How much blood is on Theon`s hands?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

A lot is made of the two miller`s boys Theon had murdered, passed off as Bran and Rickon, and his redemption from this act. But how many deaths is he really responsible for? He has Reek kill Gelmarr Aggar and Fynir to hide his deceit. Kills Farlen himself knowing of Farlens innocence. Delivers the Ironbon of Moat Cailin to Ramsay, probably knowing the fate awaiting them. And you could also argue if he wasn`t so pathetic with his father he could have helped Robb win the war in the north and avoid the RW. How many more deaths is he responsible for and is there any scenario where he could possibly atone for all this?

[Nyrhex]

Does it matter? I never really got this whole "hey, if Bran speaks to Stannis through the tree, Theon can still get out of this because he did not kill the special Starks!", "he did not cause nearly as much damage as others" talk...

Fuck that. He murdered two kids for no other reason than he thought he would look weak for the near future if he admits to Bran and Rickon not being here, completely ignoring the possibility that they are right now on their way to Cassel and ready to retake the castle. Being interesting and connectable is beside the point. Fuck him.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Five... no, six hundred liters

[Petyr's Little Finger]

A fair amount , anyone he or his ironborn killed when they took Torrhen's Square and Winterfell, their blood is on his hands.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Lots. Kind of hoping that if the truth comes out and Stannis, or Rickon, or whoever has his life in his hands says;

"You are innocent of the murder of Brandon and Rickon Stark."

Sigh of relief from camp Greyjoy.

"However, for the murder of two millars boys I 'blahdeblahblahblah' do sentence you to die."

Part of that is because I also pity Theon and think he'd be better off that way, his death may be more useful than his life at some point, since the Northerners will be favourable to whoever grants it.

[Prince Davos Martell]

I would say only the two butcher boys and the people of Winterfell that he killed himself. However, I feel Theon has more than paid his price for what he did.

If you could choose, capital punishment or having what happened to Theon happen to you, what would you choose? So, he has more than served his time.

As for being guilty for joining the Ironborn instead for Robb, that is like saying the Blackfish is guilty for helping the Tullys istead of sticking in the Vale. The Starks may have raised Theon, but he is a Ironborn and a Greyjoy, and thus it is both right and just to help your family first. You have to remember that in Westeros Family is everything, for example even Stannis choose to help his brother over his King when it came to war, and what would Ned have done if Richard Stark had declared war on the Vale while he was being fostered there?

[TrueOrFalse]

I would say only the two butcher boys and the people of Winterfell that he killed himself. However, I feel Theon has more than paid his price for what he did.

If you could choose, capital punishment or having what happened to Theon happen to you, what would you choose? So, he has more than served his time.

As for being guilty for joining the Ironborn instead for Robb, that is like saying the Blackfish is guilty for helping the Tullys istead of sticking in the Vale. The Starks may have raised Theon, but he is a Ironborn and a Greyjoy, and thus it is both right and just to help your family first. You have to remember that in Westeros Family is everything, for example even Stannis choose to help his brother over his King when it came to war, and what would Ned have done if Richard Stark had declared war on the Vale while he was being fostered there?

I completely agree.

[INCBlackbird]

a person is responsible for their own actions and in the case of that person being in a position of power the actions of the people underneeth them. not for the actions of other people. if you're going to play the game of if character x hadn't done that than character y wouldn't/couldn't have done that than you can keep going back because maybe character if characer z hadn't done that, than character x wouldn't have done that, and you can keep going back and eventually you're probably gonna conclude that aegon the conqueror is responsible for the misdeeds of our current characters, it doesn't work that way. Theon is not responsible for the red wedding. equally Robb and Catelyn aren't responsible for the red wedding, Cat isn't responsible for starting the war, Ned isn't responsible for his own death, Robb isn't responsible for what Theon did in Winterfell and so on...

furthermore, I don't think you can blame Theon for moat Cailin, he was understandably terrified, it was him or them (and he had been at the receiving end before can you really blame him for being terrified and chosing himself?)

so what IS Theon responsible for : all deaths during the reaving of the stony shore, the people he killed himself, the deaths in Winterfell that he authorized (meaning what his men and Ramsay did on his orders) and all of that is quite a lot yes, but not nearly as much as the other warlords in the story (stannis, Robb, Daenerys, Tywin...)

[TrueOrFalse]

I don't get why people are so determined to blame the Red Wedding on characters other than the ones who actually made it happen. Some people blame Theon, others blame Catelyn, others blame Robb, others blame god knows who else. In fact, the only people responsible for the RW are the ones who actively planned it and participated in it.

