The Brown Dragon - A Speculation about Nettles' heritage

[Lord Varys]

In short - I'm entertaining the idea that Nettles is Prince Daemon's unrecognized bastard daughter.

Nettles is sixteen years old in the second half of 129 AC, which that she was conceived in 112/3 AC, depending on her exact birthday.

We know that Nettles is of mixed descent, suggesting that she may be the child of some sailor or a dockside whore. Now, we know that Daemon went back to Stepstones following his short stint at court following the anniversary tourney in 111 AC, and was never farther away from the throne than in the following years, as Viserys had forbidden him to return under pain of death.

It would still be some years until Rhea Royce died, and Daemon married Laena Velaryon, thus we can be reasonably sure that Daemon had other lovers and affairs during those years, especially at his 'court' (or most likely, rather in his camp) on the Stepstones.

It would be easily imaginable that Nettles' mother was a camp follower, a corsair woman, or just a whore he chanced upon. That woman may eventually have ended up on Dragonstone or Driftmark, traveling aboard one of the Sea Snake's ships.

Such a scenario would not necessarily mean that Nettles and Daemon did not have an affair, as the Targaryen incest could easily extend to father and daughter as well as brother and sister. But in my opinion it is not yet conclusively proven that Nettles and Daemon had an affair, as Daemon's reaction on Rhaenyra's command to execute Nettles rather seems to break his heart instead to enrage him (which would have been the case if he had been Nettles' lover, I assume). Instead of trying to fight for himself and Nettles, he sends her away and effectively throws away his life. That is strange in any case, but especially strange if he had really deep romantic feelings for Nettles. As a mere father his concern may have been to get his daughter to safety, and to die a glorious death (if we assume that he did die over the Gods Eye, which is not confirmed).

Any thoughts on that one?

[Wmarshal]

If this is the case I doubt Daemon would bed her, call the Targ what you will, but daughter bedding isn't there style.

[Lord Varys]

He slept with and eventually married his niece, though. And considering that he most likely would only have learned about this daughter during the Dance (that is, after he and Rhaenyra had taken KL), he would not really have had fatherly feelings for her, considering the fact that he had never met her before that.

[Wmarshal]

He slept with and eventually married his niece, though. And considering that he most likely would only have learned about this daughter during the Dance (that is, after he and Rhaenyra had taken KL), he would not really have had fatherly feelings for her, considering the fact that he had never met her before that.

But it is his daughter, it is like saying just because the Starks bred uncle to niece they would jump their daughters bones. They are gross, but you can't imagine them going that gross.

[Lord Varys]

The Targaryens were accustomed to incest, the Starks (presumably) were not. We don't even know if this uncle-daughter marriage thing was a way to emulate the Targaryens rather than something the Starks had done for centuries (although I'd not be surprised if they did). But still, brother-sister marriages being considered ideal, it would not be surprising for a Targaryen to marry his own daughter.

[Bael's Bastard]

My impression after reading TPATQ the first time was that Nettles was really Daemon's daughter, not his lover. I guess it doesn't have to be one or the other, but I think nobody ever suspected that she was his daughter, and that being his lover was the only plausible explanation those responsible could come up with for the closeness between them.

[RumHam]

While it was left vague enough in The Princess and the Queen, the worldbook confirms they were lovers.

but Nettles’s loyalties were not so clear as brave Ser Addam’s. When she and Prince Daemon became lovers, it drove a final wedge between Rhaenyra and her lord husband.

But I agree this doesn't rule out her being his daughter.

[Aemond's Eye]

Is there not a line in The Rogue Prince that refers to Baela and Rhaena as his first trueborn children? We know that Mysario lost the child she was carrying, and there's no mention of her ever having another pregnancy through Daemon. So if I am remembering the "trueborn" part and not just misremembering, then that could be a subtle hint that Daemon had bastards somewhere or another. If so, then it is possible that Nettles was his daughter - and if Rhaenyra knew and still declared her a traitor, it would explain "a queen's words, a whore's work" just as easily as Rhaenyra knowing she was his paramour.

The world book does state that they're lovers, but it could be that Daemon bedded his own bastard daughter - perhaps knowingly or unknowingly - or it's something the maesters considered fact but isn't actually true. Just like other things in the world book.

