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The Riverlands Web V.6


Booknerd2

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The OP will always be a work in progress as characters, objects, places, post questions, and stuff is updated.


Here are the links to all previous versions thus far in the spoiler box:



The Riverlands Web V.1 :

http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v2/


The Riverlands Web V.3 http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v3/


The Riverlands Web V.4 http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v4/


The Riverlands Web V.5 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/122458-the-riverlands-web-v5/



The Riverlands Web: Or How Some People Can’t Shake a Connection if They Tried.



This was started because it branched out of another thread and took on a life of its own. Many had thoughts regarding some characters and how far away they were from each other, and from the last two books we see that is now narrowing. The overlap or just missing each other that has been occurring will go somewhere eventually. In some cases, some theories were more likely than others. Many have debated what I called to myself the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or Starks. I dabbled here and there on threads, but always wished it would be in one place with everything in front. Arcs are narrowing and have or are about to intersect. We started to only brush the surface and took a look. So we wanted to delve into situations/connections and interpretations of what they mean and could mean, and give it a place of its own.



Here are some we have discussed, there are certainly more: Mini-fact, organizer, profiles...



Primary Tier Characters: Common thread: All in Riverlands area, and all looking for Sansa and Arya.



Brienne –of Tarth. Former Rainbow Guard member of Renly. Associated with Sapphires. Knew Catelyn, met Gendry and knows he’s Roberts’s son of her own accord, and I don’t need to elaborate on what she is currently doing for LS and BWB. We know her Jaime situation and she has fetched him. She is currently looking for Sansa and Arya Stark. She did not realize it but met Sandor on the QI. EB knows what her current mission is, he might have told Sandor. Sandor was standing around in his Novice Brother Halloween costume and surely heard something. Knows Thoros. Current Status: With Jaime



Sandor – No ser. House Clegane. Former bodyguard to King Joffrey. KG. Familiar with Sansa and Arya Stark. Run-in with BWB, LS thinks he was the last person to see Arya. Sandor knows Jaime from KL and earlier than that. Currently with EB (or maybe not?) Knows Thoros. Saw Gendry with Arya. Knows Catelyn Stark was the girls mother. Knowledge of LS through EB???Unknown and Speculative. Was there when Brienne showed up to QI. Reaction presently unknown. News he has gathered or input from EB unknown. Current Status: QI or Maybe not



Gendry – Ser of the Hollow Hill - Knighted by Dondarrion. Bastard son of King Robert. Part Targ and Estermont. Former blacksmith's apprentice. Familiar with Arya – now knows Brienne – at orphanage assisting with looking for Arya/ Sansa - member of BWB. Saw Sandor take Arya. Met Ned, and is working with LS. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with LS, Thoros, BWB



Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn Tully Stark) – AKA - Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman, LS for posts, - House Tully/Stark/BWB - Looking for Sansa and Arya. Knows Gendry. Reaction unknown. Most likely knows he was with Arya.Thinks Sandor took Arya. Working with BWB and familiar with Brienne and Jaime as Catelyn and now LS (again we know they are headed toward her, so no need to elaborate). Knows Thoros. Current Status: WIth BWB, Gendry, Thoros, etc.



Brynden - AKA Blackfish - House Tully - Uncle and Great Uncle of LS, Arya, & Sansa. Certainly no Jaime fan, a'tall. Whereabouts currently unknown, but last seen escaping from Riverrun. Knows Hound. Current Status: ??? - which translates to: No one has any idea where the hell he is currently.



Jaime -House Lannister - KG - familiar and with Brienne. Knew Catelyn and will possibly soon know LS. Knows Blacksfish. Knows Arya and Sansa and looking for them. Knows Sandor. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with Brienne



Stranger - "Driftwood" - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane - House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB - Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - surely incensed that EB could not come up with a better name than "Driftwood" (makes him sound like a dork) - grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to it, if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."



Nymeria - AKA BIG NYMS -House Stark - direwolf - one of original 6 in litter - 4 left - only female left of litter - Arya's direwolf - Connection/shared extension of/with Arya - hates the friggin Lannisters, Freys, etc. for many reasons - female alpha - roaming Riverlands - Hates everyone - Knows/hates Jaime - Knew Catelyn - pulled Catelyn as LS out of water/aware of LS to some degree - might have seen Arya/been aware of a presence -More concerned with Arya than Sansa most likely, but…still went in to retrieve LS/Arys's mother - might know Gendry/BWB/Thoros anyone Arya was around ( few reasons it could be or could not be) - rules pack of other male and female wolves -HDWIC - Current Status: Pissed off! Meanwhile in the Riverlands...



