The Riverlands Web V.6

[Dya of Oldstones]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! :)

Regarding Raynald, he's lately on my list of potential candidates for the Hooded Man. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that Theon saw the man's face (since their eyes meet) and didn't recognize him. I understand other people might not agree with that, but I discarded usual suspects that were known to Theon. Raynald and Theon couldn't possibly met each other since the former only joined Robb's cause after Theon left.

I think it's not impossible for Raynald to blend in with the Frey's common man at arms that went North, but I'm not sure if the timeline fits. What do you guys think?

Welcome to the Webbers, Jon. I lurk more than post here but was also intrigued by who the Hooded Man is. I'm still with Wizz that Harwin seems a more likely possibility, since most agree the HM knows his way around Winterfell.

[Booknerd2]

Gah. I can't post because I have to let it marinate as an option and think about it. I will say, I would like the idea again of a RW eyewitness like (Reynald)getting out of the RW. Oh, it would be great to have that info and be there. To be the one that said those words to Theon. For many reasons….But after years of tearing my hair out and really being open and reading others thoughts and chewing on this whole Hooded Man thing, my number 1 favorite guess has been Harwin for the longest. Even Howland was second favorite, but that has been fading the more I think about Harwin and how there are some good reasons why it would be a good idea for it to be him. Also, Mr. Reed can't be everywhere, and I am now entertaining other stuff he may have to do before or after leaving home. Still flip-flopping with the Man of Mystery over there. The damn Daynes drive me nuts too. Lol!

Also, we saw Tom007 as the first example that missing BWB might be doing other work compatible with their background and where they could blend in or "fit" the best. Harwin would be perfect at WF. I always thought it had to be for a reason if BWB got LS as a leader, Harwin always being at WF and seeing so many generational Starks, and even the Ned shit that went down in KL, then he sees Arya again, and it is too much. The guy has been witness to like every major Stark moment imaginable. That seeing all this and being a part has to lead to something for that character, or he has to be a link or play a role somehow.

Let me chew on Reynald ( never saw this an idea before) and when I can articulate something decent, I will come back to it. I have to think about it. It is too new for me.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! :)

Regarding Raynald, he's lately on my list of potential candidates for the Hooded Man. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that Theon saw the man's face (since their eyes meet) and didn't recognize him. I understand other people might not agree with that, but I discarded usual suspects that were known to Theon. Raynald and Theon couldn't possibly met each other since the former only joined Robb's cause after Theon left.

I think it's not impossible for Raynald to blend in with the Frey's common man at arms that went North, but I'm not sure if the timeline fits. What do you guys think?

Still in the Harwin camp. But not to ignore this opinion. This is a good point, and I can see where the idea that Theon may never have met this man, is coming from. He doesn't seem to recognise him, but Harwin may have been a figure at WF that Theon didn't have much interaction with, and some time has passed, the HM seems to know WF, etc... But a fair point to be considered nonetheless. :dunno:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Let me chew on Reynald ( never saw this an idea before) and when I can articulate something decent, I will come back to it. I have to think about it. It is too new for me.

Hey bookie, I did post about Raynald a while back, but I think it was probably lost amongst other things I was throwing at you at the time ! :laugh: But yeah, well worth a ponder me thinks. No body to be found, always raises eyebrows. And a confirmed friend and supporter of Robb's, interesting.

[LongRider]

About Harwin, he's from WF and lived there all his life, is that correct? So, if Roose was a Stark bannerman, could Roose and Harwin have met sometime perhaps? And if so, would Roose remember? Also the idea that the HM knows WF well, since the HM only gets a couple of sentences, how is that truly determined? I ask as a devil's advocate.

If the HM was Harwin, a long time resident of WF and the Bolton folks and Freys are there, couldn't he be detected by them since they might have seen him? If all that is true, then someone like Raynald might be a better candidate because he is unknown to the Boltons and Freys. Just my jumbled thoughts.

:unsure:

Edit; Also, Raynald spent time with Robb so the are chances that he heard all about Theon, his past with Robb and the sack and burning of WF, and of course the 'murder' of Bran and Rickon.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Harwin with Stoneheart when they capture Brienne? I think he's the northerner who's "translating" Stoneheart's growls. If so, then he'd have to bypass the Twins, cross the Neck, infiltrate Winterfell and start killing people, all in a nick of time, and I just don't see how he could do that

[LongRider]

We've discussed that and haven't really settled the issue. The translator is described as young, I believe, but isn't Harwin a mature man? After all, he led Arya around on her pony, so she must of been very young-3 or 4 maybe. So, :dunno:

[Good Guy Garlan]

We've discussed that and haven't really settled the issue. The translator is described as young, I believe, but isn't Harwin a mature man? After all, he led Arya around on her pony, so she must of been very young-3 or 4 maybe. So, :dunno:

Hmmm, you're right, I wouldn't describe Harwin as young, especially if he remembers Lyanna, but what other northman could be in Stoneheart's entourage?

