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The Red Wedding was ultimately good for the realm


Prince Davos Martell

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Update: If you are reading the OP now(after the thread has been going on for a while), don't take my OP too literally, if anything I was trying to play the devils advocate to analyse the effects of the Red Wedding without relying on the emotional aspects of it. I was a bit rash in my first post, and after considering this further and remembering more about the details of the effects of the Red Wedding I see that nothing good came of the Red Wedding, except that the fighting ended for the poor people of the Riverlands, and as long as the war ends It does not really matter who is right or wrong, or who stared it, at least in the world of Westeros where the effect of loosing a war is just another liege lord, but that the fighting ended does not outweigh the bad fallout and it does not change the fact that the Red Wedding was a gruesome crime. I will however let the original post follow under this, to give the thread some context



After reading about the destruction the war of the five kings caused, especially in the Riverlands, I have arrived at the conclusion that the war was ultimately a pointless war fought over some nobles honor and lives, at the cost of thousand or hundred of thousands of innocent lives.


This leads me to question if the Red Wedding was so bad after all, as even though the Red Wedding was a brutal massacre, it also saved thousand or maybe hundred of thousands of innocents from being killed by ending the war. By committing the Red Wedding the Freys stopped the war between the Crown and the North, a pointless war over the honor of some nobles. For the common man in Westeros, the war just meant that their fields were destroyed, the people were raped and killed, all over some nobles self interests. Because of this, any way to end the war would be good for the common man.

Is the honor and need for revenge for the Starks worth more than thousands of Riverland, Crownland and Westerland peasants? By continuing the war, this is just what Robb Stark did, he raided land, burned fields, killed innocent people that were conscripted, all to become king and to have his revenge. I am not saying Tywin Lannister did any better, as he did the same in the Riverlands. But, as long as the war ends it does not really matter for the common man who wins, and the Starks were going to loose the war anyway, so the Red Wedding just made it happen sooner.



Also: This is not a troll post, I am just trying to analyse the war without any bias towards the Starks or Lannisters, and to rather consider how the war affected the common man in Westeros.

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Not when those men are no longer availible to hold the wall



It's also not like it ended the war, it's still ongoing. If Robb had gotten to the north he'd be fighting the Ironborn who Roose is now fighting. The Iron Throne wouldn't have tried to retake the Riverlands with it defended and unified and with Euron and Aegon bearing down on them.



Robb making a truce with Stannis seems a little unlikely though. Not impossible, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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And the red-wedding destabilized the north. and now there a very real threat to the realm in whitewalker's.

Robb could be reasoned with, ice demon can't be.

You could argue that even though the North is destabilized, the peace in the South may save the realm more. The real power in Westeros is in the South after all, and had the war lasted longer it would have depleted the strength of all of Westeros as a whole. Any hope of the North defending the wall vanished when Robb decided to march south. Also, less war damage in the Riverlands means less dead from starvation (the situation is already pretty bad), had the war continued the Westerlands may also face famine after Robb was done with it. And lots of dead are a bad thing of the White walkers come south.

Sure, Cersei pretty much ruined the pace after the Red Wedding.. But there is still hope someone can stabilize the South.

Robb making a truce with Stannis seems a little unlikely though. Not impossible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Stannis would never sign any peace. He will fight until the realm is his and united, or he is dead.

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Is anyone naive enough to think this is end?



And Red wedding, as Bright Blue Eyes noted once, completely destroyed Westerosi diplomacy. How many wars will start in future because sides can't trust to uphold the most sacred law in Westeros?



However you look at it, RW turned the game into "everything is possible" which can kill far more people than anyone could imagine.


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Yeah, Tywin tried to spin doctor it like that. Considering the Reynes he may have a point, but unlike the Reynes he didn't get everyone. So this is just going to invite subsequent atrocities in the name of revenge. Like say an undead zombie monster running around hanging people to start off.


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Is anyone naive enough to think this is end?

And Red wedding, as Bright Blue Eyes noted once, completely destroyed Westerosi diplomacy. How many wars will start in future because sides can't trust to uphold the most sacred law in Westeros?

However you look at it, RW turned the game into "everything is possible" which can kill far more people than anyone could imagine.

Kind of a hyperbole, no? Dorne murdered Daeron I at a parley under a peace banner. We still see parley as a regular part of warfare. Guest right is still practiced and taken for granted in every other place in Westeros. Davos for example is both relieved to have eaten Borrell's bread and salt (despite the man's reputation), and shocked to learn that Manderly would capture and execute an envoy. Both of these cases happen in Dance, well after the Red Wedding, and with the Red Wedding and the Freys breaking guest right being mentioned and condemned.

The act itself is condemned by many, yet it is clear that the only one to suffer loss of trust is old man Frey. His sons and grandsons will have the reputation of old Frey hanging over thiers, yet it is clearly not something that is unheared of in the history of Westeros.

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Kind of a hyperbole, no? Dorne murdered Daeron I at a parley under a peace banner. We still see parlay as a regular part of warfare. guest right is still practiced and taken for granted in every other place in Westeros. Davos for example is both relieved to have eaten Borell's bread and salt (despite the man's reputation), and shocked to learn that Manderly would capture and execute an envoy. Both of these cases happen in Dance, well after the Red Wedding, and with the Red Wedding and the Freys breaking guest right being mentioned and condemned.

Yes, but once you open those doors, it is difficult to close them. There is a reason why Freys have become universally disliked in Westeros.

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Is anyone naive enough to think this is end?

And Red wedding, as Bright Blue Eyes noted once, completely destroyed Westerosi diplomacy. How many wars will start in future because sides can't trust to uphold the most sacred law in Westeros?