Thoros - of Myr, priest of R'hllor, BWB, bromance with Beric, with LS/not happy with how she runs things, Knows Sandor. Knows Stranger. Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Drinking buddies with King Robert. Known for sword on fire circus trick. Knows Brienne. Knows Gendry….???? we will get back to this. Current Status: With LS, Gendry, BWB



The Late Lord Walder Frey - nonagenarian – the cryptkeeper – extremely fertile – loves the ladies –widower many times over - will acknowledge bastards and is married more times than I can count –Lord of the Crossing – House Frey – rules the Twins – hates slights – can’t marry off multiple children and bastards and now grandchildren and so on – was pledged to Riverrun – called the Late Lord Frey by Hoster Tully – will hesitate to act unless he sees an advantage for himself/his House –he will take care of his progeny - host of the Red Wedding – knew Cat, hopefully will hear of/know LS – knows Jaime – May have heard of the Hound - despises Edmure and Blackfish - comes from a long line of weak chins and weasely features -sided with Lannisters and Boltons and others over Starks and Tullys -broke guest right -his house is now targeted by Lady Stoneheart and BWB. Even Dunc thinks he started out life a real pain in the ass - He has a search for the outlaws responsible for the hangings of kin - The North and many others hate him due to treachery, murders and hostages, and his disavowing guest right. Current Status: At the Twins – most likely hearing that House Frey decreased in number a bit more every few days. Responsible for death of Lady Stark, King Robb Stark, Grey Wind, many other people too, and still has several imprisoned. And really more problems every other day coming his way.



Secondary Tier Characters:



Harwin- House Stark allegiance - son of Hullen, Master of Horse of Winterfell - grew up and worked at Winterfell - stable boy/guard - Knows all members of House Stark very well, including previous generation, Rickard, Lyarra?, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Could id any Stark possibly. Used to lead Arya's pony as a child. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Could recently id Arya. BWB. Knows LS, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, Jaime, other BWB members. Knows Nymeria. Current Status: BWB, and theories about being sent somewhere else.



Tom of Sevenstreams - AKA - Tom O' Sevens, Tom Sevenstrings - BWB. Knows Thoros, Sandor, Jaime, LS, Arya, Gendry. Singer/Lyricist/Musician. Plays woodharp. Hit single "The Floppy Fish." Familiar with House Tully (Edmure, Lysa, Hoster?) might know or know of Brynden. Current Status: Apparently, still in BWB, posing as musician looking for work, has infiltrated Frey camp at Riverrun, where he encountered Jaime. Can update LS on status of Edmure/other intelligence.



Lem Lemoncloak - Lem short for Lemoncloak - Redundant double name - some speculate an alias with more background he is not revealing for some reason - BWB - known for yellow cloak, bad teeth, broken nose not set and healed properly, large, strong man - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Hyle. Currently: Utlizing Sandor's Hound Helm ( Mistaken identity issue? with BWB at the hanging that was halted.)



Anguy- AKA - The Archer - From Dorne - commoner -excellent at archery - Known to blow money on luxuries and girls - BWB - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor. Knows and turned down offer from Ned Stark to join the Hand's Guard. Current Status: BWB



Septon Meribald- Septon that travels the Riverlands - from the area originally - illiterate - able to memorize religious doctrine of the Seven - lives on random assistance for food and shelter in exchange for carrying out septon duties. Distributes food and goods to poor. Travels with a donkey and a dog named "Dog." Knows Brienne, EB, Pod, Hyle, did run in to Sandor and Stranger on QI. Brings up the "tales" of Nymeria in circulation, but doesn't know who she is. Knows BWB. Current Status: Unknown, But allowed to go about his business by BWB.



Podrick Payne - "Pod" - House Payne - House is sworn to House Lannister - former squire to Tyrion - now accompanying Brienne - Knows Sandor. Saw EB, Sandor, Stranger? Would he know Sandor's horse? Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa Stark. Looking for Tyrion. Knows Sansa enough to possibly id her, which would be asset to Brienne. Knows BWB. Knows LS. Knows Gendry. Knows Thoros. Knows Meribald. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.