[DarkSister1001]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123757-the-back-of-a-westeros-milk-carton/?p=6668249

[Bael's Bastard]

While it was left vague enough in The Princess and the Queen, the worldbook confirms they were lovers.

But I agree this doesn't rule out her being his daughter.

Personally, I didn't find the statements in TWOIAF any more convincing than the ones in TPATQ. I don't doubt that it was the popular or widely accepted explanation of their relationship. I am just not convinced it was actually what occurred. Though I don't dispute that it could be true, and that being his daughter and his lover could also be true (elsewhere, TWOIAF includes the suggestion that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon IV's daughter as well as lover).

[Veltigar]

Personally, I didn't find the statements in TWOIAF any more convincing than the ones in TPATQ. I don't doubt that it was the popular or widely accepted explanation of their relationship. I am just not convinced it was actually what occurred.

:agree:

In short - I'm entertaining the idea that Nettles is Prince Daemon's unrecognized bastard daughter.

I have always thought this as well.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The World Book also said that Elia killed her own children. Considering Daemon and Rhaenyra were "traitors", I wouldn't doubt they are trying to make them sound as vile as possible, and make them look like lusty monsters who never got enough.

I agree it's likely she's his daughter, and he kept her close to protect her, even keeping her in his own bedroom. Wouldn't be the first time in fiction when a child is thought to be a lover by mistake. The historians are simply assuming the most obvious explanation.

[RumHam]

The World Book also said that Elia killed her own children. Considering Daemon and Rhaenyra were "traitors", I wouldn't doubt they are trying to make them sound as vile as possible, and make them look like lusty monsters who never got enough.

Actually it doesn't. It says that some people whisper that she did. Obviously Yandel is being coy there because he doesn't want to offend the Lannisters. I can't imagine why he would worry about making people who have been dead for a hundred years sound as vile as possible. He's just reporting that Rhaenyra accused Nettles of high treason and sentenced her to death for sleeping with Daemon. We can be reasonably sure this happened, as the Chronicles of Maidenpool confirm it. So don't try to pass it off as the maester's bias.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Actually it doesn't. It says that some people whisper that she did. Obviously Yandel is being coy there because he doesn't want to offend the Lannisters. I can't imagine why he would worry about making people who have been dead for a hundred years sound as vile as possible. He's just reporting that Rhaenyra accused Nettles of high treason and sentenced her to death for sleeping with Daemon. We can be reasonably sure this happened, as the Chronicles of Maidenpool confirm it. So don't try to pass it off as the maester's bias.

It's not the maester' bias but history's bias. A lot of rumours about him and Rhaenyra were definitely flying around during the time of the war. Haven't we already read some of those during TPATQ and TRP?

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I got the impression that Nettles was his daughter as well...and the TWoIaF just changes history to favor the 'winning' side. Since it is written history by a Maester...we can assume that some of the facts are wrong or skewed.

And aren't we going to get an unabridged version of TRP & TPatQ at some point down the road?

[Lord Varys]

If Yandel had elaborated on the love story of Daemon and Nettles - that is, cited his sources, explained what exactly happened etc. - I'd say the love story is confirmed, but this really is not the case. We got much more on Nettles/Daemon in TPatQ than in TWoIaF, and virtually nothing new but the tidbit on her and the Burned Men (and I did not even catch that during the first read).

I'm also not sure we got the full picture of the Maidenpool, the whole heroic maester included - who happens to keep the Chronicles of Maidenpool. There is another incident during the Dance in which a maester possibly acted as a Green agent - when the maester of Storm's End read Rhaenyra's letter to illiterate Lord Borros. George definitely did not include this minor tidbit so that we would not consider the possibility that the maester did not whisper Lord Borros the actual contents of the letter into his ear.

In the Maidenpool episode there are other unknowns, especially the how and when of Rhaenyra's letter reaching Maidenpool, and her writing the letter. This would be a really important moment in Gyldayn's history, as the decision to command Nettles' execution clearly was one of the main mistakes Rhaenyra made which led to her downfall. I imagine any historian discussing the topic in detail would try to uncover what exactly led to her make that decision.