[LongRider]

Did Ned send out some northmen with B. Dondarrion when they first went after Gregor? If so, perhaps that could be where one came from. But also, I would have to surmise that a stray northerner or two in the RL hooking up the BWB might not be too much of surprise, considering what they've been through.

If the young man in question was in KL or perhaps survived the RW or some other battle, he could have joined the BWB? I'd like to re-look at Sandor's trail with the BWB as there may be some clue there as aren't many of the BWB named at that time?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Did Ned send out some northmen with B. Dondarrion when they first went after Gregor? If so, perhaps that could be where one came from. But also, I would have to surmise that a stray northerner or two in the RL hooking up the BWB might not be too much of surprise, considering what they've been through.

If the young man in question was in KL or perhaps survived the RW or some other battle, he could have joined the BWB? I'd like to re-look at Sandor's trail with the BWB as there may be some clue there as aren't many of the BWB named at that time?

Well, yeah, it certainly could be, though I don't remember any other northman being named at that time, and to quote Jaqen, a man needs a name :p

[Wizz-The-Smith]

About Harwin, he's from WF and lived there all his life, is that correct? So, if Roose was a Stark bannerman, could Roose and Harwin have met sometime perhaps? And if so, would Roose remember? Also the idea that the HM knows WF well, since the HM only gets a couple of sentences, how is that truly determined? I ask as a devil's advocate.

If the HM was Harwin, a long time resident of WF and the Bolton folks and Freys are there, couldn't he be detected by them since they might have seen him? If all that is true, then someone like Raynald might be a better candidate because he is unknown to the Boltons and Freys. Just my jumbled thoughts.

:unsure:

Edit; Also, Raynald spent time with Robb so the are chances that he heard all about Theon, his past with Robb and the sack and burning of WF, and of course the 'murder' of Bran and Rickon.

1st Bold.] Good point Longie, good to leave no stone unturned. My first thought on Roose is it's a possibility of course. But I don't think Theon recognised Ramsey did he ? Not sure who knows who in the massive north ? But something to think about for sure. As for the HM knowing WF well, you're right to bring that up, I must admit I suppose I've been persuaded that he knew WF well from the fandom and various posts I've read. A couple of lines isn't enough to know that, as you say.

2nd Bold.] I agree with all of this, however I can't shake the idea that the HM seemed instantly surprised to see Theon. Even with info and a back story Raynald still wouldn't know what Theon looked like. And if he had been watching him, therefore able to ID him, why the surprise ?

Maybe that's just my take on it ? I'll have to read that chapter again. :dunno:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hmmm, you're right, I wouldn't describe Harwin as young, especially if he remembers Lyanna, but what other northman could be in Stoneheart's entourage?

Hey Jon, as LongRider said, we've discussed this a bit. I think it's possible that there is another northerner with LSH's entourage. To answer a query from last couple of posts. Ned sent 20 northern men with Beric. Harwin chat's to Arya about the subject.....

Only six Winterfell men remained of the twenty her father had sent west with Beric Dondarrion, Harwin told her, and they were scattered. "It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother's captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin's plan, and when he heard about his brother's capture he attacked your father in the streets of King's Landing." [ Arya III, ASOS.]

So we have six confirmed northmen still with the BWB, albeit some are scattered. Nevertheless, it seems feasible that one of these northern men may still be with LSH's group. :)

While I prefer your idea of Raynald being with the BF, him being the HM could well hold as much weight as Harwin. My feeling is that, as bookie has said, with Tom being so well positioned tactically, I think a logical step would be to do the same at WF, and who better than Harwin. If the man speaking for LSH is one of the other northerners, it would give Harwin time to travel as well.

Still, definitely got me thinking. Always good to see new ideas. :D

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Well, yeah, it certainly could be, though I don't remember any other northman being named at that time, and to quote Jaqen, a man needs a name :P

Nice Jaqen quote.

But what if the man with a name was on a secret mission ? Suddenly the term 'northerner' to describe this man present within LSH's group becomes unclear. Maybe hiding the fact that Harwin isn't there ?