Hyle Hunt- House Hunt - knight - allegiance to House Tarly - Knows Brienne, Pod, BWB, LS, Thoros, Meribald - rocky acquaintance with Brienne to begin with - Saw EB, Sandor, and Stranger - marriage proposal to Brienne was flatly denied - Did offer to fight Jaime in Brienne's place, offer denied. Seems to be looking for Sansa and Arya Stark, really, doing and going wherever Brienne is/does. Issues: may report back to Randyll Tarly. Obviously, knows Brienne is sole heir to Tarth and female, thus why he attempted to propose marriage. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.



The Hot Pie - From Flea Bottom, orphan, baker, does not kick people in the balls to death, contrary to what he said, Familiar with Arya and Gendry, Knows BWB, Knows Thoros, Current Status: In Riverlands at Inn of the Kneeling Man - baking the Westeros version of the cronut - Inn named for Arya Stark ancestor, Torrhen, The King Who Knelt.



Elder Brother – name unknown –House ? - former knight – House Targaryen allegiance during Robert’s Rebellion - supposed healing powers – head guy on Quiet Isle – unknown if he suggested the attempted nut-napping of Stranger – no vow of silence currently – appears through his story that he does have things in common with Sandor – did experience a doomed love - acquires news of events outside QI – we are not sure if he speaks with Sandor since their initial conversation we hear about secondhand when he tells Brienne info – tall, shaved head, not sure if veiny, red nose suggests drinking? – knows Brienne, Pod, Hyle, Septon Meribald – Unknown if he exchanges news with Meribald – knows of Saltpans – possible harboring of Sandor, yet he tells Brienne he is dead and constructed a decoy grave and laid the Hound Helm there before it was taken by Rorge – he knows Sandor travelled with the true Arya and shares this with Brienne – knows of Arya and Sansa – possibly knows or heard of other Webbers such as Jaime and Blackfish – does he know of BWB, the orphanage? Is he harboring other individuals? Current Status: On the Quiet Isle



Tertiary Tier Characters: Coming soon...



Edric Dayne - Ned - House Dayne – Lord/heir of Starfall – Dorne – was squire to Beric Dondarrion/ his almost uncle in-law. Does not possess Dawn…yet? Only living Dayne relative known is Aunt Allyria of the very long engagement that was not to be. Former member of BWB that defected with some members after Beric died and LS took over. Milk-brothers with Jon Snow, nursed by Wylla. Knows Sandor and Stranger, Jaime, LS, and the entire BWB. Oh….Gendry certainly knows who he is. He knows Arya. Appears to have knowledge of Starks. Knows Sansa. Current Status: Whereabouts Unknown – no known objectives that are clear at the moment.



Edmure Tully – House Tully heir – Riverrun – mocked by Tom O’s Sevens in song, “the floppy fish” -Knows Marq Piper – Fought and led men against battles with Lannisters and Gregor’s Riverlands raids – Tytos Blackwood rescues him – Known for his kind heart and sheltering and concern for the small folk at Riverrun even at an expense – Both Robb and Blackfish are upset with him for disrupting plans they had – In Robb’s place he marries a Frey girl, Roslin - At his bedding, the Red Wedding occurs and he later hears of the deaths - Walder Frey, his father-in-law takes him prisoner, and Riverrun is later besieiged – Blackfish does not budge as Edmure is threatened with hanging at a constructed gallows - The siege is lifted when Jaime arrives and amongst further negotiations - Edmure is given a choice: surrender Riverrun and his lordship and he will be moved to Casterly Rock where his wife will meet him upon giving birth - A tidy keep will be granted when their child comes of age - Any Riverrun defenders would lose their arms but would not be taken prisoner. Or, the castle and defenders would be attacked and both destroyed, with his baby reaching him “by catapult.” Edmure is allowed to bathe and to the tune “The Rains of Castamere.” Edmure delays the surrender to allow Blackfish to bounce. He is related to Catelyn/LS and Blackfish. Does not know what happened to his sister as LS. Knows the Hound. Knows BWB in general. Knows Tom only as a singer he dislikes. Knows the Stark children but not by sight. Oh, he knows Jaime all right. Current Status: Held by the Lannisters as a prisoner heading for the Westerlands and Casterly Rock.



Places in the Riverlands: Coming Soon...



