Compare and contrast Oberyn and Brandon

[TimJames]

I have a feeling that if Oberyn was the oldest brother than he would have done the same thing Brandon did.

[Chebyshov]

I think rather than say who's "into consent," I'd phrase it in that Oberyn is a feminist, whereas Brandon's the type of guy who if he were around today, would unironically wear a menenist shirt. He's like a slightly more in-check Robert. I think the wording "into consent," is getting us a little stuck in the conversation, but I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Oberyn is more concerned with female sexual agency. Look how he raised his daughters, for instance. I strongly don't see Brandon doing the same.

I don't know if I want to tug on the whole Ashara thread, so I'll leave it there for now.

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

I don't know if I want to tug on the whole Ashara thread, so I'll leave it there for now.

I almost brought this up, too. They both danced with her, and clearly they both wanted to hit that, since apparently EVERYBODY wanted to hit that.

[Chebyshov]

I almost brought this up, too. They both danced with her, and clearly they both wanted to hit that, since apparently EVERYBODY wanted to hit that.

Actually I meant that in my view Brandon most certainly schtupped her, knowing full well how his brother felt. Aka he's just kind of a jerk in a way that Oberyn isn't. But any mention of Ashara always derails threads into debating that specific point.

[Boarsbane]

I believe Oberyn poisoned old Yronwood so I think they are both ass holes but Brandon less so.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

They were bold, fighters, devoted to family, close to their sisters. At least one had the good sense to try and rally the realm to war instead of going to king's landing with a few friends calling for a member of the royal family to die.

[hear me bore]

Well, Oberyn seemed to be a lot more into, like, consent, then Brandon was. I mean, Oberyn did once punch his Baby Mama in the face, so hes far from perfect but Brandons whole A bloody sword is a beautiful thing is just :ack:

And he was an intellectual and poor Brandon was... not by all accounts.

And I somehow dont think Brandon would ever take his daughters on educational field trips or teach them all about sexual agency.

There is textual evidence for one of them abusing a woman. Yet, you blame the wrong one. Good job.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Pretty the only thing they have in common is devotion to family, fighting instincts and pride. Probably every other adult male in the series fits that bill, though.

:agree:

Very much this as far as similarities go.

On the contrasts side, Oberyn is everyone's favourite lovable rogue while Brandon is everyone's favourite punching bag.

[TimJames]

:agree:

Very much this as far as similarities go.

On the contrasts side, Oberyn is everyone's favourite lovable rogue while Brandon is everyone's favourite punching bag.

The reason for that is shipping. There is a vocal slice of the reader population who like to pretend Rhaegar and Lyanna were star crossed lovers in a romantic comedy, and as such believe on a subconscious level that Brandon deserved to die for trying to keep Lyanna and Rhaegar apart.

For more on that, look at the tv tropes page linked below.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip

And as I said before in previous posts, I do not think Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. I think Rhaegar was probably a rapist. Everyone's permitted their own opinion, and everyone has evidence to back up their own.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

The reason for that is shipping. There is a vocal slice of the reader population who like to pretend Rhaegar and Lyanna were star crossed lovers in a romantic comedy, and as such believe on a subconscious level that Brandon deserved to die for trying to keep Lyanna and Rhaegar apart.

For more on that, look at the tv tropes page linked below.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip

And as I said before in previous posts, I do not think Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. I think Rhaegar was probably a rapist. Everyone's permitted their own opinion, and everyone has evidence to back up their own.

Well, I disagree about Rhaegar, I do believe R+L was a love story but yes, I agree that shipping is one of the reasons, for some. An other reason might be that Brandon is the "chosen one" to fill the (supposedly necessary) Bad Stark quota (that would mean, to paint a twirling mustache in Brandon's imaginary picture).

[Siddard Stark]

Well Ned Stark's POV tells us that he believed Brandon to be very capable and so did Lord Rickard, there is no where in the text that Brandon was incompetent. Everyone blames his rash actions trying to save his sister. To me it shows that he was a very loving brother who was worried about the honor of his little sister. I recon if Brandon was in Winterfell with Lord Rickard things would have gone differently. I recon Oberyn to be as reckless and hotheaded as Brandon Stark, the only difference is at the time of Elia's death he was probably with Doran Martell, we all know Doran to be a cautious man so he was probably the voice of reason who contained his younger brother The Red Viper from doing anything stupid.

As far is Brandon Stark sleeping with other women is concerned, not every man can be like Eddard Stark and wait until marriage. Brandon was handsome, confident and the heir to Winterfell women were attracted to him and willing to sleep with him it does not make him a bad person. The women were probably using him as much as he was using them. There is no indication what so ever that Like Roose Bolton, Brandon went on a hunt and raped some peasant women he liked. Seriously i don't get bias towards Brandon Stark, i actually like the guy he sounds like a badass character i would like to know more about. It is a pity that Brandon Stark is not remembered for some great deed. Just that he died early because of the wolf blood!!!!

[hear me bore]

Well Ned Stark's POV tells us that he believed Brandon to be very capable and so did Lord Rickard, there is no where in the text that Brandon was incompetent. Everyone blames his rash actions trying to save his sister. To me it shows that he was a very loving brother who was worried about the honor of his little sister. I recon if Brandon was in Winterfell with Lord Rickard things would have gone differently. I recon Oberyn to be as reckless and hotheaded as Brandon Stark, the only difference is at the time of Elia's death he was probably with Doran Martell, we all know Doran to be a cautious man so he was probably the voice of reason who contained his younger brother The Red Viper from doing anything stupid.

