I Don't Understand the Tyrells

[C.T. Phipps]

The answer is obvious but people are missing it.

The Tyrells don't have authority over their bannermen.

The Reach is the most powerful of all regions and it is ruled by four or five almost-equally powerful houses:

Hightower
Florent
Tyrell

Tarlly

And so on and so on.

The Tyrells have nothing to make them stronger. They're a house which is ruler of the reach in name only.

[oopeed]

They are glorified dogs. That's the reason.

Along with the Arryns, they are the only great house that can't track their origin to valyrian or first men forefathers, so no magic to any of them. The only reason they came to power was because Mern chose to go and die in the field of fire and they happened to be the closest people to Highgarden since they took care of it for their masters, but more than once it has been proven that they are not the overlord of the reach since Hightowers, Redwynes and Florents have been in opposite sides of wars.

They can't go assertively and grab the power even if they have the resources since no one would really follow them because they are just glorified dogs. They have to manouvre, eat the remains of their masters and then when the opportunity arouses, they steal a tasty boon from the table, yet they can't sit at it and share it with the true overlords.

Lanns, Targs, Baratheons, LF and the Cheesemongers are playing the high stakes game... The mongrels like Tyrells and Greyjoys have advanced because of chance, but since they are not even invited to the table, they can't win.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's twofold.

1. Yes, they were never kings and as such would have a hard time drumming up support for their legitimacy if they tried to take the throne. There are houses in the Reach that resent them for simply being the lords paramount because they're just stewards. Imagine the uproar if they tried to establish themselves as the royal family in their own right.

2. This, more than the first: They're risk-averse. They apparently sat out the Field of Fire ("We'll stay behind and guard Highgarden"?), and pretty much immediately folded to Aegon. Mace took probably the easiest assignment in the entire Rebellion, sitting at Storm's End waiting for Stannis to starve. They backed Renly when they thought for sure he was the safe bet, and after him, the Lannisters became the safe bet. If they can keep their money and extend their influence without expending much risk, why not do it? They have it set up so they're not the ones left holding the hot potato, which wouldn't be the case if they made a play for the throne and a painted a bulls-eye on themselves.

[Lee-Sensei]

@Merengues

1) So? The only Great House benefitting from magic right now are the Targaryens. No Great House besides the Starks and Targs have used magic, and all of the Houses are mixed anyways.

2) The Redwynes were never on the against them. The Hightowers are pseudo-Great Powers and the Florents originally sided with Renly and have lost their seat since going over to Stannis.

3) The Tyrells aren't dogs. I don't know why you keep saying it.

4) Really? Because last I checked, Mace Tyrell was Hand of the King ruling the Westeros for Tommen.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

2. This, more than the first: They're risk-averse. They apparently sat out the Field of Fire ("We'll stay behind and guard Highgarden"?), and pretty much immediately folded to Aegon. Mace took probably the easiest assignment in the entire Rebellion, sitting at Storm's End waiting for Stannis to starve. They backed Renly when they thought for sure he was the safe bet, and after him, the Lannisters became the safe bet. If they can keep their money and extend their influence without expending much risk, why not do it? They have it set up so they're not the ones left holding the hot potato, which wouldn't be the case if they made a play for the throne and a painted a bulls-eye on themselves.

Yup. Except I think they kind have the bulls-eye on themselves now anyway. It may still be a "Baratheon"-Lannister king, but the court and council is stacked with their people. Anyone who knows how things work knows they're in charge now.

And they won't be able to avoid the "Aegon" question forever. They're going to have to commit to either being pro or con, and with the implied sentiments of their vassals that's going to be like navigating a minefield. I don't think they're above concluding that the Lannisters are dead weight and thus their best bet to continue to have a piece of the crown is to offer it (along with Margaery) to "Aegon" VI without a fight. I'm less sure whether this gambit will actually work.

They are the knights of summer, and winter is coming. Catelyn has to be right about something eventually :) and so I'm worried for the Tyrells. GRRM's let them go relatively unbloodied for a very long time...

