darkdude103 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 This just came to mind and even though rheagar and Aerys are largely blamed for the fall of there house it seems to me thta Cersei is to blame.She was tge biggest factor in causing Jamie to join the kingsgaurd which caused Tywin to Resign as hand.Kmowong Tywin he would probably keep control of the blooming rebellion after harenhall as well as be able to convince Aeryis not to kill rickard and Brandon Or at the very least be able to end the rebellion quickly as the lannister forces could have made all the diffrence.What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStarkInWinterhell Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 That woman has been screwing everything up since childhood. And I agree although I think Aerys would have found another way to p*ss off Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No, House Targaryen caused House Targaryen to fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No, House Targaryen caused House Targaryen to fall i still think the maesters where behind a lot of it as they are not only anti magic but anti people with magic blood like aemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 i still think the maesters where behind a lot of it as they are not only anti magic but anti people with magic blood like aemon. if youre referring to summerhall, thats not what i mean. Aerys, and Rhaegar, ESPECIALLY RHaegar, caused House Targaryen to fall. the only real debate here is who was more responsible, Aerys, or RHaegar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Vaes Tolorro Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Cersei might cause House Lannister to fall, but House Targaryen? Even she ain't that crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yeah I've said this before. One could argue that Cersei got the Mad King killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yeah I've said this before. One could argue that Cersei got the Mad King killed. consider the whisperings of "Varys" in Aerys' ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 if youre referring to summerhall, thats not what i mean. Aerys, and Rhaegar, ESPECIALLY RHaegar, caused House Targaryen to fall. the only real debate here is who was more responsible, Aerys, or RHaegar If we want to be all "conspiranoid" about it, how Maester Yandel knew that Rhaegar left with six men and were he went? Because Pycelle wrote him to tell him. The Citadel were likely following all of the Targaryen's steps and used anything they could to their favour. If they were in a place with a Maester, such Maester could have "misinformed" Brandon about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If we want to be all "conspiranoid" about it, how Maester Yandel knew that Rhaegar left with six men and were he went? Because Pycelle wrote him to tell him. The Citadel were likely following all of the Targaryen's steps and used anything they could to their favour. If they were in a place with a Maester, such Maester could have "misinformed" Brandon about it. while i believe there's a lot more to the citadel than what meets the eye (see Marwyn), i dont think it was they who influenced Aerys' decisions. Varys, definitely, it's actually int he text, but I don't see a connection between the citadel (as it's own power) and Aerys' downfall. Pycelle as a character doesn't give up much. He definitely has a secretive side (or did, anyway), but we won't know for sure. Our only gateway into the citadel is Sam, and of course, Marwyn when (and if) he reaches Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 if youre referring to summerhall, thats not what i mean. Aerys, and Rhaegar, ESPECIALLY RHaegar, caused House Targaryen to fall. the only real debate here is who was more responsible, Aerys, or RHaegar i think they did that as well as killing the dragons which set up the fall but we are told they wanted maester Aemon at the wall because they dislike Targs with their magic blood. all of this makes me wonder if they sent pycelle to kings landing because they knew he was loyal to the lannisters and etc...to destabilize their rule. Maybe brandon's marriage to Cat and etc.. was suggested by the the stark maester along with others to isolate the targs and to set up the dominos of the anti targ alliance. also i see varys as everyones scapegoat because he is foreigner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 if youre referring to summerhall, thats not what i mean. Aerys, and Rhaegar, ESPECIALLY RHaegar, caused House Targaryen to fall. the only real debate here is who was more responsible, Aerys, or RHaegarNo, there isn't. The idea that Rhaegar was somehow equally, let alone more responsible for the Targaryen downfall than Aerys, is laughable. (What more did Aerys need to do to convince you he caused the war and the downfall of his house, almost singlehandedly?)Though not as laughable as the title/OP of this thread. Cersei is responsible for both Aerys' and Tywin's actions now? Not to mention the assumption that Tywin would have squashed the rebellion. You do no