Oafkeeper Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Does he even have hands anymore? :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The blood of the northmen who died. They could've rallied behind Bran and Rickon after Robb's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmane Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Wut? Could you please elaborate? They led a revolt which caused probably the third biggest bloodshed in Westeros (the first two being the dance and Agon's conquest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 They led a revolt which caused probably the third biggest bloodshed in Westeros (the first two being the dance and Agon's conquest) Ok now I know that you are joking. They are to blame for defending themselves. And how Jon has more blood than Theon? Because of Hardhome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 You missed out the Blackfyre rebellions and the reign of Maegor. Also context matters. Robert revolted because otherwise he'd have been executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueOrFalse Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Does he even have hands anymore? :cool4: Was that supposed to be funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 They led a revolt which caused probably the third biggest bloodshed in Westeros (the first two being the dance and Agon's conquest) So you think the realm would have been better off ruled by a guy who was objectively insane, who had started roasting high lords for fun and who was more than willing to burn the capital city to the ground? You think that if Ned and Bob had gone like lambs to the slaughter that "peace" in Westeros would have been maintained? Or, isn't it more likely that when the ruler has become that unbalanced, it's only a matter of time before the bloodshed reaches beyond the court and goes "big" and instead of dozens and hundreds it becomes thousands and then tens of thousands? But then, as I said earlier, some wars are just and need to be fought. Some tyrants can only be removed by force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 So it`s ok to murder kids, have your own people killed, and betray everyone you know if you have a dissociative disorder cos people fighting wars cause death. And you deserve a cuddle if you`ve done all this but been tortured Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmane Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Ok now I know that you are joking. They are to blame for defending themselves. And how Jon has more blood than Theon? Because of Hardhome?I don't blame them. This is a medieval type society, "big killers" become the protagonists of songs in Westeros, it is a good thing to have blood on your hands (or mane). If Robert and Ned would have been "doves" they would have ran to Bravos of Quarth, or Yi-Ti.Jon held the Wall, he is responsible directly for the deaths of the wildlings slaughtered during the assault, and indirectly for the death of those killed by Stannis, the slavers, the WW-s etc. (again: heroes are "big killers"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't blame them. This is a medieval type society, "big killers" become the protagonists of songs in Westeros, it is a good thing to have blood on your hands (or mane). If Robert and Ned would have been "doves" they would have ran to Bravos of Quarth, or Yi-Ti. Sure because if Ned and Robert left Aerys wouldn't had turn to Benjen or Stannis and Renly orh wouldn't had started to exterminate everyone in order to find where they were hidding for example. :bang: :bang: :bang: Jon held the Wall, he is responsible directly for the deaths of the wildlings slaughtered during the assault, and indirectly for the death of those killed by Stannis, the slavers, the WW-s etc. (again: heroes are "big killers"). :bang: for f's sake what are you talking about? It's like saying the people who were at the resistance during WWII were killers for protecting their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynned Lannistark Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The point about Theon's crimes is that he didn't just kill people as part of a war effort. The stony shore perhaps may be excused that way. Especially as it was not his war, but Balon's. If it wasn't him it would be someone else.Moat Cailin is not his fault at all. He didn't kill anyone. There was nothing he could even have done to save them. He cannot be held responsible for Ramsay. The most he could have done is stay and fight bravely, but in his current state its not surprising he doesn't have the power to do it. In any case its not blood on his hands. Winterfell and the miller's boys are a different thing. He is personally responsible for their death , as part of his own very personal ambition and he did have a choice. Moreover, these are not a bunch of anonymous people. These are all people he knew, perhaps even loved. The boys are the children of a woman he slept with, whom he also kills. That makes him not only a bloody murder but a coward and a traitor. Add to that the fact that his taking Winterfell, which is completely his own initiative eventually leads to Robb's death - Robb which he claimed to love like a brother. While not remaining loyal to the Stark is hard to hold against him given that he was in fact their hostage, and that his father goes to war against them, coming up with his own initiative to destroy them is treacherous . Theon is no doubt a tragic figure, even before the ordeal he goes