Lykaios Wolfsheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Hello everyone, welcome to my first post on this forum. I have a theory regarding Valyrian steel and how it was made. I have been holding back on bringing this forward for a week or so now purely because I was so sure it was going to have been said before somewhere, but so far I haven't found evidence of somebody discussing this before, and so I shall make my post and hope for the best. So I have read in several posts across lots of websites that a lot of magic (especially in the Freehold of Valyria) could be rooted in blood magic and sacrifice. Obviously Mirri Maz Durr would support this, and sacrifice of blood or life has created magical moments before (Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword). With this in mind, and G.R.RM. confirming that magic was used in the forging of Valyrian Steel, I hypothesize that Valyrian Steel was made with Blood Sacrifice of a specific kind. The story of Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai tells us that Lightbringer was tempered in the heart of a woman that AA loved, and that he had to sacrifice her to create his ultimate weapon. This seems like a very powerful form of Blood Sacrifice, and created a very powerful weapon. What if the same was done in Valyria to create their weapons? But with Dragons? Dragons are very powerful creatures, and if someone managed to bind their souls with swords, it would make a incredible weaponry. This could also be why it was potentially referred to as "Dragonsteel", as it was literally steel made from Dragons. The Valyrians could set it up so that they could plunge the tempered steel into the heart of a restrained Dragon, taking its life-force and binding it to the blade. This would give it superior qualities and give it a very long-lasting durability. Now this is where my idea gets a bit crackpot, so get the tin-foil hats out and prepare... This could have potentially started as a sentimental thing for when a Dragon grew old or was at death's door so that they could preserve the Dragons life-force in the form of a powerful, ceremonial weapon (this would explain the sheer lack of swords the Targaryens brought to Dragonstone.) What if, when the Kings and Lords of Westeros found out about this extraordinary weaponry, they were offering huge amounts of Gold, secrets and goodness knows what else to get their hands on these blades. The sacrifice of Dragons would certainly explain the sheer value of a blade like that (but I imagine the Valyrian's kept that part secret). But what if the Valyrians grew greedy with the gold they were earning from these Westerosi? What if the Valyrians started to sacrifice young healthy Dragons? What if one escaped.The Doom is described as a mainly volcanic occurrence, and wiped out almost all life there. Now I don't know about you, but I imagine a very pissed off and strong dragon could cause absolutely mass destruction on its own, but imagine a lot of very pissed off and strong dragons escaping? We know that Valyria is now a smoking ruin, and that a large majority of Valyrians and Dragons were killed, a war between the two could be the perfect explanation for the doom. Again this is purely a topic for discussion I wanted to put forward. So feel free to give me your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adiman83 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Interesting idea about the weapons being forged Azor Ahai style. But I don't see that as the reason for the Doom. Some pissed off dragons I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykaios Wolfsheart Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Interesting idea about the weapons being forged Azor Ahai style. But I don't see that as the reason for the Doom. Some pissed off dragons I mean. That was more me trying to connect the two, I did warn that that bit was crackpot haha. But thank you for your thoughts :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I have also always asumed that lightbringer was soe sort of valyrian steel mainly because of the many times AA folded the steel, but this is a ood observation. interesting theoy bout the doom, but I don't thnk it that likely as the valyrians would know how to kill or neutralize the dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I always assumed VS involved a human sacrifice, but a dragon sacrifice makes sense as well. However the other part is just gibberish we already know that the fm caused the doom by assassinating the pyromancers who kept it in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorVoid Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I always assumed VS involved a human sacrifice, but a dragon sacrifice makes sense as well. However the other part is just gibberish we already know that the fm caused the doom by assassinating the pyromancers who kept it in check. o_O From where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 TWOIAF, the master who largely fills up the book quotes a maester who he often dismisses as nonsensical because that maester talks about magic. We know certain things that master said are true, such as ravens once being able to speak, and later that maester who believes in magic is said to have speculated that the doom was caused by infighting among dragonlord families, suggesting that too many of the pyromancers who kept the doom in check were assassinated. Combine that with another mention that the Valyrians had a prophecy that Lannister gold would destroy them, with the fact that the Lannisters paid enough gold to raise an army to a Valyrian family to buy Brightroar, and you get that the Valyrian family who sold Brightroar to the Lannisters paid the fm to assassinate a rival families pyromancers, and boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 o_O From where? i think in the TWOIAF they mention that human sacrifice in Qohor is part of their VS reforging secrets maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satin fetch me a cock! Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I like the theory about a dragon being NN. With this story having balance, I wonder of the original sword Ice was made in a similar way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the World Book essentially confirms that blood sacrifice is necessary to make Valyrian Steele: Qohorik swords, knives, and armor are superior to even the best castle-forged steel of Westeros, and the city’s smiths have perfected the art of infusing deep color into the metals of their work, producing armor and weaponry of lasting beauty. Only here, in all the world, has the art of reworking Valyrian steel been preserved, its secrets jealously guarded.... Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealously the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol, the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce a steel to equal that of the Freehold. I also recently listned to my first ever ASOIAF Podcast this AM and Lady G and Yolkboy had a nice discussion of Salador Saan's description of the forging of Light Bringer. In short, they point out (among many other things) that tempering a sword in the heart of a person is a form of blood sacrifice. The story states: "A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes." So, her blood, soul, strength and courage went into the sword when she was sacrificed. Now this can lead us in a few directions. Mithras Stoneborn once pointed out to me that "Nissa" means moon in I think it was Iriquoi or another native american language. Also, note that Nissa's cry cracked the moon. Many others have pointed out that the other time a "crack in the moon" is told in our story is when Dorea tells Dany about the birth of Dragons when the second moon shattered. I'll let that be for a moment. We can also point out that in Sam's version of the AA legend, he wielded a sword of "dragon steel." Query if that is the same as Valyrian Steel as Sam suggests or something else. I really like the suggestion that "dragon steel" is a form of Valyrian Steel but tempered with Dragon Blood rather than a human sacrifice. From there the speculation can run rampant. But I agree, Valyrian Steel is quite clearly created through blood sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgarad Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I always figured that Valyrian Steel is the result of molten iron mixed with molten obsidian and the only thing that can melt obsidian is dragon fire, hence Dragon Steel. It's possible that the exact formula/method to create it was a secret held by one/few of the 40 dragon riding families and the knowledge was lost after the doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the World Book essentially confirms that blood sacrifice is necessary to make Valyrian Steele: Qohorik swords, knives, and armor are superior to even the best castle-forged steel of Westeros, and the city’s smiths have perfected the art of infusing deep color into the metals of their work, producing armor and weaponry of lasting beauty. Only here, in all the world, has the art of reworking Valyrian steel been preserved, its secrets jealously guarded. ... Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealously the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol, the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce a steel to equal that of the Freehold. I also recently listned to my first ever ASOIAF Podcast this AM and Lady G and Yolkboy had a nice discussion of Salador Saan's description of the forging of Light Bringer. In short, they point out (among many other things) that tempering a sword in the heart of a person is a form of blood sacrifice. The story states: "A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes." So, her blood, soul, strength and courage went into the sword when she was sacrificed. Now this can lead us in a few directions. Mithras Stoneborn once pointed out to me that "Nissa" means moon in I think it was Iriquoi or another native american language. Also, note that Nissa's cry cracked the moon. Many others have pointed out that the other time a "crack in the moon" is told in our story is when Dorea tells Dany about the birth of Dragons when the second moon shattered. I'll let that be for a moment. We can also point out that in Sam's version of the AA legend, he wielded a sword of "dragon steel." Query if that is the same as Valyrian Steel as Sam suggests or something else. I really like the suggestion that "dragon steel" is a form of Valyrian Steel but tempered with Dragon Blood rather than a human sacrifice. From there the speculation can run rampant. But I agree, Valyrian