The Inn at the Crossroads -



Peach/Stoney Sept -



The Twins - The Crossing – House Frey – 2 identical castles linked by a bridge and consisting of the Water Tower – at the Trident’s Green Fork – Fees are charged to pass – at a high price – source of Frey wealth – near route that goes from Riverlands north to Winterfell – it is heavily fortified. Site of Catelyn Stark’s meeting with Lord Frey in negotiations for Robb. Roose Bolton was married and his host stopped there. Also, it was the site of the Red Wedding massacre. Current Status: Lord Frey and many of his relatives, are lying in wait as word of Frey deaths emerge sporadically, and other news that affects the House would reach Lord Walder. Surely, the Late Lord Frey Death Watch is on amongst his relatives. Lady Roslin Frey Tully awaits the birth of her baby as well.



Riverrun House Tully – allegiance to House Stark - Red Fork/Tumblestones – three-sided castle – stand-out feature is flooding a moat that can encircle the entire castle – excellent for sieges – Littlefinger was fostered here – site of double wedding of Ned Stark/Catelyn Tully and Jon Arryn/Lysa Stark – Robb Stark was born here – Riverrun has had its share of sieges – and eventually the Tullys are stripped of their ancestral home when Riverrun is given to Emmon Frey of the infamous “piece of paper.” It is surrenedered by Edmure but not before the Blackfish swims off. Current Status: in the possession of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister Frey.



More to come...



Objects and Miscellaneous Coming soon...



Dog - a massive, shaggy dog named Dog – hangs out with Septon Meribald and protects him – has tussled with wolves (Big Nyms lost a few minions, I suppose) – Meribald believes he is a dog that hasn’t given his name yet, which also reflects the Hound keeping his identity quiet with help from EB – He is friendly unless you mess with him/Meribald – Meribald treats him well and keeps him fed – He will bark back if spoken too seemingly in answer – he sniffs the Gravedigger and his ear is scratched – at the Inn he sniffs out the blood from the Hound/Arya pub brawl on the floor that has seeped in the wood – The brothers have given bones to Dog before, telling us it is not his first visit with Meribald there. Current Status: unknown but assumed alive and possibly left with Meribald – Brienne does hear him barking during her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn.



The Bull Helm created by Gendry at Tobho Mott’s Shop, King’s Landing – helm is representative of a bull with horns – symbolic of his size, strength, stubborness – his identity as forged by himself individually – he is sometimes called “The Bull” - representative of sticking it to boys he worked with at Mott’s - Ned Stark offered to buy it but he was told it was not for sale – indicative of him knowing who he is and he cannot be bought – a source of pride and nostalgia for most likely his first major project he completed as an apprentice smith, and perhaps the nicest and the most prized possession he owned –was used as armor for defense on the road - Current Status: It was taken by Dunsen, who is on Arya’s list, as well as Polliver, who did not have it at the pub brawl with Arya and Sandor. After that the whereabouts are unknown. Not sure if possible, or if it is symbolic of falling away and forging a new identity, but we are curious if it is seen again.



The Hound Helm -belongs to Sandor Clegane - reflective of House Clegane sigil, history, nickname/the Hound persona, and all that entails separate from Sandor - symbolic of a both fierce and loyal nature, the ability to sniff and sense bullshit/lies - now a symbol of falsely attributed atrocities committed not by Sandor - the Helm was laid on Sandor’s grave according to EB, and it was later stolen by Rorge - When he is killed by Brienne it is taken by Lem of the BWB. Current Status: with Lem, who was warned not to utilize it with misgivings by Thoros of Myr.



Needle -



Oathkeeper - Valyrian steel – one of two swords re-forged by Tobho Mott (Gendry’s former master smith/employer) from the Northern Stark longsword formerly known as Ice. A longsword and sister to Widow’s Wail which is smaller. It has a golden pommel carved into a Lannister lion’s head with two ruby chips for eyes. The blade itself is rippled black/red. The gold scabbard has a series of lion’s heads and bedazzler rubies. (Any former Stark or Northerner would be turning in their grave; they do simple. Sorry, it still pisses me off.) Lord Tywin gives it as a gift to Jaime originally but he asks Brienne to use it and doles out the name. In essence, the sword of Ned Stark is now in service to find his two daughters. It was the sword used to kill Lord Stark by Ilyn Payne. Requests by Robb and Catelyn to have it returned were denied previously. It is also incriminating evidence that Brienne has forgotten her oath to Lady Stark and is used by the BWB and LS as proof of collaborating with the Lannisters. Current Status: with Brienne of Tarth in the Riverlands, if it is on her?