know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larastone Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 yeah because jaime's just a fucking baby who can't make any decisions of his own right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 yeah because jaime's just a fucking baby who can't make any decisions of his own right? Well, apparently it's not only Jaime, Cersei is responsible for the things Aerys did and for the things Tywin did, too. None of them bear any responsibility for their own actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larastone Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Well, apparently it's not only Jaime, Cersei is responsible for the things Aerys did and for the things Tywin did, too. None of them bear any responsibility for their own actions. she's also at fault for tyrion killing tywin don't forget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Belwas The Strong Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 she's also at fault for tyrion killing tywin don't forget And for the things Joffrey did too, so she was the cause of the WOT5K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No, there isn't. The idea that Rhaegar was somehow equally, let alone more responsible for the Targaryen downfall than Aerys, is laughable. (What more did Aerys need to do to convince you he caused the war and the downfall of his house, almost singlehandedly?)Though not as laughable as the title/OP of this thread. Cersei is responsible for both Aerys' and Tywin's actions now? Not to mention the assumption that Tywin would have squashed the rebellion. You do no know that. *brainstorm* imagine rhaegar, DIDNT, get pushed into the tournament at harrenhall, never became a warrior, and never visited summerhall to get ideas. imagine he just led a noble life. no reason for robert to rebel. aerys wouldve fell all on his own. tournament at harrenhall--->rhaegar fell for lyanna---> rhaegar kidnaps lyanna--->robert's rebellion--->downfall of house targaryen if you want to go into theory territory summerhall tragedy--->ghost of high heart mourns at summerhall--->rhaegar meets her with his harp--->ghost tells him things--->rhaegar comes back sad, depressed--->suddenly confirms something in a book, leading him to become a warrior--->tournament at harrenhall--->rhaegar falls for lyanna--->rhaegar kidnaps lyanna--->robert's rebellion--->downfall of house targaryen aerys was digging a hole for house targaryen, dont get me wrong. rhaegar is what pushed the house, into that hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 cersei will be undoubtedly responsible for the downfall of house lannister, but certainly not targaryen's fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 *brainstorm* imagine rhaegar, DIDNT, get pushed into the tournament at harrenhall, never became a warrior, and never visited summerhall to get ideas. imagine he just led a noble life. no reason for robert to rebel. aerys wouldve fell all on his own. tournament at harrenhall--->rhaegar fell for lyanna---> rhaegar kidnaps lyanna--->robert's rebellion--->downfall of house targaryen if you want to go into theory territory summerhall tragedy--->ghost of high heart mourns at summerhall--->rhaegar meets her with his harp--->ghost tells him things--->rhaegar comes back sad, depressed--->suddenly confirms something in a book, leading him to become a warrior--->tournament at harrenhall--->rhaegar falls for lyanna--->rhaegar kidnaps lyanna--->robert's rebellion--->downfall of house targaryen aerys was digging a hole for house targaryen, dont get me wrong. rhaegar is what pushed the house, into that hole.Robert didn't rebel because of Lyanna. Nobody rebelled because of Lyanna - Brandon was the one who did something, but it was to go to KL and demand to fight and kill Rhaegar. And in fact, Robert didn't start the rebellion at all.Jon Arryn was the one who started the rebellion, after Aerys had 1) brutally and gruesomely murdered Lord Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark and several other nobles including Jon Arryn's nephew/heir, and 2) demanded Jon Arryn to execute his former wards Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark.(It should be called Jon's Rebellion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Robert didn't rebel because of Lyanna. Nobody rebelled because of Lyanna - Brandon was the one who did something, but it was to go to KL and demand to fight and kill Rhaegar. And in fact, Robert didn't start the rebellion at all.Jon Arryn was the one who started the rebellion, after Aerys had 1) brutally and gruesomely murdered Lord Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark and several other nobles including Jon Arryn's nephew/heir, and 2) demanded Jon Arryn to execute his former wards Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark.(It should be called Jon's Rebellion.) all im saying, and percentages can be distributed however you please, the downfall of house targaryen was primarily aerys and rhaegar. thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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