East vs West: why is Essos is more advanced than Westeros?

[GoT_Academy]

Which city is Qarth inspired by? And the Free Cities? We can learn a lot by looking at real history

Check out our first video in a new YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0khY2BuFA8

[Anythingatall]

Watching it now. Loving the bagpipes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Interesting stuff. I agree on most parts.

Though I think you misplace the start of the decline of the East. The Doom of Valyria and the Century of Blood is the start and it has continued to get worse for 300 years. The Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay especially does in no way fit the "stable, densely settled, economically superior" attributes you claim.

They did when Valyria still ruled, but that's 400 years in the past.

[Anythingatall]

Interesting stuff. I agree on most parts.

Though I think you misplace the start of the decline of the East. The Doom of Valyria and the Century of Blood is the start and it has continued to get worse for 300 years. The Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay especially does in no way fit the "stable, densely settled, economically superior" attributes you claim.

They did when Valyria still ruled, but that's 400 years in the past.

They are talking further east than that though? Yi Ti and the fabled lands. In one of the last two books I think there is mention of a plague in Yi Ti which fits with the decline.

[GoT_Academy]

They are talking further east than that though? Yi Ti and the fabled lands. In one of the last two books I think there is mention of a plague in Yi Ti which fits with the decline.

We have a different chapter regarding Valyria and how it relates to Ancient Rome and how the fall of Valyria correlates with the beginning of the Middle Ages. We're editing the video and will post it soon.

Thanks for the feedback!

[GoT_Academy]

Watching it now. Loving the bagpipes.

Haha! We have a different cover for every episode, there are some very very good ones out there.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They are talking further east than that though? Yi Ti and the fabled lands. In one of the last two books I think there is mention of a plague in Yi Ti which fits with the decline.

The problem with that is that we know next to nothing about Yi Ti - except that there are currently already three emperors and even the most powerful of them has no power outside his own capital. With that information probably being a couple years old.

[Maid So Fair]

It was an interesting video, but I would have perhaps saved the bagpipes for the North/Wildlings.

I agree that Essos has been declining for a long time. Westeros also seems more advanced in some ways.

[GoT_Academy]

Bright Blue Eyes,

Our next video will be on Valyria and how the Doom is the Fall of the Roman Empire and also a sign of Eastern decline. So stay tuned...

To your point. I think GRRM is mixing different real-history events and periods in his story. A decline of (any) civilization is a general historical trend that repeats itself every few centuries, so the Bloody Century and the Doom could be both the staring point of eastern decline AND the starting point for Western Middle Ages as well (and Eastern ascension).

When I read the books, I pictured Slaver's Bay as much more stable and economically superior than Westeros. Maybe I'm not that accurate on that point, but I do think you can say that the slavers elite in the big cities of Slaver's Bay are richer, less threatened politically and more "advanced" than the landed elite of Westeros (well, until Danny does her stuff).

To the Dothraki Sea point. I interpreted it as Asia's vast, almost empty, Steppes. From the great kingdoms of the east to the small kingdoms of today Balkan states, there was (and still is) vast empty planes with horseback riding cultures, sometimes warrior horseback riding cultures, roaming there (Mongols, Huns, Parthians etc.). These cultures co-existed alongside (and faraway) densely urban centers like Constantinople and the big cities of China. The relationship between these cultures and the urban centers near them was very similar to the relationship between the Dothraki's khalasars and the cities of the east in the story (trade, pillage, slave trade etc.).

Itamar

[Maid So Fair]

When I read the books, I pictured Slaver's Bay as much more stable and economically superior than Westeros. Maybe I'm not that accurate on that point, but I do think you can say that the slavers elite in the big cities of Slaver's Bay are richer, less threatened politically and more "advanced" than the landed elite of Westeros (well, until Danny does her stuff).

They don't seem to produce anything - their economy is entirely dependant on slave trade (well, I suppose they train slaves but that's not quite the same). Also, their civilisation seems stuck in the past, with people still going on about Old Ghis thousands of years later rather than coming up with any innovations or looking to the future. They don't even have proper defences or a warrior class. And that's not going into the cultural stuff. The elite might be richer, and the whole system seems politically stable (unless someone invades), but how are they more 'advanced'?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Slavers Bay produces nothing. They train slaves, that's it. Slaves they get cheaply from the Dothraki. Culture and technology is still mostly Ghiscari.

The Dothraki Sea formerly featured the Kingdom of Sarnor and a lot of Valyrian colonies wiped out by the Dothraki, living economies and culture replaced by virtual emptyness, depopulated, the infrastructure destroyed, basically Mad Max with Dothraki instead of biker gangs..

[GoT_Academy]

They don't seem to produce anything - their economy is entirely dependant on slave trade (well, I suppose they train slaves but that's not quite the same). Also, their civilisation seems stuck in the past, with people still going on about Old Ghis thousands of years later rather than coming up with any innovations or looking to the future. They don't even have proper defences or a warrior class. And that's not going into the cultural stuff. The elite might be richer, and the whole system seems politically stable (unless someone invades), but how are they more 'advanced'?