More to come...



The common link - The Webbers are looking for:



Arya Stark -



Sansa Stark -



The Vale Connection: Coming soon...



Mad Mouse -



Myranda Royce -



Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish -

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Update:



Post questions master list – spread over V.1 – V. 6



Post Questions Previously Covered: But hey, rehash at any time!



From V.1 – V.6



Post Question #1: Do you think Thoros knows already who Gendry is? Will a Gendry identity reveal, in general, cause problems in an already divided BWB? Is his safety at risk? LS?



Post Question #2: Why do we love Stranger and why he is like an Ancient Greek theatre aside?



Post Question #3: Why we love Nymeria (Big Nyms), Nymeria going forward, and how she is one of the “Benchwarmers.”



Post Question: #4: The Wolf Pack dynamic: or how to name-drop Hot Pie and get him back into the story.



Post Question #5: Who the hell is Jaqen H’gar? What is it with that guy?



Post Question #6: Sandor Goes Trick-or-Treating: What is in store for him, especially in the Riverlands? When a Sandor Eulogy Gets Cancelled



Post Question #7

mercy chapter



Post Question #8: Jaime Lannister is going to have a bad day…a really friggin' bad day.



Post Question:#9: Where in the World is Brynden Sandiego?



Post Question #10: Uncat Rises: A Season of Bloom and Doom



Post Question #11: The Hound and The Bull at the Helm: What do they mean to them, to their story, the series, and you.



Post Question #12: Dog the Dog – by LeCygne



Post Question #13: The Orphanage: The Arya Stark Checkpoints, The Tarth Traveller, and One Pissed Off Bull



Post Question #14: The Inn: Come and Knock at my Door, We’ve Been Waiting for You



Post Question #15: The Dayne Defector and Ours has a Fury



Post Question #16: Moving On Up: Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish.



Post Question #17: The Importance of Being Harwin



Post Question #18: Sansa – by LeCygne



Post Question #19: Lord Walder Frey: Freyed Around the Edges



Post Question #20: Edmure Tully: Caught with Your Pants Down



Post Question #21: Elder Brother – by LongRider



Post Question #22: Anguy: On Being Given the Shaft



Post Question #23: Ghost of High Heart: And Why Prophecies Give Me High Blood Pressure



Post Question # 24: Beric Dondarrion – By Sir Percival Blakeney, Baronet


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I was just thinking, since I'm the nookie coordinator and all. :leer:

I've read a lot of classic romances, and this is an interesting trick, and I'm sure you can come up with an Arya and Gendry example, but for both of his Beauty and the Beasts, the Beautys (Beautiful Sansa, Brienne the Beauty) saw the men at their very worst. Sandor was covered in blood and puke, and melting down over the fire, Jaime was covered in piss and poop, and melting down over losing his hand. Sansa put Sandor's icky cloak on herself! And then put it with her summer silks. And couldn't stop thinking about it... and him. Brienne cleaned up Jaime herself, then later, helped him dress after he passed out, and can't stop thinking about him, either. When it's the right one, they can do no wrong... And that's what the author shows...

He's set up some very strong character motivation here... that will continue to play into the story.

(Seriously, I want the Arya and Gendry example! :lol:)

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So, I don't know how this thread works since it is my first time here, I think (hi!), and I guess you've probably covered this already, but I was re-reading the last Jaime chapter in Feast, and my god, is that chapter full of foreshadowing or what?

Anyway, I'm interested in two very tangential characters mentioned in that chapter: Lyle "Strongboar" Crakehall and Raynald Westerling

Strongboar is last seen going to Darry to look for the Hound, whose head Jaime gives permission to chop chop, so I wonder if maybe a Strongboar vs Lem (the new Hound) match is coming. Maybe Strongboar changes course after hearing about Jaime's disappearance and a new Hound sighting at the Inn

As to Raynald, I'm so intrigued by this guy. I mean, GRRM could've killed six ways from Sunday, but he still went out of his way, via a lengthy paragraph, to leave his fate ambiguous. Furthermore, I think, there are a couple more potential foreshadowings here:

1) First, Edwyn Frey says Raynald is most likely "feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork." Obviously that's a common expression, but maybe in this context it could mean that Raynald has rendezvous with the fish (Brynden)

2) Also, Edwyn says they never found his body because drowned bodies all look alike. I might be reading too much into this, but I wonder if this is a hint of sorts about Lady Stoneheart and how drowned bodies don't always stay dead. Not saying Raynald was resurrected, but he could've survived the fall and left

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1.] So, I don't know how this thread works since it is my first time here, I think (hi!), and I guess you've probably covered this already, but I was re-reading the last Jaime chapter in Feast, and my god, is that chapter full of foreshadowing or what?