Steel is quite clearly created through blood sacrifice. So are you say Tobho Mott sacrifices people when he reworks Valyrian steel? A la ice into widow`s wail and oathkeepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 So are you say Tobho Mott sacrifices people when he reworks Valyrian steel? A la ice into widow`s wail and oathkeepr That's an interesting question... given that Tobho couldn't quite get the colors right, I'm inclined to think no and that's the reason why he had problems. Or maybe it explains what happened to Tyrek Lannister (j/k) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I always figured that Valyrian Steel is the result of molten iron mixed with molten obsidian and the only thing that can melt obsidian is dragon fire, hence Dragon Steel. It's possible that the exact formula/method to create it was a secret held by one/few of the 40 dragon riding families and the knowledge was lost after the doom. That's the theory Lady G and Yolkboy suggest in their podcast.... While it makes some sense to me, I'm not sold yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 That's an interesting question... given that Tobho couldn't quite get the colors right, I'm inclined to think no and that's the reason why he had problems. Or maybe it explains what happened to Tyrek Lannister (j/k) Well with Gendry as an apprentice he could use his blood any time he cuts himself. After all the boy has pretty powerful blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Never thought of this before, but it kinda makes sense. At least the blood(from Dragons or Human) sacrifice to make valyrian steel. Not sure of how that relates to the doom of valyria, and I am unsure if it is. The doom probably has to do with magic, but Dragons do not make much sense to me, as the Valyrians probably had a Dragon escape from time to time, and probably knew how to deal with it (fight it with other dragons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykaios Wolfsheart Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Thanks for all the feedback guys, just crazy thoughts I had haha :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon King Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think the World Book essentially confirms that blood sacrifice is necessary to make Valyrian Steele: Qohorik swords, knives, and armor are superior to even the best castle-forged steel of Westeros, and the city’s smiths have perfected the art of infusing deep color into the metals of their work, producing armor and weaponry of lasting beauty. Only here, in all the world, has the art of reworking Valyrian steel been preserved, its secrets jealously guarded. ... Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealously the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol, the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce a steel to equal that of the Freehold. I also recently listned to my first ever ASOIAF Podcast this AM and Lady G and Yolkboy had a nice discussion of Salador Saan's description of the forging of Light Bringer. In short, they point out (among many other things) that tempering a sword in the heart of a person is a form of blood sacrifice. The story states: "A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes." So, her blood, soul, strength and courage went into the sword when she was sacrificed. Now this can lead us in a few directions. Mithras Stoneborn once pointed out to me that "Nissa" means moon in I think it was Iriquoi or another native american language. Also, note that Nissa's cry cracked the moon. Many others have pointed out that the other time a "crack in the moon" is told in our story is when Dorea tells Dany about the birth of Dragons when the second moon shattered. I'll let that be for a moment. We can also point out that in Sam's version of the AA legend, he wielded a sword of "dragon steel." Query if that is the same as Valyrian Steel as Sam suggests or something else. I really like the suggestion that "dragon steel" is a form of Valyrian Steel but tempered with Dragon Blood rather than a human sacrifice. From there the speculation can run rampant. But I agree, Valyrian Steel is quite clearly created through blood sacrifice. Regarding the Quohor story, that doesn't mean that VS is created through human sacrifice, only that the guy thought it was. Perhaps he was influenced by the Azor Ahai story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Regarding the Quohor story, that doesn't mean that VS is created through human sacrifice, only that the guy thought it was. Perhaps he was influenced by the Azor Ahai story. True. But when you combine it with what the World Book tells us about Gogossos and the Valyrian aptitude for blood magic... it seems likely that blood sacrifice would be used to make Valyrian steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 True. But when you combine it with what the World Book tells us about Gogossos and the Valyrian aptitude for blood magic... it seems likely that blood sacrifice would be used to make Valyrian steel. Valyrian Steel is made using magic, and we have it in the books that ALL Valyrian magic was rooted in "fire and blood." Yes blood magic, with sacrifice as a likely component, is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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