Varys or Littlefinger: Who is smarter?

[239JMFL34109]

i feel like LF finger invest in the greed of people which while making people easy to control is not a good long term investment

[WinterRaven]

I think based on what we've seen in the series so far, they're about equal. The question of who is smarter/a better plotter will be decided in the later books.

[Max of the Magic Friends]

Varys, I think. Littlefinger is cunning and clever, but he is also overconfident and prone to cockiness. When he speaks with Catelyn, he mentions that he believes that Varys is under his control - that alone shows a huge lack of understanding, from what we've seen of Littlefinger. And I can't see Varys blabbing and bragging about his plans to someone like Sansa while he was drunk, nor allowing lust or emotions to cloud his judgement on how to act, whereas Littlefinger has done both of these.

[Lee-Sensei]

@Lord Lannister Has he? We don't know what Varys is up to yet. Can we really say he's more successful? Plus, his plan for the North, Vale and Riverlands seems bound to fail.

[Blackfish Tully]

That's a modern way of looking at things. In those days, a household made almost all that it consumed. Having more coin didn't mean you got more food or better clothes like today's world; your vassals already did all that the best that they could. Coin was used primarily to pay taxes and for trade (ie, luxuries like myrish carpet or something). So from the perspective of the middle ages, wealth WAS land/vassals. Amount of coin was unimportant.

This attitude continued into modern times -- consider George Washington. He is considered our richest president with a net worth of almost 500 million, yet he had to borrow coin to pay for his fare to the capital. Why? Because his vast wealth was in land and laborers.

Of course having more gold meant you could buy more food or better clothes or any types of luxury. You are mixing together the economic situation of the peasant class and the upper class.

The upper class always wanted more coin so they could buy all the luxuries that they desired. Land and Vassals are important but without a steady stream or a treasury full of gold and silver all you are is a cash poor nobleman. Coin or gold is always important no matter what time period. The amount of gold or investments you had have never been unimportant not 1000 years ago and not now.

[Bendubz]

Depends on what you view as being Smart.

Purely IQ I'd say LG, he's been brought up with a good education and all his schemes seem to require a high level of intelligence to think of, plus he's clearly brilliant with numbers.

But if you include their likelihood to be revealed then Varys wins hands down. He leaves all his plots nicely wrapped up, no one knows what his final goal is (save maybe Illyrio), and the only flaw is if his little birds are caught when it will be obvious to everybody. Whereas LF doesn't worry about consequences and this will surely catch up with him soon

[Blackfish Tully]

i feel like LF finger invest in the greed of people which while making people easy to control is not a good long term investment

Littlefinger does more then invest in the greed of people. He tries to find out what everybody desires and uses that against them . Like Lyn Cordray desire for boys and gold.

When you get down to it is investing in peoples greed a bad long term investment? in the long term in Westeroes are people going to do the right thing or are they going to let their greed take over?

Sadly for most greed will win out.

[239JMFL34109]

Littlefinger does more then invest in the greed of people. He tries to find out what everybody desires and uses that against them . Like Lyn Cordray desire for boys and gold.

When you get down to it is investing in peoples greed a bad long term investment? in the long term in Westeroes are people going to do the right thing or are they going to let their greed take over?

Sadly for most greed will win out.

to me that is investing in greed of power and etc... but look at Bronn and tyrion. sometimes you cannot make others offer. I think sansa will with a minor word let the strings greed that he uses with his agents to hang himself. i see a similar end for Varys honestly he seems like a parent doing what he thinks is best for the realm despite what they want. (not saying varys is just altruistic i think he was control not to just advise. i see him as more about people with great ability ruling instead of those with right blood.)

[The Holy Goat]

For now I'll go with Littlefinger when it comes to raw intelligence, if only because we know more about his successful schemes. That said, it's really hard to decide since Varys is so incredibly quiet about his ministrations. there are several moments on reread where one notice that Varys is subtly manipulating everyone to his advantage, be it by dismissing Barristan, revealing the way to Tywins chambers, using Viserys and Dany as smokescreens, possibly employing Taena, etc.

We know how incredibly clever Petyr Baelish is, but we don't really know how clever Varys is. The two of them are probably unmatched though, possibly with the exception of Bloodraven.