2.] Anyway, I'm interested in two very tangential characters mentioned in that chapter: Lyle "Strongboar" Crakehall and Raynald Westerling

Strongboar is last seen going to Darry to look for the Hound, whose head Jaime gives permission to chop chop, so I wonder if maybe a Strongboar vs Lem (the new Hound) match is coming. Maybe Strongboar changes course after hearing about Jaime's disappearance and a new Hound sighting at the Inn

3.] As to Raynald, I'm so intrigued by this guy. I mean, GRRM could've killed six ways from Sunday, but he still went out of his way, via a lengthy paragraph, to leave his fate ambiguous. Furthermore, I think, there are a couple more potential foreshadowings here:

1) First, Edwyn Frey says Raynald is most likely "feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork." Obviously that's a common expression, but maybe in this context it could mean that Raynald has rendezvous with the fish (Brynden)

2) Also, Edwyn says they never found his body because drowned bodies all look alike. I might be reading too much into this, but I wonder if this is a hint of sorts about Lady Stoneheart and how drowned bodies don't always stay dead. Not saying Raynald was resurrected, but he could've survived the fall and left

1.] Hi Jon of the (Evil) Dead. Nice post and welcome. And I agree, that chapter is full of great stuff. I think people underestimate Feast and Dance, while they may not be crash, bang, wallop, all the time, the clues to be found and the writing are great. Especially in the RL's.

2.] I think we've noted Strongboar, but I don't think we've covered him in detail, and I like what you've pointed out. That certainly sounds like an option. I haven't noticed or looked into that, I will do so forth with, thanks.

3.] Raynald Westerling however, I have noted before on this thread, and I like your thinking, much the same as mine. No body, a confirmed supporter of Robb's, and a descriptive paragraph on his possible whereabouts after the RW, or if he is alive at all. Also to add to what you already noted, IIRC there was mention of a trail of blood leading to the steps, I always took this as a clue that Raynald survived the fall and was able to attempt a run for safety. And I like the text about 'feeding the fish at the bottom of the river', could very well mean BF, so hard to tell ! :)

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I was just thinking, since I'm the nookie coordinator and all. :leer:

I've read a lot of classic romances, and this is an interesting trick, and I'm sure you can come up with an Arya and Gendry example, but for both of his Beauty and the Beasts, the Beautys (Beautiful Sansa, Brienne the Beauty) saw the men at their very worst. Sandor was covered in blood and puke, and melting down over the fire, Jaime was covered in piss and poop, and melting down over losing his hand. Sansa put Sandor's icky cloak on herself! And then put it with her summer silks. And couldn't stop thinking about it... and him. Brienne cleaned up Jaime herself, then later, helped him dress after he passed out, and can't stop thinking about him, either. When it's the right one, they can do no wrong... And that's what the author shows...

He's set up some very strong character motivation here... that will continue to play into the story.

(Seriously, I want the Arya and Gendry example! :lol:)

Ok, the thoughts are whirling, so let me word it the best I can and I will come back to this…great post and very true. Love how you said it.

Yeah, I see some of the same themes with Arya and Gendry and maybe a few differences too.

But definitely the point was made that both are the right one for the other. I've always said that I think and hope for Arya that it is Gendry or bust. I think if we get any type of romance in future for her it is him. Or nothing. I just can't see anyone else for her.

And for him. Forget about it….she is the best. Beauty, brains, bravery, humor, snappy retorts. And he knows it. Nothing beats the friends and camaraderie first bit.

Oh, and just to let everyone know…Sybell is done. I will post tomorrow. I have to edit still. Also, there is just so much to talk about that it will have to be in two parts.

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JoED said "





1) First, Edwyn Frey says Raynald is most likely "feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork." Obviously that's a common expression, but maybe in this context it could mean that Raynald has rendezvous with the fish (Brynden)


Welcome Jon. I like your thinking here. Trying to figure out the BF leads to madness but perchance this is a clue.