Yandel explicitly states that this whole thing drove a wedge between Rhaenyra and Daemon, and considering the fact that a war was going on which Rhaenyra was about to win, there may have been people at large who had a vital interest to drive such a wedge between the queen and her consort. Not to mention that the whole episode ended with House Mooton declaring for Aegon II.

It is in the Realm of possibility that Rhaenyra never wrote such a letter (then the Maidenpool maester would have made it up to convince Lord Mooton to declare for Aegon II - which I think he did in any case, as this whole 'I'm a bad maester and a traitor, Prince Daemon praising my greatness, and I'm going to sacrifice myself for my lord's honor' story is way over the top to be taken without a grain of salt), or a Green agent at court forged such an order. Such ploys are part of warfare, and may not be successfully uncovered by later historians - just as many intrigues of Varys and Littlefinger will never find their way into the histories.

Gyldayn's 'corrupted text' from TPatQ only seems to confirm that Daemon and Nettles slept in the same chamber. What they did there we do not know - they could just have talked or be close to each other without having an actual sexual relationship. Say, if Daemon wanted to make up for all the time he sucked as a father - he really was getting soft in the end, that's pretty obvious. But I'd not be surprised if they fell in love with each other even if they were father and daughter (or perhaps exactly because this was the case).

Daemon's biography still contains a huge amount of blank spaces as well, as we do not get a clear picture on his later relationship to Mysaria, nor what role she played during the Dance following Blood and Cheese. Her presence at Rhaenyra's court during the riots suggests that Rhaenyra named her officially Mistress of Whisperers.

It is also not unlikely that George has not yet gotten to the end of Nettles' story, as it is not unlikely that Gyldayn will cover her later life when he turns to the fate of the last surviving Targaryen dragons during the account on the reign of Aegon III - as of yet, Gyldayn's 'Fire and Blood' stops at the end of the Regency, and I imagine that Sheepstealer and Nettles did neither resurface nor die during that time.

[RumHam]

It's not the maester' bias but history's bias. A lot of rumours about him and Rhaenyra were definitely flying around during the time of the war. Haven't we already read some of those during TPATQ and TRP?

We do hear a lot of unconfirmed stories about Rhaenyra and Daemon in The Rogue Prince, yeah. Usually conflicting accounts from Mushroom and Eustace.

I got the impression that Nettles was his daughter as well...and the TWoIaF just changes history to favor the 'winning' side. Since it is written history by a Maester...we can assume that some of the facts are wrong or skewed.

Actually I think most people would agree Rhaenyra's side won, she just wasn't alive to see it. Anyway I don't really see the value of painting Daemon as an adulterer to discredit him or smear his memory. We already know he cheated on lady Royce, and that he's done far worse things.

And aren't we going to get an unabridged version of TRP & TPatQ at some point down the road?

Yeah, but not for years. He wants to finish the series first and probably do more Dunk & Egg.

Daemon's biography still contains a huge amount of blank spaces as well, as we do not get a clear picture on his later relationship to Mysaria, nor what role she played during the Dance following Blood and Cheese. Her presence at Rhaenyra's court during the riots suggests that Rhaenyra named her officially Mistress of Whisperers.

The worldbook confirms that she was Mistress of Whisperers. Bloodraven is said to be the best Master of Whisperers since Mysaria.

[Lord Varys]

Ah, right, but since it also states that she eventually became 'Daemon's Mistress of Whisperers' I guess there is still the possibility that she was a sort of unofficial 'private intelligence operative'. But it is very likely that Rhaenyra appointed her to the position officially.

[ar3t3]

Obviusly Daemon did care for Nettles. But if she was his daughter why would he care more for her than his other children, who also might have been in danger after the Treason of Tumbleton. And if Nettle was also his lover I can see him being ok with incest, but why would she consent to such relationship?

[Bael's Bastard]

Actually it doesn't. It says that some people whisper that she did. Obviously Yandel is being coy there because he doesn't want to offend the Lannisters. I can't imagine why he would worry about making people who have been dead for a hundred years sound as vile as possible. He's just reporting that Rhaenyra accused Nettles of high treason and sentenced her to death for sleeping with Daemon. We can be reasonably sure this happened, as the Chronicles of Maidenpool confirm it. So don't try to pass it off as the maester's bias.

It's not that Yandel is trying to smear anyone, just that the sources he uses might take for granted things that may not be true.