Varys and Baelish co-conspirators

[Lady of the Falls]

IDK if it's been said in this or any other forum, but Varys and LF aren't major adversaries like the show makes them to be. Aside from a little trash talk I don't see them plotting against one another. I just found it strange that LF would tell Catelyn that Tryrion owned the knife that tried to kill her son. Which is major, life threating information to anyone if they found out, yet he said it in front of Varys. That is a big bit of info to put in the hand of a enemy. One word of it to anyone and it get to the Lannisters he's a dead man. He's so on top of his scheming, getting Sansa, the Eyrie, getting rid of Joff and framing Tyrion for it. All that and more it's just crazy that he says it in front of Varys. That will jam LF up at anytime if Varys opens his mouth. It's just a nagging thought that's always bothered me about that incounter.

[239JMFL34109]

i think they work with and against each other all the time. just about getting power

[Petyr's Little Finger]

The show tries to portray them as completely against each other which is complete nonsense. At the same time they aren't co- conspirators. The long term goal of LF is self advancement, he is trying to put himself in a high position. We don't know what is his exact goal. Varys' goal seems clear now, he wants Aegon/Young Griff/(F)Aegon/what ever you want to call him, to sit the Iron Throne. This is where they differ. In AGoT they have the same short term goal, the breaking apart of the Lannister-Stark-Baratheon-Arryn-Tully alliance that kicked out the Targaryens and kept Westeros stable throughout Robert's reign. This is where the dagger lie comes in. My theory is that Varys knows that LF is a man of ambition and wants chaos, Varys also knows about Petyr's childhood friendship with Catelyn who is the wife of the Lord of Winterfell. Varys thinks that he has a useful pawn in LF. So Varys goes along with LF's lie knowing that tension will increase between the Starks and the Lannisters, something that suits him perfectly. At this point they seem to be working closely or at least their goals are the same. However Varys underestimates LF. Varys wants civil war to erupt in Westeros at around the same time as Young Griff is ready to land in Westeros and claim the throne. LF wants chaos and anarchy in Westeros as soon as possible and he guides Ned towards the twincest, knowing open war will break out between the Starks and the Lannisters soon after the twincest is revealed. Again this is where Varys' and LF's goals differ.

Both of them are highly competent players of the game, they are not enemies but they aren't buddies either.

[DMC]

This is a very interesting question. First off, while the show certainly overstates their rivalry, I've never had a problem with it. Their show relationship is a very efficient adaptation in providing exposition, the actors have great chemistry, and the TV format enables the audience to see more of these exchanges than the POV format - which is great if they're two of your favorite characters.

Anyway, the question actually made me go back and reread the chapter. It seems to me based on the context of the conversation there was little risk in LF blaming Tyrion in front of Varys. First off, because Varys could never provide anything resembling proof of this in the future unless Cat corroborated (in which case LF would be fucked anyway), and secondly because Varys would be seen as equally complicit if he ratted LF in terms of sneaking around behind the Lannisters' backs. Logically, it's analogous to robbing a drug dealer. It does reveal to Varys LF's intent to sow animus between lion and wolf, but that would be apparent to Varys soon enough anyway.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The show isn't necessarily exaggerating their competition. If you remember the scene in the show where Bronn and Sandor almost fight before the Blackwater, GRRM said that really happened in the books, but that there was no POV there to show it. That could be true of the interactions between Varys and LF as well. It should be noted that there were additional interactions between Varys and LF all the way back in the first season of the show when it stuck with the books almost exactly.

[Lady of the Falls]

The show tries to portray them as completely against each other which is complete nonsense. At the same time they aren't co- conspirators. The long term goal of LF is self advancement, he is trying to put himself in a high position. We don't know what is his exact goal. Varys' goal seems clear now, he wants Aegon/Young Griff/(F)Aegon/what ever you want to call him, to sit the Iron Throne. This is where they differ. In AGoT they have the same short term goal, the breaking apart of the Lannister-Stark-Baratheon-Arryn-Tully alliance that kicked out the Targaryens and kept Westeros stable throughout Robert's reign. This is where the dagger lie comes in. My theory is that Varys knows that LF is a man of ambition and wants chaos, Varys also knows about Petyr's childhood friendship with Catelyn who is the wife of the Lord of Winterfell. Varys thinks that he has a useful pawn in LF. So Varys goes along with LF's lie knowing that tension will increase between the Starks and the Lannisters, something that suits him perfectly. At this point they seem to be working closely or at least their goals are the same. However Varys underestimates LF. Varys wants civil war to erupt in Westeros at around the same time as Young Griff is ready to land in Westeros and claim the throne. LF wants chaos and anarchy in Westeros as soon as possible and he guides Ned towards the twincest, knowing open war will break out between the Starks and the Lannisters soon after the twincest is revealed. Again this is where Varys' and LF's goals differ.

Both of them are highly competent players of the game, they are not enemies but they aren't buddies either.

makes sense, Yeah They both benefit from the Starks and Lannisters fighting. But I know LF is self swerving and Varys wants Targs back. Thanks

[Lady of the Falls]

The show isn't necessarily exaggerating their competition. If you remember the scene in the show where Bronn and Sandor almost fight before the Blackwater, GRRM said that really happened in the books, but that there was no POV there to show it. That could be true of the interactions between Varys and LF as well. It should be noted that there were additional interactions between Varys and LF all the way back in the first season

Gotcha, Yeah the beginning of the series I like more than now, That's the reason I bought the books and got into AWoIaF. I wished it had stayed truer to the books. I know time is the issue, they would have had more if they left out the unnecessary things that didn't even happen in books. Shoot they wasted a show episode season4 the one when Bran got captured and the Goat took him before Hodor broke him in two lol, and following the WW w/ the baby. whole episode wasted!!

[Maid So Fair]

I don't think they work against each other unless something important both of them care about is at stake. For instance, if Varys was aware of LF's plot and the results would benefit Varys, he wouldn't interfere and might help push it along. Now Varys is openly (in a manner of speaking) backing Aegon, this might change.

The first example is a flawed one IMHO as in that context no one would ever believe Varys over LF anyway, so telling the truth would be counter-productive as it would limit his access to Ned.

[joluoto2]

They piggyback each other's plots, but only advance their own agendas. So no, they are not co-conspirators, their agendas seem to be very different.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

LF and Varys are in opposition to one another in that they are the two highest-order schemers in the kingdom; they can't but be rivals.

In the books, it's more subtle. LF seeks to advance his own interests and relentlessly causes havoc, because he knows he's good at navigating around chaos; you see it in how he's quick to modify his plans to suit a situation and how he's not afraid of stirring the pot even when it's very risky (telling Cat that the dagger was Tyrion's - so easily verified as a lie). Varys has a clearly set goal which seems to be focused more on what's good for the realm than on his personal advancement.

Their intentions are opposite: Varys is destabilising the kingdom because he wants to bring over a "good" king, while LF is destabilising the kingdom just to benefit himself (while also profiting from Varys' actions).

However, Varys will need to contend with the consequences of his admittedly more noble intentions, because ultimately he schemed for lots of people to die and for the realm to be at war, so it's ready for Aegon. The damage he does is very real, no less real than the damage LF's scheming does.

It's a question for the reader of whether their intentions are relevant, considering that the consequences of their chosen methods in pursuing their different intentions are so similar (chaos, conflict, death, war).

So in the books the "rivalry" is more ideological, and we don't see much face to face. In the TV show, they just had to make the rivalry more explicit because it's easier to explain it that way (since the show is so pressed for time in every episode).