I also don't think Theon should be blamed for the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

But yes, as for the Miller's Boys and the others who died at Winterfell, he is certainly responsible for those deaths.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

I reject the premise of this question. Every character whose ever held any amount of power in this series has "blood on their hands." In wartime the usual rules don't apply. How much death and destruction has Dany caused or overlooked (but wait, she saved a handful of girls from rape that one time so she's a saint (j/k, they'd already been raped). & Hizdar's dad was innocent for example. How about good ol Ned who during a chaotic rebellion? Don't even get me started on Tywin but he's generally respected and considered a good strong ruler. Stannis went against his King, killed innocents--he doesn't get a fraction of the sh*t Theon does. Stannis is just. The smallfolk suffer when the highlords play their game of thrones--that's one of the bigger messages GRRM gets at. How many unnamed civilians died during the US's pointless war in the middle east for example? but 'Murica! so it's ok I guess.

Two peasant boys are nominal in the bigger picture Theon was dealing with, and he still feel huge remorse and has still suffered for his wrongdoing more than anyone else in this book by far. The Ironborn at Moat Caitlin would have died regardless (besides they were Codds so NBD). If you mouth off like Farlen etc to an occupying force, well, you are too dumb to live basically or brought your death on yourself. Tough choices must be made. Some people are too naive to understand that. Some people have never been put in an impossible situation where no matter what they choose they will be vilified. When I read people advocating genocide of the entire Iron Islands or glee at the torture of Reek (or anyone for that matter) I am legitimately disturbed. I judge people who don't understand the point of the character Theon Greyjoy.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

All the deaths at the Stony Shore. A bunch of civilians at Winterfell.

About 1,000 dead, give or take. And a couple thousand rapes.

[INCBlackbird]

I reject the premise of this question. Every character whose ever held any amount of power in this series has "blood on their hands." In wartime the usual rules don't apply. How much death and destruction has Dany caused or overlooked (but wait, she saved a handful of girls from rape that one time so she's a saint (j/k, they'd already been raped). & Hizdar's dad was innocent for example. How about good ol Ned who during a chaotic rebellion? Don't even get me started on Tywin but he's generally respected and considered a good strong ruler. Stannis went against his King, killed innocents--he doesn't get a fraction of the sh*t Theon does. Stannis is just. The smallfolk suffer when the highlords play their game of thrones--that's one of the bigger messages GRRM gets at. How many unnamed civilians died during the US's pointless war in the middle east for example? but 'Murica! so it's ok I guess.

Two peasant boys are nominal in the bigger picture Theon was dealing with, and he still feel huge remorse and has still suffered for his wrongdoing more than anyone else in this book by far. The Ironborn at Moat Caitlin would have died regardless (besides they were Codds so NBD). If you mouth off like Farlen etc to an occupying force, well, you are too dumb to live basically or brought your death on yourself. Tough choices must be made. Some people are too naive to understand that. Some people have never been put in an impossible situation where no matter what they choose they will be vilified. When I read people advocating genocide of the entire Iron Islands or glee at the torture of Reek (or anyone for that matter) I am legitimately disturbed. I judge people who don't understand the point of the character Theon Greyjoy.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

I bow down to you o' wise one!

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

3 personal opinions

1 Absolving him of the `cover up` deaths at Winterfell is wrong. Those deaths are on his hands. How can killing/having people killed to spare your blushes of embarrassment be acceptable? Without Ramsay intervening would he have killed everyone to hide his deceit.

2 Forgiving him the Moat Cailin betrayal because they were going to die anyway, or it was them or more torture for him is wrong. Dudes only half a man now,seeing these pitiful but dutiful men should have instilled some pride in him.

3 Comparing him to Stannis, Dany, and similar characters is wrong. Stannis in his mind is the one true king. Dany in her mind is the true queen. Theon is some dude with `daddy don`t want me` issues. If you compare him to anyone it should be Tyrion. P.s Dany has released 100Ks from slavery and Stannis is helping to protect the wall while Theon has only contributed in keeping the rat population down

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Theon is royalty too. Not "some dude with daddy issues." Actually being royalty yet also being a hostage is what made him as conflicted as he is. You've clarified your misunderstanding of the character.

Saying he had the two boys killed and passed of as Barn&Rickon just to "spare embarrassment" is a VERY shallow analysis of that situation.

He does feel pride, for half an instant, & for the first time in a long time he is Theon again, when told how many time the Codds etc threw back assaults on the Moat. Did he murder Kenning or put him out of his misery?