[Frances Bean Corbray]

@Merengues

1) So? The only Great House benefitting from magic right now are the Targaryens. No Great House besides the Starks and Targs have used magic, and all of the Houses are mixed anyways.

2) The Redwynes were never on the against them. The Hightowers are pseudo-Great Powers and the Florents originally sided with Renly and have lost their seat since going over to Stannis.

3) The Tyrells aren't dogs. I don't know why you keep saying it.

4) Really? Because last I checked, Mace Tyrell was Hand of the King ruling the Westeros for Tommen.

And he's got the awesome swag chair to prove it! :)

[PLEASE let that chair make it into the show this season...]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The answer is obvious but people are missing it.

The Tyrells don't have authority over their bannermen.

The Reach is the most powerful of all regions and it is ruled by four or five almost-equally powerful houses:

Hightower

Florent

Tyrell

Tarlly

And so on and so on.

The Tyrells have nothing to make them stronger. They're a house which is ruler of the reach in name only.

You're onto something but it's not that obvious, it seems.

The Tyrells are still in power because they're convenient for everybody else to be there. Just like it's convenient for many people to have the Lannisters in charge now. I mean, I'm quite sure people like Olenna is very aware of the incest but would keep it quiet because not knowing is a better option.

Up until now, the Tyrells haven't been bad rulers for the Reach. Yet, so far, the only benefited from the T-Lannister alliance have been the Tyrells and no one else, despite not only the Tyrell men have fought. Many see men like Tarly, Rowan and Redwyne as shunned by the crown and by Mace himself. The Tyrells then aren't as convenient as they were before.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I always assumed from a pure political standpoint the Starks were the least powerful. Their lack of political interest seems to separate them. Now militarily despite their numbers the North seems to be more feared. Maybe the Tyrells lack of action during Robert's Rebellion buried their reputation a bit. Randal Tarley actually beat Robert and it built his reputation greatly. The Tyrells don't have that sort of story to hang their hats on.

[kimim]

I don't think they want the IT, as they know they don't have the authority, but they do want to move into the big leagues. Their role in Ice and Fire has been as kingmakers, first for Renly, then for Tywin and Kevan. The Lannister thing is going down, but they can function the same way for Aegon, as they've been growing strong with as little damage to their people and their armies as possible.

Also, roses wilt in the winter, but the Reach is the breadbasket of Westeros. In a long winter, being able to export food to friends and starve enemies is as important as anything else.

[oopeed]

@Merengues

1) So? The only Great House benefitting from magic right now are the Targaryens. No Great House besides the Starks and Targs have used magic, and all of the Houses are mixed anyways.

2) The Redwynes were never on the against them. The Hightowers are pseudo-Great Powers and the Florents originally sided with Renly and have lost their seat since going over to Stannis.

3) The Tyrells aren't dogs. I don't know why you keep saying it.

4) Really? Because last I checked, Mace Tyrell was Hand of the King ruling the Westeros for Tommen.

1- Maybe only Starks and Targs have been showing their magics, but unlike Tyrells; the Baratheons are kings and always close to Targs, while Tullys, Lannisters, and Greyjoys were kings of old, their lineage is extensive and until the war, their rule was close to supreme... Tyrells are what? Nothing but quitters who happened to be at the right place at the right time.

2- The Tyrells are just paramounts in name. During the Dance and the Blackfyre rebellion, the reach stood asunder while the other great houses kept their people together. Unlike Starks or Lanns who command loyalty or fear in their domains, more than several Reach houses will not attend the summonings of Highgarden.

3- Calling someone a dog isn't bad. They're man's best friend and loyal companions. Although since Tyrells are prone to jump ship when the tide changes, they can only be compared with stray mongrels.