However you look at it, RW turned the game into "everything is possible" which can kill far more people than anyone could imagine.

Thanks. You made my point.

Don't forget the historical importance, by the way. The Red Wedding will cause Northmen and Riverlanders to kill Westermen and Freys for centuries. Nothing like an atrocity like that to fuel nationalism, resentment and in the end even fascism right down to genocide.

Kind of a hyperbole, no? Dorne murdered Daeron I at a parley under a peace banner. We still see parlay as a regular part of warfare. guest right is still practiced and taken for granted in every other place in Westeros. Davos for example is both relieved to have eaten Borell's bread and salt (despite the man's reputation), and shocked to learn that Manderly would capture and execute an envoy. Both of these cases happen in Dance, well after the Red Wedding, and with the Red Wedding and the Freys breaking guest right being mentioned and condemned.

It's an ongoing process. We don't know which straw will break the camel's back, but in the end it will break.

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I posted this is another thread, so I'll just paste it here:

In short term, Red Wedding was a brilliant move, at least for Tywin and the Lannisters. It eliminated charismatic enemy king immediately, killed most of his army, demoralized the rest and gave opportunity for blackmailing Northern families with hostages.

In long term, however, it was far from brilliant. First and foremost, while it did eliminate the enemy, it drastically changed the warfare customs - for the worse. It established that killing thousands of unarmed guests is okay thing to do and legitimate way of leading a war. Before RW, such act was unthinkable - Cat and Robb thought they were safe once Walder Frey offered them food and drink. They, along with the rest of Northern army, did not even consider the possibility of Frey betrayal while protected by guest right. Now, every subordinate of Bolton, Frey and Lannister houses has legitimate excuse to do similar thing to their own overlords. Ultimately, it makes future wars more treacherous and more costly.

Secondly, it made excellent rallying point for Northmen (much like American battle cry "Remember the Alamo", and yes, I'm aware that Alamo was a siege, not guest-slaying. I'm just stating that defeat at Alamo made great unifying point for all American soldiers). Before, North could bow the knee under right conditions. I think Robb's resolve to prolong the war would weaken over time, and Robb, with right leverage, would consider making peace (much like Ned). Nowdays, every existing Northmen will be hell-bent on revenge. Instead of usual enemy, L&B&F got themselves rabid "determinators" who will fight to the very end. RW made the war personal for them.

And thirdly - instead of inexperienced and fallible teenager king, his enemies are now facing the legend of martyr. This is much related to second point explained above.

Firstly, RW didn't end the war. That much should be obvious to anyone who has read ADWD.

Secondly, it makes future wars way bloodier. Guest right was an unspoken agreement between everyone: "in order to limit damage in already brutal wars, lets institute guest right". Much like nowdays agreement not to use nukes. What Twin and Walder did bas basically use goodwill of all Westerosi accumulated over the millenia and used it to temporarily win the war from themselves. But now that "murder your guests" tactics in back on the table again, who knows what future wars will bring to Westeros? Likely more death and destruction.

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I agree that the Red Wedding had some negative effects, such as making the North intent on revenge, and the fact that Guest Rights were broken. But, I don't feel wars would be so much worse after this than before.


If you look at it, Westeros kinda have a strange view of what is bad in war:


1: Sacking of a city, including rape, killing => OK


2: Raping and killing peasants => OK


3: Burning and destroying farmland, so that peasants are doomed to starve => OK


4: Breaking Guest Rights => Totally morally objectionable.



The Hound notices this irony of this, and decides to become a parody of it.



So, even if the Red Wedding did not end war for all time, it did make life a lot easier (but, their lives are still hard thanks to the war) for the people in the Riverlands and Westerlands. That at least, is a good thing.


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I agree that the Red Wedding had some negative effects, such as making the North intent on revenge, and the fact that Guest Rights were broken. But, I don't feel wars would be so much worse after this than before.

If you look at it, Westeros kinda have a strange view of what is bad in war:

1: Sacking of a city, including rape, killing => OK

2: Raping and killing peasants => OK

3: Burning and destroying farmland, so that peasants are doomed to starve => OK

4: Breaking Guest Rights => Totally morally objectionable.

So, even if the Red Wedding did not end war for all time, it did make life a lot easier (but, their lives are still hard thanks to the war) for the people in the Riverlands and Westerlands. That at least, is a good thing.

So, how does it make easier when the war continues? The was isn't end and it would be quite naive to say that passions have cooled down when Freys are dropping like flies all over Riverlands, that we have North also starting a civil war to destroy the Boltons, that no one trusts no one anymore. How it was a good thing when it actually brought even more bad blood between opposing sides?

And, where did you get the idea that people of Riverlands got better after RW?

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So, how does it make easier when the war continues? The was isn't end and it would be quite naive to say that passions have cooled down when Freys are dropping like flies all over Riverlands, that we have North also starting a civil war to destroy the Boltons, that no one trusts no one anymore. How it was a good thing when it actually brought even more bad blood between opposing sides?

And, where did you get the idea that people of Riverlands got better after RW?

Robb could never win the war, so having that part of the war end brings peace at least between the North and the South, and the Northern civil war does not really affect the South. That Freys are dropping like flies does not really affect the common man.

The Riverlands got better afer the Red Wedding, simply by the fact that there would never be any peace in the Riverlands as long as Robb is King. If Robb does not attend the Red Wedding, and move North as planned, the Lannisters would ravage the Riverlands, trying to make the lives of the Tullys and the common people just bad enough for Robb to decide to come south again.

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