Feminism - continued

[TerraPrime]

Every god damn fucking week, the feminism thread is derailed and dragged back to the mud by people equipped with no more than 5th grade level reasoning skills and a dick, offering craptastic argument that insult both women, men, and the human intellect. So, this thread is the place to get away from that metaphorical shit.

In this thread, the validity of feminism is not a subject for discussion - accept it, or don't post here.

The topics suitable for this thread include, but are not limited to:

- as cross-cultural feminism

- comparisons and developments in a various branches of feminism

- social, cultural, and political phenomena that exemplify/illustrate feminism positively or negatively

- the role of feminism in different human endeavors (job, religions, sports, dating, entertainment, etc.)

Criticism of the existence and justification of feminism can still take place elsewhere on the board - go knock yourselves out over there.

This thread is not meant for the debate on the validity of feminism. It is intended for the exploration of feminist ideas and implications in politics, personal lives, and entertainment. It will be heavily moderated and contents deemed inappropriate for the scope of this thread will be deleted.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

The father's right issue of paternity testing needs to be brought back to feminism if it is to stay in this thread. Otherwise, please start a new thread.

[/mod hat]

[Lily Valley]

On fighting sexism and actually parenting:

SJW,

I have raised a boy within US culture and trying to battle sexism is like playing whack-a-mole. My son is now 18 and I can tell you I have done a piss-poor job at trying to root out sexism when it rears it's head. There are a couple of things I have noticed about this new generation that seem to me like small victories.

The most noticeable is that my son's girlfriends are treated with respect and they are listened to even on new arrival within his predominately male immediate circle. This is a big change from the way I remember "the new girl" being treated when I was young. My son is notorious for his short term flings, these young women are treated as individuals with their own personality to offer rather than as his attache of the week. Many long term friendships have formed within the group as a result of the introductions. The old "Bros Before Hoes" thing seems to be dying, at least in my house.

My son recognizes sexist tropes every once in a while. We had a great discussion about one of Octavia Butler's books that he is currently reading. I pointed out that the main character was an immature, rock kicking "Luke Skywalker" type. My son said, "She doesn't think much of men, does she?" He's right. She doesn't. The fact that he recognized this and that we could talk about things like the idea of women as chattel, marriage as ownership and how slavery themes coincide with sexism in the book felt like a huge victory to me.

My son understands why using the word wh+++ is just wrong. This doesn't mean he doesn't use it, but it does mean he knows that it someone is going to punch him square in the mouth when he says it and that he'll deserve it. I am not a proponent of corporal punishment to correct asshole-ism, but some of the young women he hangs out with are high level practitioners.

My son has a friend who is openly trans. The kids all played music together growing up. The young lady disappeared from the kid's circle for about a year and returned with very little drama. Most of the gossip centers around how pretty she is and how much more outgoing she has become. There has been a bit of twaddle about pronoun usage, but that has only come up when she isn't physically present. I have chalked that up to rewiring 5 years worth of memories. The commentary on her appearance is flagrantly sexist, otherwise she treated as she always has been.

I'll be very curious to hear from anyone else actively trying to talk to kids about sexism within parenting, it's really hard. I notice the bad more often than the good. The post about Miley Cyrus made me sit down and think about what was better than when I was growing up. Sadly, this post wound up pretty short.

[MisterOJ]

I'll be very curious to hear from anyone else actively trying to talk to kids about sexism within parenting, it's really hard.

Probably not what you're referring to, but I had a hard time in the fall with my oldest daughter. She's in fifth grade and this is the first year that she's been able to try out for the middle school soccer team. (She's pretty athletic and soccer is her first love). Here's the thing though, it's a very small school in a fairly rural county. So, there is no girls soccer team. Or boys soccer team, for that matter. It's "co-ed," which basically just means that it's a boys team that the girls can play on if they want to, but very few choose to do so.

So, anyway, she made the team. And even started in every single game. Despite routinely playing against boys who were three years her senior. But... this is the first time she has ever really noticed how boys are just physically better when it comes to athletics. And I struggled with how to talk to her about that at times. She knows she's one of the most athletic girls in her school, but she is just now realizing that she will not be able to hang with the boys as their bodies start to mature. I told her that she could be just as good or better than the older boys one day, but the look she would give me told me that she doubted that was true. And that has to be disheartening.

[deleted01]

Not a parent, but my brother is 8 years younger than me, and I definitely see sexism rear its ugly head amongst his generation. The music he listens to is full of disgusting lyrics, and I always tell him how inappropriate they are when I hear him repeating them. I don't believe he thinks women are worth less than men. He doesn't have a male role model, and all of the women in his life are somewhat successful (working, in education, independent), but he doesn't actively think about sexism or his role within it.