4- And Tyrell is hand of what kingdom? The IB plans to depose Tommen, Stannis controls the wall and likely soon will control the North, Dorne plots rebellion, the Stormland soon will be of fAegon, the Greyjoys own the shield islands and are planning even more, and Littlefinger (a so-called friend) plans to turn the Vale against them too... He's hand because Varys and the Cheesemonger tolerate it because he's a tool. Otherwise he'd be dead like Pycelle and Kevan.

They have come to power only after thousands of years of luck and the change in power between the true players of Westeros. If Robert had been as Stannis, they would probably be powerless by now and pretty much no one would object to the fall of the Tyrells. The only thing one must know about Tyrells is that like weed, they are always creeping in the backyard.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

They're a bit like crows taking pickings from the leavings of the war...maybe that's why the book where they mainly feature is called A Feast For Crows :laugh:

But seriously, you're right. They don't play any major roles, but that's because they're a survivor house. They're smart in the sense that they always seem to be on the winning side and never making too bold or risky moves that could kill them off.

However, the assassination of a particular king was pretty big, especially in terms of impact on the story of the book.

[H.P.]

I'm curious to find out whose bed Margery's going to hop in next.

Will this heffer ever run out of King poles to chase?

Seems to me she never has time to actually jump into a bed with someone. They always die first.

[C.T. Phipps]

You're onto something but it's not that obvious, it seems.

The Tyrells are still in power because they're convenient for everybody else to be there. Just like it's convenient for many people to have the Lannisters in charge now. I mean, I'm quite sure people like Olenna is very aware of the incest but would keep it quiet because not knowing is a better option.

Up until now, the Tyrells haven't been bad rulers for the Reach. Yet, so far, the only benefited from the T-Lannister alliance have been the Tyrells and no one else, despite not only the Tyrell men have fought. Many see men like Tarly, Rowan and Redwyne as shunned by the crown and by Mace himself. The Tyrells then aren't as convenient as they were before.

The whole, "The Tyrells are dogs" things is a bit ridiculous because they have had 300 years of time to rule the Reach but I think the thing is the Tyrells don't have a place of historical legitimacy to solidify their claim.

As you mentioned, they're conveinant rulers but they were conveinant rulers for the Targaryens and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't have military support from their bannermen which is all that loyal. As we saw with House Reynes and the Lannisters, plus the Starks and the Boltons, there are plenty of times when bannermen houses can rival their leadership. With the Tyrells, it seems they've been constantly in that position.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of nobles would be much-much happier with Hightower rulers.

While the Targaryens reigned, the Tyrells position was secure, but under Robert it became far far more tenuous because he wasn't going to forget they were Targaryen lackeys but didn't really punish anyone for past loyalties either. We do see their ambition, however, first with Renly then the Lannisters.

But in a very real way, I get the impression their upjump steward status is more important than it appears because they don't have the loyalty and respect of their bannermen. After all, the Tyrells sided with the Lannisters while the rest of the Reach sided with Stannis (for a time at least).

[Frey Pie]

They couldn't easily declare themselves Kings; I find it difficult to believe that most of the noble Houses of the Reach would support putting a Tyrell on an independent throne of the Reach. The Starks were Kings in the North and the Greyjoys were once Kings of the Iron Isles so they had support, but during the reign of the Gardeners the Tyrells were nothing but Stewards. There was never a period in history that a Tyrell sat upon a throne.

Which is exactly why I said lack of authority in my post...I think the whole kingship is less of a problem (most houses seem to have kings blood) but the fact that Hightower and Redwyne are overpowered is. If Tyrell garnered the full support of these two they could go for a throne imho

[Frey Pie]

But in a very real way, I get the impression their upjump steward status is more important than it appears because they don't have the loyalty and respect of their bannermen. After all, the Tyrells sided with the Lannisters while the rest of the Reach sided with Stannis (for a time at least).

Not true at all iirc. After Renly was assassinated most of the cavalry went with Stannis (mainly stormlanders but a few reach lords yes)

Iirc Tarly, Rowan and Loras ride for the foot and put Stannis's emissaries and any supporters to the sword

[hodorisfaclessman]

The intermarriages of the tyrells and the various powerful houses of the region seem to hint at them consolidating power first.