I commend Dany's attempts to wipe out slavery. Some say this passion is born from her herself being a slave. Um, NO. She & her bro were on the lamb but lived pretty well, guested by wealthy patrons. Her bro made an arraigned marriage for her. Cat & Cersei & countless noble ladies before had the same done to them. Dany doesn't for one second give a bit of thought to any wrongs she might possibly have done along the way. "If I look back I am lost." She essentially thinks herself an infallible.

So Stannis believing he's the One True King absolves him of any wrongdoing? Ipso Facto Theon believes he's The Prince & heir to the Iron Islands. You can't pick and choose who to apply logic to.

Stannis & Dany have done good things. They also have blood on their hands, as per my original post.

A big point of Theon the character is forgiveness. With all his ADWD content, GRRM is essentially daring the reader not to feel sorry for the guy, thereby revealing the inherent cruelty or small heartedness of people whom can't.

Yea, Theon ate a rat rather than starve to death in the dungeons of the Dreadfort. I suppose Lady Hornwood's only contribution was keeping down the population of fingers on her hands?

I detest torture. It is an abomination and there is never justification.

[TrueOrFalse]

3 personal opinions

1 Absolving him of the `cover up` deaths at Winterfell is wrong. Those deaths are on his hands. How can killing/having people killed to spare your blushes of embarrassment be acceptable? Without Ramsay intervening would he have killed everyone to hide his deceit.

2 Forgiving him the Moat Cailin betrayal because they were going to die anyway, or it was them or more torture for him is wrong. Dudes only half a man now,seeing these pitiful but dutiful men should have instilled some pride in him.

3 Comparing him to Stannis, Dany, and similar characters is wrong. Stannis in his mind is the one true king. Dany in her mind is the true queen. Theon is some dude with `daddy don`t want me` issues. If you compare him to anyone it should be Tyrion. P.s Dany has released 100Ks from slavery and Stannis is helping to protect the wall while Theon has only contributed in keeping the rat population down

Quote from the Moat Cailin chapter:

"'I thought there would be more. We came at them three times, and three times they threw us back.'

We are Ironborn, he thought, with a sudden flash of pride, and for half a heartbeat he was a prince again, Lord Balon's son, the blood of Pyke."

[Cas Stark]

I can't really get behind the literalist interpretation that every battle commander has 'blood on his hands' as if every death is the same. It isn't. There are just wars. The idea that it's wrong to fight any war because people will die, so you should roll over for whomever, whatever keeps the peace, is, forgive me, deluded utopianism at it's worst.

Theon has blood on his hands however you want to look at it, if you absolve him of the Northern blood as part of the war, he is still guilty of the murder and betrayal of his own men, and the murder of two children to protect his rep. is not something that is considered any kind of battle death. If you, instead, absolve him of the IB deaths, he's then guilty of all the deaths of the Northerners, the people he knew and grew up with who he betrayed and led them to their deaths or imprisonment, as well as the miller's boys.

[Maid So Fair]

I can't really get behind the literalist interpretation that every battle commander has 'blood on his hands' as if every death is the same. It isn't. There are just wars. The idea that it's wrong to fight any war because people will die, so you should roll over for whomever, whatever keeps the peace, is, forgive me, deluded utopianism at it's worst.

Theon has blood on his hands however you want to look at it, if you absolve him of the Northern blood as part of the war, he is still guilty of the murder and betrayal of his own men, and the murder of two children to protect his rep. is not something that is considered any kind of battle death. If you, instead, absolve him of the IB deaths, he's then guilty of all the deaths of the Northerners, the people he knew and grew up with who he betrayed and led them to their deaths or imprisonment, as well as the miller's boys.

100% agree, especially with the bolded. Not all wars are created equal as there are some things worth fighting and dying for.

I think it's also ridiculous to compare people with very different positions in the power structure on an equal level. Sure, Theon might tehcnically be royalty, but unlike people like Dany, Robb or Stannis he has never been in charge of more than a minor raiding force. Of course they are going to come out worse if you just compare the absolute number of casualties. Better ask what causes these people are fighting for and if those are just, whether they take steps to prevent deaths of innocents, whther they target legitimate military targets, and also whether their other actions actually helped directly or indirectly prevent death of innocents. People die in every war. But a war to end slavery or defend your homeland is clearly not on the same level as a war to engage in some plunder and rape just because.

[Trigger Warning]

If he'd gotten Balon to support Robb you could just argue that he's responsible for all the deaths on the opposing side that would come from that so I'm not sure why that matters.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If he'd gotten Balon to support Robb you could just argue that he's responsible for all the deaths on the opposing side that would come from that so I'm not sure why that matters.

That's the pont where "war crimes" enters the equation. Case in point: the miller's boys.

[TallTyrion]

I wouldn't hold him responsible for what happened at Moat Caillin. It's not like he had any choice in the matter.