And Strongboar, that could be a bit of a sidetrack, by that I mean an enemy that shows up in an aggressive way instead of the wimpy Freys. One way for some folks other than the BWB to find out it wasn't Sandor at the Saltpans, but Rorge in his helm, mebbee?


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I was just thinking, since I'm the nookie coordinator and all. :leer:

I've read a lot of classic romances, and this is an interesting trick, and I'm sure you can come up with an Arya and Gendry example, but for both of his Beauty and the Beasts, the Beautys (Beautiful Sansa, Brienne the Beauty) saw the men at their very worst. Sandor was covered in blood and puke, and melting down over the fire, Jaime was covered in piss and poop, and melting down over losing his hand. Sansa put Sandor's icky cloak on herself! And then put it with her summer silks. And couldn't stop thinking about it... and him. Brienne cleaned up Jaime herself, then later, helped him dress after he passed out, and can't stop thinking about him, either. When it's the right one, they can do no wrong... And that's what the author shows...

He's set up some very strong character motivation here... that will continue to play into the story.

(Seriously, I want the Arya and Gendry example! :lol:)

Well, she did get to see him naked when she woke him up get them some swords. :leer:

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I was just thinking, since I'm the nookie coordinator and all. :leer:

I've read a lot of classic romances, and this is an interesting trick, and I'm sure you can come up with an Arya and Gendry example, but for both of his Beauty and the Beasts, the Beautys (Beautiful Sansa, Brienne the Beauty) saw the men at their very worst. Sandor was covered in blood and puke, and melting down over the fire, Jaime was covered in piss and poop, and melting down over losing his hand. Sansa put Sandor's icky cloak on herself! And then put it with her summer silks. And couldn't stop thinking about it... and him. Brienne cleaned up Jaime herself, then later, helped him dress after he passed out, and can't stop thinking about him, either. When it's the right one, they can do no wrong... And that's what the author shows...

He's set up some very strong character motivation here... that will continue to play into the story.

(Seriously, I want the Arya and Gendry example! :lol:)

Nookie coordinator ! Ha ! I like it ! :leer:

As for an Arya + Gendry example, I feel I should leave it up to you experts on such matters. But Gendry challenging Arya about where she pisses comes to mind, ' get your cock out and take a piss then ', that's definitely an ice breaker. But not quite the lowly depravation that you have pointed out for the other two scenarios. I don't know, thinking out loud ! :dunno:

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Oh, and just to let everyone know…Sybell is done. I will post tomorrow. I have to edit still. Also, there is just so much to talk about that it will have to be in two parts.

Yey ! Thanks bookie, look forward to that. :D

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Nookie coordinator ! Ha ! I like it ! :leer:

As for an Arya + Gendry example, I feel I should leave it up to you experts on such matters. But Gendry challenging Arya about where she pisses comes to mind, ' get your cock out and take a piss then ', that's definitely an ice breaker. But not quite the lowly depravation that you have pointed out for the other two scenarios. I don't know, thinking out loud ! :dunno:

Then he was all like "uh, I meant get your cock and piss, m'Lady!" :lol:

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So, I don't know how this thread works since it is my first time here, I think (hi!), and I guess you've probably covered this already, but I was re-reading the last Jaime chapter in Feast, and my god, is that chapter full of foreshadowing or what?

Anyway, I'm interested in two very tangential characters mentioned in that chapter: Lyle "Strongboar" Crakehall and Raynald Westerling

Strongboar is last seen going to Darry to look for the Hound, whose head Jaime gives permission to chop chop, so I wonder if maybe a Strongboar vs Lem (the new Hound) match is coming. Maybe Strongboar changes course after hearing about Jaime's disappearance and a new Hound sighting at the Inn

As to Raynald, I'm so intrigued by this guy. I mean, GRRM could've killed six ways from Sunday, but he still went out of his way, via a lengthy paragraph, to leave his fate ambiguous. Furthermore, I think, there are a couple more potential foreshadowings here:

1) First, Edwyn Frey says Raynald is most likely "feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork." Obviously that's a common expression, but maybe in this context it could mean that Raynald has rendezvous with the fish (Brynden)

2) Also, Edwyn says they never found his body because drowned bodies all look alike. I might be reading too much into this, but I wonder if this is a hint of sorts about Lady Stoneheart and how drowned bodies don't always stay dead. Not saying Raynald was resurrected, but he could've survived the fall and left

Hi. Thanks for checking it out. Really like your posts on the forum. Always try to catch your posts because you have good ones which I've noticed over time.