My sister is 17, and generally ignorant of both sexism and feminism. If someone told her she couldn't do something because she's female, she'd take offence to them saying she couldn't do it, not at the reason why. One day, she and I walked into town together, and were whistled at by some builders. I gave them what for, which she found hilarious and embarassing in equal measures.

Slut-shaming is rife in this household, to my continued dismay, though it's definitely not limited to women. And gender roles are adhered to to a point - the words "man up" and "you're meant to be the man of the house" are frequently used to get my brother to toe the line. I keep reminding him that I want him to get rid of a spider in my room, not because I'm a woman, but because they're gross.

Sometimes I feel a lot older than my siblings than I actually am. I rarely noticed sexism (outside of my home) when I was growing up, and I never felt like I couldn't do something/had to do something because of my gender. That's happened a lot more since I became an adult - that, or I just notice it more now.

[Lily Valley]

Mr. OJ,

Not having a daughter, that's something that has never occurred to me. The gap between me and "athletic people" has always been so large that any additional gender gap was indistinguishable. I went out for wrestling in High School because I was little and very limber, it was the only sport I could think of where this might be an advantage. There was only one team. The boys team. There were other girls within our system, but nobody to practice with in our school. Coach told me I could join the team if I cut my hair to conform with the boys crew cuts. Needless to say I was discouraged, I was 14 and just as vain as I am at 40. I seriously doubt that this policy would be allowed to stand today, so that's another small victory.

I have no doubt in hindsight I would have been at a disadvantage against boys in my weight class. I have no clue how to encourage an athletic daughter on that front.

[MisterOJ]

In some ways, it's been a good thing.

She's starting up her spring club season now. She plays on a pretty good all girls club team and she has this mentality now where she's said on more than one occasion, "playing against girls my own age is easy after playing against boys that were older than me." And I guess that's good, but part of me finds it troubling also.

[Kalbear]

I'll be very curious to hear from anyone else actively trying to talk to kids about sexism within parenting, it's really hard.

It really is.

My 5 year old already recognizes certain toys as 'for girls' and therefore bad. It's tough even with simple things - things like making sure they understand that mom is home and dad is at work doesn't mean all dads work and all moms stay at home. It's also really, really scary how profoundly sexist most typical media is. From commercials to toys to movies to almost everything. Harry Potter is currently the topic we're talking about a lot, and there's a lot of emphasis on Hermione being awesome in spite of what the book actually said about her.

[brook]

My kids were absolutely shocked at finding out that once upon a time girls were not allowed to do all the same jobs men were. They thought this was incredibly silly. So on that score I guess there is progress. I feel kind of lucky that they were old enough to be aware that Australia's last prime minister was a woman and not old enough to be aware of all the awful sexist backlash that followed. So in their minds it seems to be an attitude of 'well of course girls can do that, why wouldn't they?' rather than there being anything special about it.

On the more mundane and pervasive gender roles, on using 'like a girl' as an insult and stuff like that I challenge it wherever it pops up (which is all the time) and make no headway whatsoever. Society is powerful and all I can really do is keep making them question it so hopefully maybe something creeps in.

I fucked up when choosing their father, they certainly don't really have any sort of role model of a man being an active and involved parent so I really don't even know *what* to do about that one.

ETA this is a small thing but something I do try is to mix up the books I read them so they are getting a good balance of male and female protagonists rather than only ever reading about boys.

[Weeping Sore]

My grandmother was an olympic swimmer (Paris, 1924) at a time when women in the U.S. were not allowed in public pools or athletic clubs. She learned to swim and practiced in the Milwaukee river. Even though she died before I was born, this was always inspiring to me as a lesson to not accept the limitations of the world around us.

[Lily Valley]

brook, my son asked me if boys could be doctors when he was about 6. He had a female pediatrician with an all female staff. All of the kids were brought in by their mums. He had never, ever seen a man in a medical setting, so the question made sense. I still nearly crashed the car laughing and told him to ask his doctor when we got to the appointment.

The liberty of New Orleans culture and the predominance of working single mothers around here has provided a very good example for the kids. The prevalence of some of the worst of the machismo of Southern culture has been maddening to combat. In particular the acceptance of male violence as just "acting out" has had some horrific consequences. I went to a parent - teacher conference regarding a schoolground fight when my son was in 6th grade. The sisters were appalled by the kids behavior, the other parents afterwards grumbled about "over-reaction", "fussy nuns" and "boys just fight". The young ladies who were much more frequently pulled apart were treated to serious consequences by their parents. Reading any headline of the New Orleans paper is a testament to how badly that is attitude is working out..