[Blackfish Tully]

to me that is investing in greed of power and etc... but look at Bronn and tyrion. sometimes you cannot make others offer. I think sansa will with a minor word let the strings greed that he uses with his agents to hang himself. i see a similar end for Varys honestly he seems like a parent doing what he thinks is best for the realm despite what they want. (not saying varys is just altruistic i think he was control not to just advise. i see him as more about people with great ability ruling instead of those with right blood.)

That's true about Bronn but that may be difference between Tyrion and Littlefinger , Tyrion had nothing to offer Bronn and making that offer was futile. Littlefinger would have known this and never made the offer. Littlefinger even admits to Sansa that pawns do not always do what you expect them to do.

[Garbad]

Of course having more gold meant you could buy more food or better clothes or any types of luxury. You are mixing together the economic situation of the peasant class and the upper class.

The upper class always wanted more coin so they could buy all the luxuries that they desired. Land and Vassals are important but without a steady stream or a treasury full of gold and silver all you are is a cash poor nobleman. Coin or gold is always important no matter what time period. The amount of gold or investments you had have never been unimportant not 1000 years ago and not now.

http://www.thefinertimes.com/Middle-Ages/money-in-the-middle-ages.html

"Thus, coins or money in the middle ages was not very important..."

Not really. The primacy of money, and coin, is a modern invention. Wealth was measured in land, power was measured in men and influence. Coin was used to buy luxuries, pay taxes, and so forth. Remember, we are talking about a fundamentally subsistence society, not an exchange society. Ned didn't deposit a check from his salary as Lord and head down to the local walmart to buy a shirt, he has his wife sow it from wool given by his vassals as taxes. Coin wasn't involved, nor was it key.

[239JMFL34109]

That's true about Bronn but that may be difference between Tyrion and Littlefinger , Tyrion had nothing to offer Bronn and making that offer was futile. Littlefinger would have known this and never made the offer. Littlefinger even admits to Sansa that pawns do not always do what you expect them to do.

yeah we have seen he takes chances and i think his own awns turn on him thanks to something very small falling apart.

[A Prince of Dorne]

Varys, because nobody can figure out his true motives, and he doesn't have a member. LF's lust will be his undoing

[Fuff89]

I would rather say they both have plot-lucky.

Deceiving people ain't a particular sign for smart, every child learns how to cheat to other people at a very young age.

Really smart people are those who go beyond what average humans do with their intuition, cleverness, dedication and curiosity.

The reason why they SEEM smart is because we are not privy to how many times and to which great extents they have been forced to change/adapt and rething their wicked plans and goals over and over.

Whereas it seems they could foresee things 20years in advance, the truth is they are doing pretty much what Martell does: they are sailing at sight in a pretty 'dumb' way.

In these books I didn't see any particular smart person.

Sam did show some amount of cleverness though, when he understood - on his own! - that he could use secondary information sources to better understand the past, just like modern archaeologist. Where normal people would have just seen wasted papers, he saw resourceful information.

[Lord Lannister]

@Lord Lannister Has he? We don't know what Varys is up to yet. Can we really say he's more successful? Plus, his plan for the North, Vale and Riverlands seems bound to fail.

I did say as things stand. Obviously both their games have yet to fully play out, but it seems LF has actually accomplished more that we can see as readers.

[Blackfish Tully]

http://www.thefinertimes.com/Middle-Ages/money-in-the-middle-ages.html

"Thus, coins or money in the middle ages was not very important..."

Not really. The primacy of money, and coin, is a modern invention. Wealth was measured in land, power was measured in men and influence. Coin was used to buy luxuries, pay taxes, and so forth. Remember, we are talking about a fundamentally subsistence society, not an exchange society. Ned didn't deposit a check from his salary as Lord and head down to the local walmart to buy a shirt, he has his wife sow it from wool given by his vassals as taxes. Coin wasn't involved, nor was it key.

You did not use the whole quote "Similarly, barons were also required to pay homage and taxes for the king. Often they used to provide troops and soldiers for the king at the time of need. Seldom had they used to offer cash for the king. Thus, coins or money in the middle ages was not very important for the political exchanges"

You left off the last three words which is pretty important to put the quote in context.

It says that Coin is not very important for the political exchange between the baron and the King because they would use providing troops or soldiers in exchange for paying taxes . That quote has nothing to do with whether somebody is wealthy or not . Think about what you are saying . You are saying that having a lot of gold or having valuable investments are not important . That is just fundamentally wrong in any time period since nearly the beginning of history . Gold is always important and that will never change.