through with Ramsay, but that doesn't prevent his crimes from being crimes. Overall he is not a great guy. Doesn't mean we can't sympathize with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmane Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 It's like saying the people who were at the resistance during WWII were killers for protecting their country. Actually they were. The Nazis considered them criminals. Most of us considers them heroes.That's my point. Having blood on your hands can make you a villain, but also a hero it's just a matter of perspective. During the XIXth century for 5 generations my ancestors were light cavalry commanders. They were killers. They are my heroes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Actually they were. The Nazis considered them criminals. Most of us considers them heroes.That's my point. Having blood on your hands can make you a villain, but also a hero it's just a matter of perspective. During the XIXth century for 5 generations my ancestors were light cavalry commanders. They were killers. They are my heroes... Saying that they could had done something to avoid the bloodshed is like blaming them for protecting themselves. That is my point, you cannot blame someone for protecting himself and called him killer while saying that he could had avoid the deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Was that supposed to be funny? It made me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 The point about Theon's crimes is that he didn't just kill people as part of a war effort. The stony shore perhaps may be excused that way. Especially as it was not his war, but Balon's. If it wasn't him it would be someone else. Moat Cailin is not his fault at all. He didn't kill anyone. There was nothing he could even have done to save them. He cannot be held responsible for Ramsay. The most he could have done is stay and fight bravely, but in his current state its not surprising he doesn't have the power to do it. In any case its not blood on his hands. Winterfell and the miller's boys are a different thing. He is personally responsible for their death , as part of his own very personal ambition and he did have a choice. Moreover, these are not a bunch of anonymous people. These are all people he knew, perhaps even loved. The boys are the children of a woman he slept with, whom he also kills. That makes him not only a bloody murder but a coward and a traitor. Add to that the fact that his taking Winterfell, which is completely his own initiative eventually leads to Robb's death - Robb which he claimed to love like a brother. While not remaining loyal to the Stark is hard to hold against him given that he was in fact their hostage, and that his father goes to war against them, coming up with his own initiative to destroy them is treacherous . If i delivered people into the hands of a sadistic killer it would burn on my conscience and i would consider it blood on my hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynned Lannistark Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 If i delivered people into the hands of a sadistic killer it would burn on my conscience and i would consider it blood on my hands. Would they not die if he didn't get them to surrender? The one who is to blame for their murders is not Theon its Ramsay. Theon betrayed them though and for that he carries the blame whether they would have otherwise survived or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Does it matter? I never really got this whole "hey, if Bran speaks to Stannis through the tree, Theon can still get out of this because he did not kill the special Starks!", "he did not cause nearly as much damage as others" talk... Fuck that. He murdered two kids for no other reason than he thought he would look weak for the near future if he admits to Bran and Rickon not being here, completely ignoring the possibility that they are right now on their way to Cassel and ready to retake the castle. Being interesting and connectable is beside the point. Fuck him. Well said. Theon should not be excused for the miller's boys. If there was ever a sign of a true monster, it's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 So it`s ok to murder kids, have your own people killed, and betray everyone you know if you have a dissociative disorder cos people fighting wars cause death. And you deserve a cuddle if you`ve done all this but been tortured Didn't you know? "Everyone else was doing it!" is a perfectly legit excuse for Theon. No one else though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Somehow, I doubt threads like this would exist if he'd attacked the West (rape, loot and kill) like Robb wanted. @Howling Mad Treason against Joffrey perhaps. Robb was never his King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Theon gets a disproportionate sense of hatred among the fan base really. Tywin betrays the Targaryens, sacks King's Landing and kills two children and most people agree he's one of the more badass villains in the series.Theon betrays the Starks, sacks Winterfell and kills two children and a lot of people seem to think he deserved everything Ramsay did to him. Why's that? Well you can't betray the good guys right? If you do that you deserve to be tortured and flayed because doing bad things is bad. If he had betrayed Balon everyone would've loved him instead of thinking he's the scum of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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