might sneak a warning out, but I don't think he'd stand up to Robert to deny him...

[The Adequate Jon]

I guess it's all a matter of your point of view.  Now, I would say that there is no way Varys/Illyrio would have told Jorah to let Dany get killed, so his strange behavior at the beginning of the chapter was just put in there to cast doubt in the readers' minds.

[The Adequate Jon]

Daenerys (VII)

Introduced: Mirri Maz Duur* (Lhazareen godswife, a maegi with knowledge of bloodmagic);

Mago (a warrior in the khas of Ko Jhaqo).

First Mentioned: Jhaqo (former Ko, later takes part of Drogo's khalasar and becomes Khal).

Drogo's khalasar moves through the village of the Lamb Men, or Lhazareen, whom Khal Ogo's army was marauding. Drogo had defeated Khal Ogo and enslaved thousands who would be sold to provide gold for the ships Drogo's khalasar would need to cross the poison sea. Amidst the devastation of the village, Dany finds men raping the Lhazareen women. She has her khas stop them and takes the women as servants. When she orders Ser Jorah to help, he tells her she is truly her brother's sister (meaning Rhaegar). When Dany finds Drogo wounded, Mirri Maz Duur, a healer and godswife of the lamb men, offers to aid him. Drogo's bloodriders mistrust her and name her maegi, but Dany is adamant that she can help. Mirri Maz Duur brings Drogo into the remains of her temple, and wants the bloodriders and Dany to leave while she applies her healing arts, but Dany refuses. The godswife applies a plaster of leaves to the chest wound and tells Drogo not to drink wine and not to remove the poultice. When Dany learns that Mirri is also a midwife, she asks the maegi to help her when she gives birth. Drogo tells her 'you don't ask a slave, you command them'.

Edited by The Adequate Jon, 15 February 2007 - 11:11 AM.

[The Adequate Jon]

This chapter seems to be setting Dany up for her downfall in her next couple of chapters.

There seems to be a common theme here about whether the new characters we meet can be trusted.  In this case MMD shouldn't be trusted.  In Brienne's chapters, she doesn't fully trust Dyk Crabb? but it turns out he IS trustworthy.  We're still waiting to find out about Marwyn, Aurane Waters, and probably others.

Would Drogo have been healed if he had followed MMD's directions about wine and not removing the poultice?

If yes, would MMD have betrayed Dany at some other point in the future?