As far is Brandon Stark sleeping with other women is concerned, not every man can be like Eddard Stark and wait until marriage. Brandon was handsome, confident and the heir to Winterfell women were attracted to him and willing to sleep with him it does not make him a bad person. The women were probably using him as much as he was using them. There is no indication what so ever that Like Roose Bolton, Brandon went on a hunt and raped some peasant women he liked. Seriously i don't get bias towards Brandon Stark, i actually like the guy he sounds like a badass character i would like to know more about. It is a pity that Brandon Stark is not remembered for some great deed. Just that he died early because of the wolf blood!!!!

The Brandon hate definitely comes from fans of the baby dragon. People try to use Barbrey's words to portray him as a bad guy, when he's the only Stark she likes.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

They are the same. The only difference is that Oberyn had someone to calm him down and that Oberyn is older. Also Elia was already dead when Lyanna might still be alive which means that Brandon didn't had any time to waste by starting every single castle, tower, house, inn, hut, crannog and cave in order to find her.

[Rickeen Stark]

I'm not understanding the Brandon hate. We know next to nothing about it and what we do know, isn't like Joffrey cutting open a cat. He was rash and described of having the wolf blood, like his sister. He could've loved Lady Barbrey but had to do as his father wished for the Southern Ambitions. He was a coin, she was a coin, nothing in her memory suggests that he raped her. A bloody sword indicates taking a maidenhood; did he take more than her's? We don't know. We do know he has no bastards running around, while Oberyn has many. Both seemed hot headed and sexy; some women are attracted to that. Ned was bland and distant, mud. Brandon like Oberyn, was fire.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm not understanding the Brandon hate. We know next to nothing about it and what we do know, isn't like Joffrey cutting open a cat. He was rash and described of having the wolf blood, like his sister. He could've loved Lady Barbrey but had to do as his father wished for the Southern Ambitions. He was a coin, she was a coin, nothing in her memory suggests that he raped her. A bloody sword indicates taking a maidenhood; did he take more than her's? We don't know. We do know he has no bastards running around, while Oberyn has many. Both seemed hot headed and sexy; some women are attracted to that. Ned was bland and distant, mud. Brandon like Oberyn, was fire.

Same here. I believe that is because he was hot tempered and he went against SilverPrince Charming.

[Siddard Stark]

Well thats why i would like to know more about Brandon Stark............and i would have loved to hear about Lord Cregan Stark, Rodrik Stark (The Wondering Wolf), Rickon Stark (The Hungary Wolf) and also Artos Stark. The world of Ice and Fire gave us a lot of information about Targaryen and none about House Stark. I would have liked to read a bit more detail about the historical Starks.

[TimJames]

Well, I disagree about Rhaegar, I do believe R+L was a love story but yes, I agree that shipping is one of the reasons, for some. An other reason might be that Brandon is the "chosen one" to fill the (supposedly necessary) Bad Stark quota (that would mean, to paint a twirling mustache in Brandon's imaginary picture).

I just hope you are aware that Brandon could have honest to god believed Rhaegar was raping Lyanna even if he wasn't (it is possible to misread a disappearance and come to a wrong conclusion [especally in an era before modern detective methods were available for use]).

It is interesting, I never considered that the fans who bash Brandon just think the Starks are too goody goody and want at least one to be bad. Still, I suppose it is possible as there are fans who think that Eddard was evil, that Jon was evil, that the Freys are justified, or other alternate character interpretations which give me migraines to listen to.

[NorthGirl]

That's funny because I just saw Brandon as a maybe less douchey and not alcoholic Robert. But yeah, actually I can see the parallel between Elia/Oberyn and Lyanna/Brandon. They definitely are both described as hotheads who think the world of their sisters. I think that their differences are also a reflection of their respective cultures. Re: attitude towards sex, I believe they are both a product of their environment to an extent. I don't think one is better or worse than the other though, they both felt the need to defend/avenge a loved one and lost perspective in doing so. I do think they would be people who under different circumstances could have gotten along.

As for the Brandon is a rapist debate, I think that's taking it way too far when textual evidence just depicts him as a player, crass one at that. Nothing makes it sound like she was forced to have sex with him. Going by the "maybe she thought she had to" logic, every newlywed who married for anything other than love was raped; Ned and Cat raped each other because they felt they had to consummate their marriage...So unless the people making this argument are prepared to accept that as a fact as well, it really doesn't hold up. I think a woman would know if she was taken against her will.

I can understand saying that she was infatuated with him and made herself believe it was consensual, but textual evidence would have to be provided in order to show that it was the intent of the author. Adding one's own impressions of him does not make him a rapist. In fact, even if he was an asshole, that does not automatically make him a rapist. It just means he was good at getting what he wanted from women, probably without offering much in return.

[The Dragons Hand]

Oberyn:

"MY SISTAH! I KILL THEM ALL FUCK THEM!!! IM GONNA..."

"Brother, calm down. We'll think this through"

"Ok..."

Brandon:

"MY SISTAH! I KILL THEM ALL FUCK THEM!!! IM GONNA KILL THEM ALL, BASTARDS! RHAEGAR! COME OUT AND DIE! WHAT? LET ME GO IM THREATENING NO ONE, WHAT? FATHER! NO LET HIM GO! LET HIM GO! GIVE MY SWOAAAARRRGHHH....".

/Thread

[The Dragons Hand]

I think rather than say who's "into consent," I'd phrase it in that Oberyn is a feminist, whereas Brandon's the type of guy who if he were around today, would unironically wear a menenist shirt. He's like a slightly more in-check Robert. I think the wording "into consent," is getting us a little stuck in the conversation, but I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Oberyn is more concerned with female sexual agency. Look how he raised his daughters, for instance. I strongly don't see Brandon doing the same.

I don't know if I want to tug on the whole Ashara thread, so I'll leave it there for now.

Taking meninism unironically is like holding a baby with your elbows.

So it does fit in with my perception of Brandon being a big dumb dude-bro who was a Baratheon in a previous life.