Roose on the Loose Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Squint with me. ASOIAF is the story of what would have happened if King Edward IV (Ned) had lost to Queen Margaret of Anjou (Cersei), but 4 of his children survived to grow up as desperate orphans. The children are Elizabeth of York (Sansa), Mary of York (Arya), Prince Edward (Bran) and Prince Richard (Rickon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I think you're doing the story a disservice by trying to reduce it to a simple historical "what if". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Well, no. From that kernel there has been a lot of embellishment. Dragons and magic, great ideas about love and loyalty and political power. But GRRM freely admits that the War of the Roses was an inspiration for ASOIAF. Just as the Starks are the most sympathetic family in ASOIAF, It's hard to read the history of The War of the Roses without having sympathy for Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikkensmakersmark Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Are you suggesting that GRRM was musing on the story of the War of the Roses and he imagined a parallel story with a twist in the middle? Because I do that sometimes. If that's the theory under review then I would say that it is sufficient but not necessary. That is, I can't think of a way to disprove the thesis, but I don't see compelling evidence that he couldn't have come up with the core if the tale some other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark_Tamer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I see Edward IV as much more closely related to Robert Baratheon. A longstanding dynasty (Targaryens/Lancasters) is overthrown because their king is mad, so a powerful rich "Kingmaker" (Tywin/Earl of Warwick) financed someone from an alternative line (Baratheon/York). From there GRRM goes off script and shakes things up a bit, using details, but with different people (Edward IV's politically stupid marriage going instead to Robb). I DO think though, that Sansa will end up being the "Elizabeth of York" figured--queen regent who marries the "Tudor" (from a bastard/female line, but Lancaster blood--Aegon Blackfyre in this case) to unite everyone again and parent rulers of MANY of the kingdoms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 It's complicated. When I heard about the WoTR parllels, I tried and tried I see Edward IV as much more closely related to Robert Baratheon. A longstanding dynasty (Targaryens/Lancasters) is overthrown because their king is mad, so a powerful rich "Kingmaker" (Tywin/Earl of Warwick) financed someone from an alternative line (Baratheon/York). From there GRRM goes off script and shakes things up a bit, using details, but with different people (Edward IV's politically stupid marriage going instead to Robb). I DO think though, that Sansa will end up being the "Elizabeth of York" figured--queen regent who marries the "Tudor" (from a bastard/female line, but Lancaster blood--Aegon Blackfyre in this case) to unite everyone again and parent rulers of MANY of the kingdoms...It's complicated. When I first heard about the parallels with the WoTR, I tried to crack the code so I could make predictions, like if I knew who Henry Tudor was in ASoIaF that would help a bunch. Later, I decided that GRRM was just using the WoTR as fodder, sticking colorful characters and interesting story lines her and there as needed. I don't think he's retelling the WoTR the way Brdget Jone's Diary retells Pride and Prejuduce. The best example is trying to decipher who are the Lancasters and who are the Yorks. In the history before GOT, the Targaryans were like the Lancasters and the Baratheons were like the Yorks. But in other ways, the Lannisters are the Lancasters and the Starks are the Yorks. Their names are similar, they come from similar regions (North and West), and have similar colors. When I was reading the White Queen I was struck by how desperate Edward IV's family was without him. It also seemed like Ed was trusting and naive like Ned and that Elizabeth Woodville was cold and calculating like Cat. Of course some of this is just Phillipa Gregory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragons Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 People you think that George used only the wars of roses back ground storyline he used many e.g. Rome vs Carthage, The Black Dinner, many more There was Queen Matilda King Henry I of England Matilda was nominated by her father as the heir to the throne of England but in 1135 Stephen of Blois claimed that his uncle had changed his mind on his deathbed. ok I know what you thinking this story is Blacks and Greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 People you think that George used only the wars of roses back ground storyline he used many e.g. Rome vs Carthage, The Black Dinner, many more There was Queen Matilda King Henry I of England Matilda was nominated by her father as the heir to the throne of England but in 1135 Stephen of Blois claimed that his uncle had changed his mind on his deathbed. ok I know what you thinking this story is Blacks and Greens. Yea, GRRM will use almost anything. The thread References and Homages goes on and on and they never run out of material. But the OP is about the structure of the whole work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Squint with me. ASOIAF is the story of what would have happened if King Edward IV (Ned) had lost to Queen Margaret of Anjou (Cersei), but 4 of his children survived to grow up as desperate orphans. The children are Elizabeth of York (Sansa), Mary of York (Arya), Prince Edward (Bran) and Prince Richard (Rickon). Interesting theory. I've heard GRRM state in interviews, referring to the War of the Roses as an influence on the series, as Lannister and Stark as a parallel to Lancaster and York. There's even Ed=Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I took a look in google to see if there were similar parallels between Stark and Edward IV. I found a few blogs that note very similar parallels between Robb and Edward IV. which are very similar: marrying for love after already having a contract of marriage with another, losing their father in a similar way, and never losing in battle. To be sure, I'm sure that GRRM doesn't parallel a historical figure with just one character; I've seen Stannis and Tyrion paralleled with Richard III. But one parallel shared with both Robb and Eddard with Edward IV is the loss of their father: Both Edward IV and his fictional counterpart, Robb Stark, had a father who died a humiliating death. Robb’s father, Ned Stark, was tricked into confessing to a crime he didn’t commit and then executed. Edward IV’s father, Richard Duke of York (Ned’s counterpart), was also killed in humiliating circumstances. During the Battle of Wakefield, Richard of York was killed and Edward’s brother Edmund, inexperienced in warfare, only seventeen, and injured, was executed by John Clifford (“the butcher”). The Lancastrians mounted both Richard of York and his son’s heads on the City of York’s gate to rot – a fate reserved for common criminals and traitors. Worse, the Lancastrians placed a paper crown on Richard of York’s head – allegedly at the queen’s suggestion – to mock Richard of York’s claim to the throne. Robb loses his father by beheading and is in turn beheaded himself, his "paper crown" being Grey Wolf being sewn to his head. Eddard lost his father and brother in yet another humiliating way through wildfire and forced suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragons Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I see Edward IV as much more closely related to Robert Baratheon. A longstanding dynasty (Targaryens/Lancasters) is overthrown because their king is mad, so a powerful rich "Kingmaker" (Tywin/Earl of Warwick) financed someone from an alternative line (Baratheon/York). From there GRRM goes off script and shakes things up a bit, using details, but with different people (Edward IV's politically stupid marriage going instead to Robb). I DO think though, that Sansa will end up being the "Elizabeth of York" figured--queen regent who marries the "Tudor" (from a bastard/female line, but Lancaster blood--Aegon Blackfyre in this case) to unite everyone again and parent rulers of MANY of the kingdoms... I see Edward IV as much more closely related to Robert Baratheon. A longstanding dynasty (Targaryens/Lancasters) is overthrown because their king is mad, so a powerful rich "Kingmaker" (Tywin/Earl of Warwick) financed someone from an alternative line (Baratheon/York). From there GRRM goes off script and shakes things up a bit, using details, but with different people (Edward IV's politically stupid marriage going instead to Robb). I DO think though, that Sansa will end up being the "Elizabeth of York" figured--queen regent who marries the "Tudor" (from a bastard/female line, but Lancaster blood--Aegon Blackfyre in this case) to unite everyone again and parent rulers of MANY of the kingdoms... I think that Targaryens as Plantagenet and Baratheon is York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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