Do you think the Unsullied can withstand a heavy horse charge?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

The fuck you on about?

1. The Saxons at Hastings were most definitely not pikemen - they fought in a shieldwall formation.

2. The Norman charge failed time and time again.

3. The was the Norman cavalry routing and being chased out of formation by the saxons that allowed the Norman's to inflict a lot of damage.

4. The Saxon shieldwall endured several charges, infantry attacks, massed arrow and crossbow fire one real rout leading them out of formation allowing them to be cut down and a couple more faked retreats before it finally broke.

Crossbows at Hastings?

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

No. They speak Ghiscari, Valyrian is just a second language for them. Probably a bit pidginized in the mean time, but the Good Masters would have the proper education to speak the old version as well.

These old scrolls are basically the only source of information about military tactics the Good Masters had access to. They had no wars for these 5,000 years. They don't hire mercenaries until very recently. And they most certainly won't rate military treatises from Westeros above their own ancient history. The national pride stuff, you're quite correct there.

Well, ghiscari weren't locked away in a closet for 5,000 years, they were a part of a major militaristic empire, they had interraction with people from a lot of different places and still do. They also keep an eye on their unsullied performance.

I think a more realistic picture would be that Good Masters just developed these military units using all they knew. Rather than Good Masters turned into super nerds, went to a library, read 5,000 year old texts that may or may not exist and they may or may not understand, and built a military unit precisely as described.

Sure, they copied some legendary features like lock step or 3 spear thing, although who knows how precisely.

Ultimately, I don't know. But I think you picked the most cartoonish of possible interpretations.

As to language, Good Masters speak to each other in Valyrian, so I would think that's their first / main language. But maybe I missed or forgot something. Is it mentioned in the books that they speak Ghiscari?

[aryagonnakill#2]

It is my feeling that GRRM would not have 2 experienced knights like Jorah and Ser Barristan constantly talking about how awesome the unsullied were if they were in fact not awesome. Whether people think its realistic or not is another matter, but it sure seems like GRRM intends them to be the best infantry.

I would also point out that there is some ambiguity in 3 spears, throwing spear, 1 on 1 fighting spear, what's left? A pike seems reasonable.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, ghiscari weren't locked away in a closet for 5,000 years, they were a part of a major militaristic empire, they had interraction with people from a lot of different places and still do. They also keep an eye on their unsullied performance.

...a militaristic empire based on dragons. The only interaction with guys from ar military background they hav are the Dothraki. There are no hints that the Unsullied actually performed in real military campaigns at all (Qhohor excluded), being used for personal safety and palace coups instead.

I think a more realistic picture would be that Good Masters just developed these military units using all they knew. Rather than Good Masters turned into super nerds, went to a library, read 5,000 year old texts that may or may not exist and they may or may not understand, and built a military unit precisely as described.

And from where should they have known that? An exchange program with Westeros? Or maybe the young Ghiscari went on field trips to the Disputed Territories which we never heard of?

Sure, they copied some legendary features like lock step or 3 spear thing, although who knows how precisely.

Ultimately, I don't know. But I think you picked the most cartoonish of possible interpretations.

As to language, Good Masters speak to each other in Valyrian, so I would think that's their first / main language. But maybe I missed or forgot something. Is it mentioned in the books that they speak Ghiscari?

"Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?" - Dance, the frog scene. Ghiscari is the language at Dany's court in Meereen. Don't have a quote for Astapor at hand, but that should suffice.

[Talleyrand]

Crossbows at Hastings?

According to William of Poitiers, so yes

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

A shield/spear wall works great against a horse charge, heavy or not. The unsullied proved this at the Battle of Qohor.

Barding makes a lot of difference, how much westerosi horses have is certainly debatable, I tend to believe that westeros has fairly basic (but still effective) horse armour, whereas BBE and a few others argue for late medieval/renaissance plate armour for horses.

Regardless a lightly armoured/unarmoured horse that charges any infantry with any weapon will get impaled by the person in the front rank. He might crush the guy who impales him, and the guy behind him, but the fact is he is dead. It's worse for the next rank of horses because they are slowed by traveling over the bodies of the dead horses/riders/infantrymen.