WS, so awesome.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

It is hard raising kids, especially boys to not be anti-feminist. I think I did a better job with my older son, but then I raised him mostly on my own. My younger son, though, has had way too much influence from his dad. I am always having to tell him that any thing that can apply to girls can apply to boys (mostly it is the gender roles stuff, drives me nuts!)

[brook]

Those on my facebook will have already seen this but I'm really mad. This was the obituary that The Australian decided to run for Colleen McCullough

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10929987_10152652649086918_656088922831205503_n.jpg?oh=46e130057c7f2a9318d3f59f048988b0&oe=55612EA7

It makes me angry but also depressed. How accomplished does a woman have to be, and how long does she have to live before her appearance and/or ability to attract a man is not considered the most noteworthy thing about her?

[Summah]

brook, that's really gross.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Read the last pages of the previous thread to see if this had been posted here yet (jeez, what was that all about really? I was sure it was this story, talking about the "rights" of the father, but I don't think so...only went back 4 pages)

Missouri State Rep Rick Bratten, wants women to get permission from the father before they have an abortion. But he's willing to allow an exception in the case of "legitimate rape"

An anti-choice state Republican in Missouri has just introduced legislation to force women to get a permission slip from the man who impregnated them before they can get an abortion.

"Just like any rape, you have to report it, and you have to prove it...So you couldn't just go and say 'Oh yeah, I was raped.' and get an abortion. It has to be a legitimate rape."

WTF is wrong with these guys? two major points here:

1) The idea that a woman needs permission from a man to decide what to do with her own body just pisses me off beyond all reason (I was actually arguing with strangers on the internet, something I avoid most of the time)

2) Are we really back to the "legitimate rape" thing again?

I think of my own youth and I laugh.

If I had become pregnant when I was 18-19 yrs old, I wouldn't have had any clue who the father was (could have narrowed it down some based on race, I guess, but still, wouldn't have known for sure, unless it was obviously Arab).

(and the reason for that behavior---not that I need to justify it, but because it goes along with #2----I was raped by a boy a had a crush on, (my first sexual experience) just because I allowed him to second base and I "knew what he wanted" but it wouldn't qualify as a "legitimate rape" because I was with him in the room, I didn't report it (has he no idea how shaming it is! (I know it's not, but that is how I and so many women feel) and I wasn't "hurt"...I mean all he did was hold me down and stick his dick in me...no harm done at all, afterall, where were my bruises?) I was afraid of men, and had no idea how to deal with them (add in the childhood abuse by father, including some borderline sexual abuse), no idea how to say yes when sober, so I drank, and then didn't have the ability to say no)

(sorry if this should be in politics...it deals with both)

**********************************************************

And now I want to totally switch gears (well, not totally)

I lost the quote I had before, but someone had asked why a person wouldn't tell the father about a child. :

there are plenty of guys who make clear they have no interests in having kids; precautions fail;

just because someone is date worthy or fuck worthy does not make them parent worthy, and precautions can fail.

(I was on the pill when I got pregnant with my older son, using condoms when I got pregnant with the youngest one)

Those on my facebook will have already seen this but I'm really mad. This was the obituary that The Australian decided to run for Colleen McCullough

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10929987_10152652649086918_656088922831205503_n.jpg?oh=46e130057c7f2a9318d3f59f048988b0&oe=55612EA7

It makes me angry but also depressed. How accomplished does a woman have to be, and how long does she have to live before her appearance and/or ability to attract a man is not considered the most noteworthy thing about her?

Absolutely disgusting! Such an amazing and talented woman, and they talk about her looks. Fucktards!

[karaddin]

Lany given you need permission from the Dad that would basically require the rape to go to trial and be found guilty before you could have the abortion, by which point - oops! the baby is born! Couldnt possibly be by design.

[deleted01]

Lany, that is fucking disgusting. A permission slip, are they serious? I have no response, other than outrage.

brook, that's really gross.

This. Again, no response. Why does it matter what a woman (or a man, for that matter) looked like? What the hell is wrong with people.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Lany given you need permission from the Dad that would basically require the rape to go to trial and be found guilty before you could have the abortion, by which point - oops! the baby is born! Couldnt possibly be by design.

Oh, I am sure that never entered their minds, all they want is to do what is best. /nasty sarcasm.

[KiDisaster]

Those on my facebook will have already seen this but I'm really mad. This was the obituary that The Australian decided to run for Colleen McCullough

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10929987_10152652649086918_656088922831205503_n.jpg?oh=46e130057c7f2a9318d3f59f048988b0&oe=55612EA7

It makes me angry but also depressed. How accomplished does a woman have to be, and how long does she have to live before her appearance and/or ability to attract a man is not considered the most noteworthy thing about her?

Holy shit that's repulsive.

[MisterOJ]

NM.

:)