Ask the Lannisters how important Gold is. Most of their power is based on their gold mines not how much land they own . Jorah Mormount had to start selling pouchers into slavery to get gold to pay for his bills . He had plenty of land and vassals but they did not pay the bills. Lyonal Cordray married a merchant's daughter because of her massive dowry because he wanted the gold. Roose Bolton married Walder Freys fattest granddaughter because of his desire for her weight in silver . Gold and the desire to have as much of it as possible is one of the most important driving forces in Westeroes whether somebody is a peasant or a powerful lord.

[Musashisamurai]

Varys by far.

For starters, while we've seen a lot of what LF has done, Varys's true motives and grand plan are only just being revealed. Varys likely started working on his plans and schemes when LF was still being fostered at Rivverun.

But I mean, LF has trust issues with Sansa (he trusts her completely, the daughter of a man he betrayed and had killed in cold blood. If Sansa finds out about his role, and how LF advised against mercy, LF is a dead man). His plot with the North won't work, maybe in the Riverlands and Vale, but I doubt it, for reasons above. (It won't work in the North because the Northmen won't follow a "Southron's puppet" or "Lady Lannister". That she was disinherited and there are no Stark queens makes this even worse. Jon and Rickon, and Bran even, are more likely candidates to lead the North. Jon, by opportunity, Rickon and Bran by birth).

Varys on the other hand has played his cards late, like Doran, and has benefited from every opportunity. That Varys isn't known to be linked to fAegon yet, and might possibly be manipulating the Faith/HighSepton makes this case even stronger.

[rayarts]

I'd say Varys, because I believe he will survive and LF will go down by his own schemes alias Sansa

[Blackfish Tully]

Varys by far.

For starters, while we've seen a lot of what LF has done, Varys's true motives and grand plan are only just being revealed. Varys likely started working on his plans and schemes when LF was still being fostered at Rivverun.

But I mean, LF has trust issues with Sansa (he trusts her completely, the daughter of a man he betrayed and had killed in cold blood. If Sansa finds out about his role, and how LF advised against mercy, LF is a dead man). His plot with the North won't work, maybe in the Riverlands and Vale, but I doubt it, for reasons above. (It won't work in the North because the Northmen won't follow a "Southron's puppet" or "Lady Lannister". That she was disinherited and there are no Stark queens makes this even worse. Jon and Rickon, and Bran even, are more likely candidates to lead the North. Jon, by opportunity, Rickon and Bran by birth).

Varys on the other hand has played his cards late, like Doran, and has benefited from every opportunity. That Varys isn't known to be linked to fAegon yet, and might possibly be manipulating the Faith/HighSepton makes this case even stronger.

Where do you get this from? Making the leap to "Littlefinger trusts her completely" from the very little interactions that we have seen from Sansa POV is a huge stretch . We have no idea how Littlefinger really feels about her and how much of his interaction with her is complete BS . Littlefinger told Ned Stark to not trust anybody and now you are telling me that the same guy is now going to put his complete trust in a flighty teenage girl.

I find that hard to believe.

[Garbad]

.You are saying that having a lot of gold or having valuable investments are not important . That is just fundamentally wrong in any time period since nearly the beginning of history . Gold is always important and that will never change.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. When you produce your food/supplies at home, don't pay your soldiers (they come based on oath), why do you care about coin? That precisely describes the middle ages -- wealth was in land, labor, and loyalty. Coin was of much more limited importance.

Ask the Lannisters how important Gold is. Most of their power is based on their gold mines not how much land they own . Jorah Mormount had to start selling pouchers into slavery to get gold to pay for his bills . He had plenty of land and vassals but they did not pay the bills. Lyonal Cordray married a merchant's daughter because of her massive dowry because he wanted the gold. Roose Bolton married Walder Freys fattest granddaughter because of his desire for her weight in silver . Gold and the desire to have as much of it as possible is one of the most important driving forces in Westeroes whether somebody is a peasant or a powerful lord.

Robbs armies (and successors) needed no coin. Nor did stannis (until he hired mercs). Nor does dany. Each are wealthy and powerful despite not having any coin at all. This demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about -- coin might pay mercs, but little else. The obsession with coin/wealth is ahistorical. People of that era were far more concerned with land, power, titles, and so on.