Lightly armoured spearmen will get demolished by mid-late medieval heavy cavalry, if the knights/men-at-arms can persuade their horses to charge them.

[mormont]

That thread should be mandatory reading for this site. I've seen so many people, including my self, get served with it.

With respect, there's exactly one person whose word on this topic would cause anyone to 'get served', and his initials are G, R, R, and M.

The answer to whether the Unsullied could stand a heavy horse charge is 'they can if GRRM says so' (or, perhaps, 'they can't if GRRM says they can't'.) Anything else is speculation. Some of those speculations are informed by stuff we've read in the books, or stuff we've read about real-world situations we think are comparable, but they're still just our opinions. Any of us might prove to be wrong, no matter how well-informed we think we are. It's good to remember that.

My own speculation is that the Unsullied would likely be well trained enough to avoid a situation where they have to face such a charge: as I understand it, heavy horse charges were relatively rare in medieval battles because suitable terrain for one was not always available (and commanders usually weren't rash enough to give battle on terrain like that). But if they had to, their discipline would probably hold. The one thing we're told over and over about them is that discipline, after all. So they'd stand, and probably suffer heavy losses, but they'd have a chance, at least, of repelling the charge.

[King of the Rock]

Well, a shield wall formation with spears seems to do well vs. Robb's heavy horse. So if it's so utterly ineffective vs. peak European knights, maybe Westerosi mounted knights just aren't as good as peak European knights.

As to unsullied, I think some things don't add up with them. They are supposed to be the main force of Qohor, Qohori have little else besides unsullied. Qohor is a major center of armor production, their armor is even better than the best of Westeros. You don't develop the best armor unless your own army uses armor, and unless your opponents are more than just dothraki hordes, i.e. your opponents have pretty effective weapons that make you to keep pushing your armor towards perfection.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that unsullied do adjust and use heavy armor and fight more advanced enemies than dothraki, at least in Qohor. Otherwise Qohor armor supremacy is a major oversight by GRRM. It would be like eskimos developing the best race cars.

Maybe, but they could have learned pike warfare in Qohor. If necessary, then I'm sure the people who buy the Unsullied train them to use the equipment that's relative to their warfare. If they're proficient in the use of long spears, then they should catch on easily to pikes. From my analysis, the Unsullied were mainly meant to be used as a city watch. Loyal and incorruptible.

[TallTyrion]

With respect, there's exactly one person whose word on this topic would cause anyone to 'get served', and his initials are G, R, R, and M.

The answer to whether the Unsullied could stand a heavy horse charge is 'they can if GRRM says so' (or, perhaps, 'they can't if GRRM says they can't'.) Anything else is speculation. Some of those speculations are informed by stuff we've read in the books, or stuff we've read about real-world situations we think are comparable, but they're still just our opinions. Any of us might prove to be wrong, no matter how well-informed we think we are. It's good to remember that.

My own speculation is that the Unsullied would likely be well trained enough to avoid a situation where they have to face such a charge: as I understand it, heavy horse charges were relatively rare in medieval battles because suitable terrain for one was not always available (and commanders usually weren't rash enough to give battle on terrain like that). But if they had to, their discipline would probably hold. The one thing we're told over and over about them is that discipline, after all. So they'd stand, and probably suffer heavy losses, but they'd have a chance, at least, of repelling the charge.

That comment was in reference only to the "Westerosi armies consist of untrained peasants" argument.

As for the effectiveness of the unsullied, as you say they will be as effective as GRRM wants them to be.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

With respect, there's exactly one person whose word on this topic would cause anyone to 'get served', and his initials are G, R, R, and M.

The answer to whether the Unsullied could stand a heavy horse charge is 'they can if GRRM says so' (or, perhaps, 'they can't if GRRM says they can't'.) Anything else is speculation. Some of those speculations are informed by stuff we've read in the books, or stuff we've read about real-world situations we think are comparable, but they're still just our opinions. Any of us might prove to be wrong, no matter how well-informed we think we are. It's good to remember that.