Ha ! Ignore me, struggling to get out of the Harwin camp ! Still chewing over Raynald. :P

[LongRider]

Nice Jaqen quote.

But what if the man with a name was on a secret mission ? Suddenly the term 'northerner' to describe this man present within LSH's group becomes unclear. Maybe hiding the fact that Harwin isn't there ?

Ha ! Ignore me, struggling to get out of the Harwin camp ! Still chewing over Raynald. :P

I have to laff at myself about this because other than sussing out possible details (which is fun) I don't have an interest in the HM. Personally, I doubt we'll see him again. Whatev, it's all in good fun.

:thumbsup:

[Booknerd2]

Post Question #25: Sybell Spicer is in Deep Shit – Part 1

Yeah….uh, she is.

Like I wouldn’t want to be her right about now. Really, I wouldn’t.

But a little background:

Sybell is remarked to be handsome and older, so she might have been a beauty in her youth. And she is also described as “stern.” She is married to Gawen Westerling. (Immediately upon seeing her husband’s name I thought of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.) Now it has been a long time since I read that so no interesting things to note, if any, popped into my mind, as I need a refresher, but if there are any parallels by all means point it out. Which is hard to do anyway for him specifically, because we don’t hear much about the husband. Er, Sybell is getting into enough trouble and tangled crap on her own.

Would love to hear from him though, like what his thoughts are regarding most of his wife’s actions. What is his take? How much has heard, does he know, or if not yet, what will he hear? Remember, Jeyne was not so controllable even in front of Jaime with her mother, I think she will have no qualms about telling her father anything. Even…say her mother would rather she didn’t?

He had once offered Jeyne in marriage to the Lannisters but was rejected, he was imprisoned for a time at Seaguard, and Jeyne was married to Robb Stark without his say. He was pardoned after the Red Wedding, and he was concerned regarding his family. They er, were entangled to the other side…meaning not the Lannisters.

So as far as his wife’s antics, we are not sure how much he knows. But Kevan does think he is a good guy…but still, we don’t know if he has the spunk or is quite the pip that Sybell is.

But…her ballsy attitude is well, cause for concern, well, I’d be concerned if I were her. She took many risks, and er, it didn’t seem to pan out for her.

Now, I still don’t know what to make of Jeyne and Robb. Love, yeah, lust, sure….and people have interesting ideas too. Perhaps a bit of Florence Nightingale and the pretty “nurse” in war time trope sealing the deal, maybe. It seemed like they made each other happy. But it is so hard when you weigh it against what happened. Dude, couldn’t you wait? And not that it would have mattered with Lord Walder, but, so yeah, these thoughts crossed my mind, but I had a change of heart a bit during Jaime VII in AFFC. More on that later…

Do I wish he didn’t marry her after we saw what the price was…yeah. Was meeting Roslin Frey a kick to the balls thinking he’d get a nice girl and be alive. Sure. And the girl on the show was beautiful so having the visual didn’t help my inclination to second guess that stuff either. I could have seen her with Robb. Now we are here to discuss the book, but that kick to that pants reveal on HBO of Roslin, well, hey, it hurt, knowing what was coming. Do I think in general Robb could have done better? Yes. Not even Roslin, but at first, the whole whirlwind/it happened so fast bit caught me and made me a bit wary for some time. But that is probably because we don’t know much about Jeyne. Do I secretly resent her if she knew the Frey deal wishing she had some impulse control? Yeah. But I also admit it takes two to Tango, and that I shouldn’t be blaming her...well, maybe a little. Well, until AFFC VII. Shit changed for me. Why? More info. And a defiant and fiery Jeyne appeared.

But they are not the issue. The issue is others of course, all involved in the RW.

And of course, our focus, Sybell Spicer Westerling…

So Sybell is ok with the marriage thing after having Jeyne rejected by the Lannisters. She is all in until that marriage is not advantageous to her anymore. How very Borgia of her.

You know being mother in law of King in the North and mother of Queen of the North had a nice ring to it for her. Short-lived. Enter Tywin.

Then Sybell plans and carries out betraying Robb. And it messes up and results in tragedy for many other people too. You know…LIKE HER OWN DAUGHTER! And her family. Because I think we know those damn repercussions are coming.

I thought of Hagrid. “There is a storm coming, Harry…” Change it to Sybell and the Westerling family. Because I fear she did it, and her family is going to pay for it.

Possibly Reynald already did. Or maybe he didn’t. More on that later too. Because I am not convinced he is absolutely dead. Yet. And people have interesting ideas regarding him also which has been brought up.