They seem to now be well interlinked linked to hightowers, fossaways, redwynes etc by marriage.

Overall they seem to fit their motto of 'growing strong' , they have no need to conquer or fight for power.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

@Merengues

1) So? The only Great House benefitting from magic right now are the Targaryens. No Great House besides the Starks and Targs have used magic, and all of the Houses are mixed anyways.

2) The Redwynes were never on the against them. The Hightowers are pseudo-Great Powers and the Florents originally sided with Renly and have lost their seat since going over to Stannis.

3) The Tyrells aren't dogs. I don't know why you keep saying it.

4) Really? Because last I checked, Mace Tyrell was Hand of the King ruling the Westeros for Tommen.

Baratheons are using magic, Melisandre on Stannis' side? And the Durrandon-Baratheons have been using it throughout, its in the walls of their stronghold. That, and I still think they are unconsciously causing storms given the placement of them in the history of the story (the Last Storm, the Storm during the Rebellion Dany was born in, the Storm Stannis is currently in)

I doubt the Tyrells will be in power at the end. Symbolically they are going to be battered by Winter, how does your garden grow in snow?7

The whole, "The Tyrells are dogs" things is a bit ridiculous because they have had 300 years of time to rule the Reach but I think the thing is the Tyrells don't have a place of historical legitimacy to solidify their claim.

As you mentioned, they're conveinant rulers but they were conveinant rulers for the Targaryens and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't have military support from their bannermen which is all that loyal. As we saw with House Reynes and the Lannisters, plus the Starks and the Boltons, there are plenty of times when bannermen houses can rival their leadership. With the Tyrells, it seems they've been constantly in that position.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of nobles would be much-much happier with Hightower rulers.

While the Targaryens reigned, the Tyrells position was secure, but under Robert it became far far more tenuous because he wasn't going to forget they were Targaryen lackeys but didn't really punish anyone for past loyalties either. We do see their ambition, however, first with Renly then the Lannisters.

But in a very real way, I get the impression their upjump steward status is more important than it appears because they don't have the loyalty and respect of their bannermen. After all, the Tyrells sided with the Lannisters while the rest of the Reach sided with Stannis (for a time at least).

The British Throne went to the Hanoverians about 300 years ago because they were the closest protestants in a family of Catholics (they skipped 50 heirs). They married again and again into Germany and are still called German to this day. 300 years is not a very long time in history. Not in our civilization that goes back 3000 and especially not in theirs that goes back double that it seems

[TheSovereignGrave]

Along with the Arryns, they are the only great house that can't track their origin to valyrian or first men forefathers, so no magic to any of them. The only reason they came to power was because Mern chose to go and die in the field of fire and they happened to be the closest people to Highgarden since they took care of it for their masters, but more than once it has been proven that they are not the overlord of the reach since Hightowers, Redwynes and Florents have been in opposite sides of wars.

Untrue; House Martell is descended from an Andal warlord. And really, the First Men and Andals have interbred to the point of irrelevancy. Pretty much everyone in Westeros has both Andal and First Men blood in them (possibly excluding Wildlings).

[TheDrunkenDornishman]

Their sigil explains it all to me. A rose is not a lion, wolf, or dragon, rushing headlong into every fight, teeth bared and claws ready. Instead, a rose merely waits, growing and spreading, until it's roots and vines overwhelm their competition.

You say they are too passive. Yet a rose is no threat to those who leave it well alone. A rose's thorns only hurt those who disturb it

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Their sigil explains it all to me. A rose is not a lion, wolf, or dragon, rushing headlong into every fight, teeth bared and claws ready. Instead, a rose merely waits, growing and spreading, until it's roots and vines overwhelm their competition.

You say they are too passive. Yet a rose is no threat to those who leave it well alone. A rose's thorns only hurt those who disturb it

An animal can rip a rose bush up from the root and sustain only the lightest of cuts.