Crakehall has not been covered yet but he is totally coming. We just didn't get there yet. LeCygne totally explained the thread, so he is on the list of upcoming stuff to focus on. We try to take it one person, theme, place, etc at a time, because the overlap in the Riverlands stuff is narrowing and so many things and people are connected.

I agree with you on Reynald. It…eh…something is up. It doesn't sit right knowing what we know and how he words things. Glad you brought him up. I am posting Sybell tomorrow and Jeyne is coming soon too, so I figured Reynald as a Westerling will come up with them too.

We totally never got to that yet, but I don't think he is dead either. I can't say 100% either way. And yeah, "sleep with the fishes" too is an expression. And I would love to have that one close Robb supporter that made it out. I don't know, but I hope he did.

In this series, no body…I have to leave it open then.

And that would be fine, because also Reynald's family well, that got some stuff coming up I think too in the next book.

Lem too is curious. He has been a bit interesting that last few times he appeared. I am very interested in his path upcoming. Another guy we have yet to focus on with an individual write up too but he is coming. Then we are doing a massive BWB focus after all the individuals have been covered.

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Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! :)

Regarding Raynald, he's lately on my list of potential candidates for the Hooded Man. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that Theon saw the man's face (since their eyes meet) and didn't recognize him. I understand other people might not agree with that, but I discarded usual suspects that were known to Theon. Raynald and Theon couldn't possibly met each other since the former only joined Robb's cause after Theon left.

I think it's not impossible for Raynald to blend in with the Frey's common man at arms that went North, but I'm not sure if the timeline fits. What do you guys think?

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Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! :)

Regarding Raynald, he's lately on my list of potential candidates for the Hooded Man. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that Theon saw the man's face (since their eyes meet) and didn't recognize him. I understand other people might not agree with that, but I discarded usual suspects that were known to Theon. Raynald and Theon couldn't possibly met each other since the former only joined Robb's cause after Theon left.

I think it's not impossible for Raynald to blend in with the Frey's common man at arms that went North, but I'm not sure if the timeline fits. What do you guys think?

My first reaction is, then surely Raynald wouldn't know what Theon looked like, and therefore the almost instant reaction towards Theon from the hooded man, as was in the text, wouldn't quite sit right. Theon was wearing gloves, so his disfigurement I don't think would've been any clue ? But I must admit I have been persuaded into the Harwin is the Hooded man camp, so maybe I have my blinkers on ? :P

EDIT : And BTW, I back bookie's opinion, your posts are often clear and backed up with some common sense and good evidence. I think you already got some of us wondering with Strongboar, look forward to any more opinions or posts. :thumbsup:

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According to a timeline I have a link to, it shows the RW on year 299. month 12, day 15 and Theon in WF year 300, month 5 day 25 for the Ramsay/fArya wedding. Theon and Jeyne escape WF on 300 6/23. So according to this Theon was in WF for about a month. If Raynald attended the wedding he could have found out who Theon was then.



Hows that for some fancy speculating footwork. So, the timeline could work if Raynald was at WF for an extended time, mayhaps.


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According to a timeline I have a link to, it shows the RW on year 299. month 12, day 15 and Theon in WF year 300, month 5 day 25 for the Ramsay/fArya wedding. Theon and Jeyne escape WF on 300 6/23. So according to this Theon was in WF for about a month. If Raynald attended the wedding he could have found out who Theon was then.

Hows that for some fancy speculating footwork. So, the timeline could work if Raynald was at WF for an extended time, mayhaps.

Right, fair enough. Good work Longie, that could fit. [ and great detail ! Love the detail ! ] :) Without looking at the text again, IIRC, I felt some surprise in the Hooded man's reaction at seeing Theon. If Raynald was watching him for a period of time, then this would require some good acting skills on the behalf of Raynald when stumbling upon Theon. This of course doesn't rule him out, but I'm not quite convinced.

Harwin searching for clues on Arya and stumbling across Theon, who he probably hadn't spared a thought for in quite a while, to me explains the scenario better. But who knows ? :dunno:

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