My own speculation is that the Unsullied would likely be well trained enough to avoid a situation where they have to face such a charge: as I understand it, heavy horse charges were relatively rare in medieval battles because suitable terrain for one was not always available (and commanders usually weren't rash enough to give battle on terrain like that). But if they had to, their discipline would probably hold. The one thing we're told over and over about them is that discipline, after all. So they'd stand, and probably suffer heavy losses, but they'd have a chance, at least, of repelling the charge.

That would only be true in the sense that pitched battles are rather rare, most battles that occurred where one or both sides had cavalry would have a cavalry charge. If the terrain is not the best then they won't be able to get to 40 kph (25 mph) which is roughly their maximum speed, but if their formation is already collapsing then that doesn't really matter. The main advantages to getting to that speed would be that you are a more effective kamikaze rider, and possibly that your horse doesn't have the option to shy away/change direction as it's moving too fast.

So unless the terrain was completely unnavigable for a man on horseback cavalry charges would take place if the side that had the best opportunity for a cavalry charge has cavalry.

[Musashisamurai]

@Bright Blue Eyes,

If you read the post above mine which I was commenting on, the writer specifically said "Any peasant can stand in a block." The Unsullied, whether its a drafted peasant or a hardened warrior, have more discipline. Period. These guys have no fear and feel no pain (which may not necessarily be a good thing). If you tell them to get into a pike square and not to break for anything, you can be guaranteed that the Unsullied will hold that formation or die trying.

That the Good Masters don't train the Unsullied to use a longer spear or pike, or to fight heavy cavalry when we know that there are knights fighting in both Essos and Westeros (sellswords. The Golden Company fights a lot like Westerosi, and I believe they specifically mention "knights" Of course they are the best, or at least "high-end,"). That they couldn't learn to use one is even more unbelievable. As for the formation, I would find it very similar to the phalanx, which they've mastered, and which the pike square was based on.

The only thing the Unsullied lose to is brute force and strength, but given numbers and a solid formation, easily makes up for it.

Also, you ask what other military campaigns the Unsullied were used for? I ask you this-if the Unsullied were only ever used as city guards or watchmen, why did Qohor specifically send men to get Unsullied as reinforcements?

[Black Crow]

Not really what I'm talking about, you've just pointed to another case where cavalry demolishes disorganised retreating infantry. I was asking for instances where cavalry have charged into disciplined infantry formations. I agree with BBE in that it would be costly but ultimately successful if it did happen, but I'm not convinced people could actually get their horses to behave so suicidally, from what I've read it is relatively rare for horses to actually charge into pikes (or even a shield wall), with horses generally rearing up changing direction.

An example of this is Falkirk the Scottish pikes held for quite a while, but the English casualties don't suggest that they were generally charging into the enemy, merely getting close and being forced to turn around when the enemy held firm.

Not many armoured knights were going down but Edward's exchequer was a bit distressed by the amount of compensation which had to be paid out for heavy war horses killed by the Scottish spears.

[Black Crow]

Fallacious appeal to authority. I used sources, you say to just trust you. And I have a doctorate as well. ;)

Wikipedia in this case has let you down very badly. You try handling a 16 foot long pole one-handed while sitting on a horse. In the 16th and early 17th centuries pikes were usually 16 feet long, carried by infantrymen and very definitely required both hands to handle them.

[Black Crow]

I've never been convinced the evidence in the books is decisive for one type of soldier over another. People are trying, IMO, to impose a consistency which probably isn't there.

Indeed. This sort of question tends to ignore the environmental factor, ie; troop types evolve to best suit the environment in which they normally operate. Its a bit of the old scissors, paper, stone game. If for the sake of argument you were to set those ferocious killer pygmies known as the children of the forest against King Stannis' armoured knights what would happen? Out on the bright meadows the children would be ridden down with contemptuous ease. Draw the knights into the deep woods and its a different matter entirely as somebody may have found to their cost in what's now known as the Fist of the First Men

[Black Crow]

According to William of Poitiers, so yes

And crossbowmen are depicted in the Bayeux tapestry

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Interesting (re: last part). I don't know what to think of it. This is what the world book says: "Thus the Ghiscari became but another part of the new Valyrian empire, and in time they forgot the tongue that Grazdan spoke, learning instead High Valyrian." It's from the "Rise of Valyria" section. And Dany always understands Astapori, even when they speak with each other, despite her being new to the town, so that had to be Valyrian.