The premeditation of it all on her part just makes it even worse. And she is the first of the architects that we see already, that they are going to regret that blasted reception for the rest of their lives.

I am sure she already does. Or I think she did once she had her tete a tete with Jaime.

She has absolutely no regard for her daughter’s feelings. Truly a prime example of some cases where the parents view their daughter as a pawn and being obedient a duty, you know, like Tywin and Cersei.

Sybell…well, she sucks. Big time.

I do warm more to Jeyne when she shows some defiance after the RW to her mother. I like that she has some spirit to her. And she doesn’t care that Jaime is there too. I like that.

So still Jeyne is part and parcel of the RW, Inc. machinations that killed and/or imprisoned Robb and Cat and some of our beloved Northerners and Riverlanders. Even Grey Wind got killed due to this. Oh, and those RW captives are seething and their families are steaming and stewing. Look at Wyman. That is only one of many.

So is Barbrey “Michael Corleone” Dustin. She deserves an Academy Award for that For-Theon monologue that is really insurance against Ramsay and feeding a hook to a fish. Insurance. Not all she really thinks. Using past truths and exaggeration for her agenda today.

Yes, I hate Sybell. And I will tell you about my popcorn-watch fist pump moment coming up.

Oh, it was so enjoyable!

Then things start to sour for Sybell.

Her daughter can’t stand her and knows what she did. Her son is missing, presumed dead. I can only imagine her husband’s opinion of some her antics and decisions, because they affect him and his children, and hell, his House. Or when he finds everything out and it sinks in. And I do worry about the boy and girl left. Yup, this does reach them too. Or it could. Oh…it will. And it will be all Sybell’s fault. She is also responsible for whatever happened to Reynald also.

Wait until Jaime’s lash out fully sinks in…Oh…boy…

And now one of the highlights for me of the series…

Her words with Jaime:

Basically, Jaime’s: Oh, snap, in your face, talk to the hand, I am throwing you serious shade, you make me sick, and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out, shut up and die and live with it, get out of my sight, remember? rant.

Because goddamn he let her have it.

And I relished every friggin’ minute of it. I basked in it. The eggs on her face, that is.

Oh, did I mention that I really hate her guts?

Oh, I mentally cheered him on. It was satisfying. You tell her, Kingslayer…that’s right.

But a piece of me did realize who is talking to her. He has been moving in a great direction but he is one to talk about mocking and ridiculing someone for being blatantly self-serving. Through some of his own despicable actions and old mentality that seems to be shifting, well, they came to mind in a way. Hell, his last name alone. Self-serving courses through any Lannisters veins like all hell, or most of them that we met.

So, I let it go. For now. I like the evolving Jaime and it has to continue. But I give a lot of credit to the good soul that I have a soft spot for, Brienne. I like Jaime because she does. I admit it. It is her good word that has guided me and helped me with the shift. And of course some of his current actions and inner dialogues have certainly helped.

If he backstabs her, it is back to the way things were. He is dead to me. But honestly, I think it is the real thing. I don’t think he will do it. I really think he cares for her, and much, much more than he knows. And it is apparent he is not happy with many of his choices and who he has become. That Joanna dream was a sonofabitch.

So that is my warning to Jaime. Mess up with “The Beauty…” see what happens, Guy! Then I am dropping you for good.

So some highlights:

Get some popcorn ready…but first the hard to swallow part.

It is already tense when Jaime encounters mother and daughter. This scene made me respect Jeyne more and see what Robb might have seen. She is defiant to her mother and Jaime and I did respect it. She shows some conviction, bravery, and fight in her. And I think it served its purpose and proves again what a sucker for romance and a softie I am.

I said to myself: If this is who this girl is, I regret nothing that her and Robb did. If she truly loved him and he did her, and she is still prepared to honor and fight for his memory, then I was wrong before. I truly admit it. She doesn’t care that her mom is trying to slap stuff out of her, and Jaime who intimidates many, does not intimidate her. So I gave Jeyne some props.

So it was worth it to betray the Freys. Screw Lord Walder. He sucked and never pulled his weight, he is too sensitive and touchy, he is a whiner, and he got enough out of the Starks and Tullys. So I stopped any small wistful feelings of wishing things were different and that Robb and her might’ve waited. Over. Water under the bridge. It seems this was Jeyne’s “Wylla Manderly” moment. Like them both. I like guts.

But Sybell and Rolph Spicer can still kiss my ass.