They have an industry of slaves - they produce the best slaves in the world and they make a lot of money out of that - slave armies, slave bureaucrats, slave entertainers, etc.

But again, GRRM is mixing stuff. Maybe the more accurate historical analogy for Slaver's Bay society is the antebellum Old South in American history and not Middle Ages eastern cities. But, as I see it, in the story, Slaver's Bay is part of the eastern decline trend.

Thank you for your enlightening comment.

[kimim]

They have an industry of slaves - they produce the best slaves in the world and they make a lot of money out of that - slave armies, slave bureaucrats, slave entertainers, etc.

But again, GRRM is mixing stuff. Maybe the more accurate historical analogy for Slaver's Bay society is the antebellum Old South in American history and not Middle Ages eastern cities. But, as I see it, in the story, Slaver's Bay is part of the eastern decline trend.

Thank you for your enlightening comment.

Antebellum south doesn't work for SB, as they're not part of a nation or a culture which sees slavery as an abomination. They're on their own out there, doing nothing but producing slaves. Dany has to plant olive trees, which is bizarre. Their wine stinks.

As far as being advanced: I'm failing to find evidence for this? YiTi might be, but we know nothing about it. Volantis has a navy which might be on par with Westerosi navies, but the armies we see elsewhere on Essos are inferior to the ones in Westeros. Their roads suck as badly as Westerosi roads. No evidence of any kind of technological advance, not even in Qarth. In the 15th century, if you compared Western Europe with, say, the growing Ottoman Empire, you would have seen parity, in armies, in basic technology. There's nothing like that in Essos. The one place that seems to have parity--Braavos--seems like a broken bit of Westeros which landed on Essos.

Qarth, btw, is a very imperfect analogy to Constantinople. Constantinople was the home of the Byzantine Emperor, then the Ottoman sultan. Qarth is not. It has no central religious establishment, the way Byzantine Constantinople did. Its location is hardly the same as Constantinople's: Constantinople was smack in the middle of things, uniting two cultures. Qarth? It has a port, but it's hardly a union of cultures. While Dany is heading to it on land, she is, seemingly, alone. Can you imagine the land routes to Constantinople empty? Like Constantinople, Qarth has walls, and a history and is actively involved in trade, or so we're told. In fact, we see none of that. Maybe it's Dany's pov, but the Qarth in Dany's pov is a city with a reputation, but no more than that.

What's weird about this situation is that Westeros is in the 15th century, while Essos, mosly, is laboring in 6th century BCE.

[GoT_Academy]

Antebellum south doesn't work for SB, as they're not part of a nation or a culture which sees slavery as an abomination. They're on their own out there, doing nothing but producing slaves. Dany has to plant olive trees, which is bizarre. Their wine stinks.

Hey, the way I read the books:

1. Qarth, Braavos, Mereen, Pentos are all richer than King's Landing, Winterfell and the like. Even the rich Westerosi houses lack for cash (and live on Braavosi loans) while in Pentos and Slavers Bay they overflow with it.

2. Qarth has a great fleet. The Free Cities employ the strongest and most expensive companies that no one in Westeros can afford

3. People live in cities with a certain infrastructure. Most people in Westeros are village folk

4. There were several civil wars in the past 100 years in Westeros while in Essos there is much less internal strife (pre-Dany)

5. There is no merchant class to speak of in Westeros. Back east they yield much influence

6. The East has Valyrian roads

7. The Westerosi elite look to the East with a sort of awe. Back East they look to Westeros as barbarians.

It goes on but you get the point

Gil

[ADB]

As far as being advanced: I'm failing to find evidence for this?

I agree. I think that Essos isn't really "more advanced" so much as it's simply richer than Westeros. Largely on the back, no pun intended, of slave labor. So you see a lot more ostentatious displays of wealth.

[Maid So Fair]

I wouldn't say there's less internal strife in Essos - Tyrosh, Myr and Lys seem to be constantly at war and the khalasars plague the interior as well.

[GoT_Academy]

I wouldn't say there's less internal strife in Essos - Tyrosh, Myr and Lys seem to be constantly at war and the khalasars plague the interior as well.

Those three are the exception to the rule. It Westeros you got everybody killing everybody for the 2nd time in 15 years, and a bunch of revolts in the past 100 years.

[GoT_Academy]

I agree. I think that Essos isn't really "more advanced" so much as it's simply richer than Westeros. Largely on the back, no pun intended, of slave labor. So you see a lot more ostentatious displays of wealth.

Hey. That was the point we made in this video's prediction regarding Essos and Westeros. But the reason for them being wealthier doesn't change the fact that they are wealthier. We think Essos will crumble in the two remaining books.

[pettes]

Pentos is also warring With lys and myr if i remember correctly

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I don't think that Essos is more advanced than Westeros.