One explanation could be that the maester (who supposedly wrote the World book) is mistaken. Another explanation could be that Dany (the POV character in your quote) starts thinking of Meereen Valyrian dialect as Ghiscari, since that dialect is very different from Dany's Valyrian. It would be quite symbolic. GRRM likes to use small details to strengthen his point, and in this case it would be one of many signs that Dany is feeling alien in Meereen.

Re: other the bolded parts:

Valyria was far more than just dragons, they had massive armies.

Astapor sells slave warriors, so of course they will have interractions with people of military background. Not just suppliers (mainly dothraki and various corsairs) but also at least some of the buyers. Occasionally slaves themselves too.

I don't know about unsullied and military campaigns. They likely take parts in some battles, because if Good Masters keep recommending each buyer to blood unsullied ASAP in real combat, chances are that at least some of the buyers heed the advice. But ultimately it's just not mentioned one way or another.

I don't really understand the middle part.

[Black Crow]

I think the language business is intended to be similar to the way that French was frequently the language of court in many European countries in the 18th century and sometimes afterwards, and likewise earlier in the days of the Roman Empire Latin was the official language and fluency in it paraded by the local aristocracy. In both cases, obviously, not only did the ordinary people speak the local tongue, albeit no doubt with added loan words and phrases, but the aristos also spoke it if only to tell the cook to serve the eggs sunny side up.

Using the Ghiscari tongue at Dany's court is I think a means to present her regime as a friendly change of management rather than a conquest.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

According to William of Poitiers, so yes

Seems I was wrong.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@Bright Blue Eyes,

If you read the post above mine which I was commenting on, the writer specifically said "Any peasant can stand in a block." The Unsullied, whether its a drafted peasant or a hardened warrior, have more discipline. Period. These guys have no fear and feel no pain (which may not necessarily be a good thing). If you tell them to get into a pike square and not to break for anything, you can be guaranteed that the Unsullied will hold that formation or die trying.

That the Good Masters don't train the Unsullied to use a longer spear or pike, or to fight heavy cavalry when we know that there are knights fighting in both Essos and Westeros (sellswords. The Golden Company fights a lot like Westerosi, and I believe they specifically mention "knights" Of course they are the best, or at least "high-end,"). That they couldn't learn to use one is even more unbelievable. As for the formation, I would find it very similar to the phalanx, which they've mastered, and which the pike square was based on.

The only thing the Unsullied lose to is brute force and strength, but given numbers and a solid formation, easily makes up for it.

Also, you ask what other military campaigns the Unsullied were used for? I ask you this-if the Unsullied were only ever used as city guards or watchmen, why did Qohor specifically send men to get Unsullied as reinforcements?

Being able to fight in a pike square requires drill. A vastly different drill than for a phalanx. Drill requires NCOs and officers familiar with the stuff to organize it. The Unsullied lack them. Developing them from the ground up is a task for generations.

Quohor got Unsullied only as an afterthought, relying mostly on mercenaries.

[Musashisamurai]

Bright Blue Eyes,

Pike squares were created by Europeans who read about ancient phalanxes and adapted them to their own armies. While we don't know if the Unsullied train and practice this formation, we know they train and practice similar ones and do those just fine (actually better than fine, the best in the world at that). They already got fighting/moving/blocking in unison down. Also, pike squares wouldn't require NCOs (a new term.), but the Unsullied do have officers (check the wiki, which references an SSM). Although, using your argument, why would the Unsullied need officers/sergeants though to do a formation they can already do without (although the Unsullied do have officers).

Qohor already had mercenaries. It seems like once they needed reinforcements, they sent a guy directly to Slavers bay to get Unsullied and return with some. I highly doubt that the leaders of Qohor would tell a man to go buy some expensive cops when the Dohthraki are about to attack, rather than hire more mercs for less. Therefore, the Unsullied must have already had a proven battle record for the Qohor to want to hire them.