It is apparent that Sybell has no qualms about getting physical with her daughter. It hangs in the air, that if she is not with the program, then Sybell will put her ass in line. It really pissed me off. No respect for her as a matron even now after having married. It shows just what esteem too that Sybell ever held Queen in the north. It is worthless to her now. Like she is still her little girl pawn again, and she made her and owns her. So she is going to move her “piece” on the board yet again.

So I had a few choice words, yet the author gave us a gift. He let Jaime do the ranting…for me…for us. It was great! He totally told her ass OFF!

Basically Sybell ruining Jeyne’s life and then treating her like that was hard to read.

I remembered too how much I hate Tywin…

Then I saw how long this is and realized there is a lot to pick apart above. Sorry, looks like a two parter…to be continued.

When we next pick up. The Jaime and Sybell show down. Can’t wait. Stay tuned.

[Le Cygne]

Basically, Jaime’s: Oh, snap, in your face, talk to the hand, I am throwing you serious shade, you make me sick, and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out, shut up and die and live with it, get out of my sight, remember? rant.

Because goddamn he let her have it.

And I relished every friggin’ minute of it. I basked in it. The eggs on her face, that is.

Oh, did I mention that I really hate her guts?

Oh, I mentally cheered him on. It was satisfying. You tell her, Kingslayer…that’s right.

That was fabulous! I quoted my favorite part, I couldn't stop laughing for a while.

No worries about Jaime, he won't betray Brienne. Those are my two favorite romances, Jaime/Brienne and Sansa/Sandor, because he's so beautifully showing them fall in love, and the reader knows, but they don't know, and then they know, and none of them turn away from it, even though it's something completely new to them, they just go with it...

Anyway... no worries there, and can't wait for part 2! So the more you hate someone, the longer it gets, I like that! :lol:

[Maid So Fair]

I was just rereading the Brienne chapter where she meets the Sparrows led by the future High Septon and there's this bit:

Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested.

I'm assuming the first sentence refers to the Brave Companions, though it might be interesting to find the actual events and see if there's any link to the current politics of the HS etc. But the second sentence is more interesting, since it's then elaborated upon with one of Brienne's companions remarking on what a monster would rape a silent sister. Assuming this is not just mentioned at random, is it possible that this is what's happened to Ned's bones? Lost on the road? :(

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Great post bookie ! I agree with everything you wrote. I like your take on Gawan as well, what is up with that ? We don't get any real indication as to what his thoughts are, or any involvement at all really. It all seems to go through Sybell.

And I agree with your final opinion on Jeyne. She definitely shows some guts by standing up to her mother, and in front of Jaime as well. I like her, and I think that she still holds importance to the Riverlanders and northerners, and the BF in particular. I think you mentioned it, but this may have been a small part of the attraction for Robb in the first place ?

Talking of strong Spicer/Westerling women, and Sybell using the 'moon tea', or whatever that was, on Jeyne. When looking into Sybell, there's a strong connection that she is the grandaughter of Maggy the Frog. In fact the wiki straight out says it, I know it's not always 100 %, but this seems right. We have this from Kevan Lannister while talking to Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei.....

Lady Sybell’s grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he’d brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like.” [ Tyrion III, ASOS.]

This sure does sound like the Maggy the Frog we know about in the Westerlands from some years ago, giving young Cersei her nightmare prophecy. There's a couple of threads on this info, but just that really, the info. But I'm wondering what, if any pay off or connection that George could have up his sleeve here. It seems a bit too coincidental for these two story lines to overlap, I dunno. But still interesting, and worth pointing out. :dunno:

[Le Cygne]

like your take on Garwan as well, what is up with that ? We don't get any real indication as to what his thoughts are, or any involvement at all really. It all seems to go through Sybell.

Interesting that Ser Forley didn't like the thought of telling his archers to shoot "Gawen's girl" if she escaped.

And I agree with your final opinion on Jeyne. She definitely shows some guts by standing up to her mother, and in front of Jaime as well. I like her, and I think that she still holds importance to the Riverlanders and northerners, and the BF in particular. I think you mentioned it, but this may have been a small part of the attraction for Robb in the first place ?

I didn't want to say much more because Bookie hasn't finished yet, but I also like the part where Jeyne tears her dress in mourning.

Lady Sybell’s grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he’d brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like.”

Cool, I missed that.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I didn't want to say much more because Bookie hasn't finished yet, but I also like the part where Jeyne tears her dress in mourning.

Cool, I missed that.

Ah, sorry if I said too much bookie, I should've waited till you posted again, my bad. :dunce: