Jaime Lannister: Anti-Hero, Villain, or Hero-in-the-Making?

[Lady Meliora]

So, backstory--I'm in the midst of a re-read of the series when I start thinking about Jaime, specifically in how he relates to his family (especially Cersei). While I'm sure we can all agree that Jaime is no saint--who is, in Westeros?--I feel that Jaime gets some unfair criticisms lobbed at him.

I'd argue that he's come a long way since GoT (especially since his capture by Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers), and we might finally be seeing the real Jaime Lannister now, rather than Tywin's Jaime or Cersei's Jaime, or even Tyrion's Jaime. The question then becomes "who is the real Jaime and what is he capable of?"

[TheLightning Lord]

I think he'll be hanged by Stoneheart

[Bacon Dragon the Crispy]

He is the King Maker.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jaime is very tricky, which is what makes him interesting. I think, despite everything, he's fundamentally a good person. I'd call him a better person than Tyrion.

I think Jaime is a case where the "songs" end up betraying the men and not just the women. Sansa isn't the only one who had to get slapped upside the head that perfect stories of chivalry and glory are just that, stories. "The boy had wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead." Jaime had visions of glory and adventure and then grew up and got, at face value, more or less what he wanted, but it was hollow. He was a Kingsguard but he was hated, and he had Cersei, the woman he loved, but she was married to someone else, he couldn't publicly acknowledge his kids and the kings he served were all unworthy in their own ways.

I think that sense of "Is this it?" is a big part of what jaded Jaime. I'm very hesitant to blame all of his issues on Cersei, because it takes away his own agency and responsibility. No one but Jaime is responsible for what he's done. But I think his relationship with Cersei is another case of a hollow victory: He got what he wanted but it ended up being poisonous.

I'm leery of saying Jaime has a "redemption" arc, because I think it's really who he was all along, buried beneath cynicism and disappointment. He's a very fascinating character and I'm curious to see what he does next, but most of all I hope he simply becomes his own man. Not just independent of Cersei, but also of his father's legacy and his own reputation.

[James Arryn]

I think he embodies conflict. I think he's one half romantic idealist, one half cynical pragmatist. I think everything he thinks, says and does reflects both aspects in conflict. Which is why lines like 'the things I do for love' aren't just throw-away self-rationalization, but actually reflective of a man at war with himself.

[Robb_Warged]

I have a feeling before the series ends all of Westeros will hear him roar

[OldGimletEye]

Jaime is very tricky, which is what makes him interesting. I think, despite everything, he's fundamentally a good person. I'd call him a better person than Tyrion.

I think Jaime is a case where the "songs" end up betraying the men and not just the women. Sansa isn't the only one who had to get slapped upside the head that perfect stories of chivalry and glory are just that, stories. "The boy had wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead." Jaime had visions of glory and adventure and then grew up and got, at face value, more or less what he wanted, but it was hollow. He was a Kingsguard but he was hated, and he had Cersei, the woman he loved, but she was married to someone else, he couldn't publicly acknowledge his kids and the kings he served were all unworthy in their own ways.

I think that sense of "Is this it?" is a big part of what jaded Jaime. I'm very hesitant to blame all of his issues on Cersei, because it takes away his own agency and responsibility. No one but Jaime is responsible for what he's done. But I think his relationship with Cersei is another case of a hollow victory: He got what he wanted but it ended up being poisonous.

I'm leery of saying Jaime has a "redemption" arc, because I think it's really who he was all along, buried beneath cynicism and disappointment. He's a very fascinating character and I'm curious to see what he does next, but most of all I hope he simply becomes his own man.

Excellent description of Jaime. Also, I think that Jaime, after seeing all the horrible stuff he's seen just tried to close his eyes and pretend that he didn't care.

[LordStoneheart]

I will probably only ever see him as the villain who pushed Bran out the window, killed Ned's men for no good reason, and his culpability in starting the WotFK. But he is complex and by the end I'm sure he'll have just enough "good" to the point where this question will never be answered.

I'm very hesitant to blame all of his issues on Cersei, because it takes away his own agency and responsibility. No one but Jaime is responsible for what he's done. But I think his relationship with Cersei is another case of a hollow victory: He got what he wanted but it ended up being poisonous.

Your whole post was well said, but I want to single this part out specifically as great. Cersei is a factor in Jaime's story, but his choices were his own.

[James Arryn]

Jaime is very tricky, which is what makes him interesting. I think, despite everything, he's fundamentally a good person. I'd call him a better person than Tyrion.

I think Jaime is a case where the "songs" end up betraying the men and not just the women. Sansa isn't the only one who had to get slapped upside the head that perfect stories of chivalry and glory are just that, stories. "The boy had wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead." Jaime had visions of glory and adventure and then grew up and got, at face value, more or less what he wanted, but it was hollow. He was a Kingsguard but he was hated, and he had Cersei, the woman he loved, but she was married to someone else, he couldn't publicly acknowledge his kids and the kings he served were all unworthy in their own ways.

I think that sense of "Is this it?" is a big part of what jaded Jaime. I'm very hesitant to blame all of his issues on Cersei, because it takes away his own agency and responsibility. No one but Jaime is responsible for what he's done. But I think his relationship with Cersei is another case of a hollow victory: He got what he wanted but it ended up being poisonous.

I'm leery of saying Jaime has a "redemption" arc, because I think it's really who he was all along, buried beneath cynicism and disappointment. He's a very fascinating character and I'm curious to see what he does next, but most of all I hope he simply becomes his own man.

Yes, I have wanted to make Jaime/Sansa comparisons before, but anything about Sansa automatically invokes a particular narrative for so many fans that I felt it unlikely to be able to remain on point, so never bothered. Cool to see others seeing the same things.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I consider him a villain during the first book. And some time before that. But not at SOS or when he killed Aerys. Not sure if I would call him either anti-hero or hero in the making at this point of the story either, I just don't see him as a villain. Rather he is another grey character with his own values and impulsive nature who will probably be the one to end Cersei. Though it is a question if we have a repeat of the threat of wildfire in Kings Landing if he will be able to stop it in time again.

[Cladinator]

He's all three and more. There's too much complexity to his character to simply say he's one thing.

[Snark_Tamer]

I loved Apple Martini's description. I think that captures a lot of it. But I ALSO think Jaime is a BRILLIANT case for a nature versus nurture argument. I thing GRRM has made some fairly clear case studies showing that people who grow up entitled end up being little shits and people who grow up humbled (Tyrion, because of his dwarf status, or "egg" who is squire for a hedge knight) or learning service (the Stark children) fare better. Cersei and Joffrey in particular, ALWAYS feel entitled--like the world should be handed to them. Jaime does, too, until he suffers a great loss (the hand that defines him) and he has to redefine himself. Fortunately for him he finds himself with the best possible example, Brienne, who shows him the world doesn't owe him anything. And that what is important, what SHOULD define him, is behaving with honor.

I DO happen to see this as a redemption arc--he knows what he was and what he valued, and he sees what that is worth in his newly developing values. His hand that held Cersei's foot is gone and now he can see her clearly. Her and the poison she represents.

[James Arryn]

I loved Apple Martini's description. I think that captures a lot of it. But I ALSO think Jaime is a BRILLIANT case for a nature versus nurture argument. I thing GRRM has made some fairly clear case studies showing that people who grow up entitled end up being little shits and people who grow up humbled (Tyrion, because of his dwarf status, or "egg" who is squire for a hedge knight) or learning service (the Stark children) fare better. Cersei and Joffrey in particular, ALWAYS feel entitled--like the world should be handed to them. Jaime does, too, until he suffers a great loss (the hand that defines him) and he has to redefine himself. Fortunately for him he finds himself with the best possible example, Brienne, who shows him the world doesn't owe him anything. And that what is important, what SHOULD define him, is behaving with honor.

I DO happen to see this as a redemption arc--he knows what he was and what he valued, and he sees what that is worth in his newly developing values. His hand that held Cersei's foot is gone and now he can see her clearly. Her and the poison she represents.

I don't really agree. Jaime's POV's are amongst the most self-critical we ever see. He not only criticizes himself, he's willing to see new evidence which undermines previous conclusions, and call himself on it. Just a simple example: when he watches Loras jousting and observes the faulty position of the previous excuse he'd given himself for losing to him. And consider his real-time self mockery as he deals with Edmure. Almost no POV's we read are capable of that kind of critical introspection.

[Snark_Tamer]

I don't really agree. Jaime's POV's are amongst the most self-critical we ever see. He not only criticizes himself, he's willing to see new evidence which undermines previous conclusions, and call himself on it. Just a simple example: when he watches Loras jousting and observes the faulty position of the previous excuse he'd given himself for losing to him. And consider his real-time self mockery as he deals with Edmure. Almost no POV's we read are capable of that kind of critical introspection.

Do you see Jaime of Game of Thrones capable of this though? I think his ability to question comes later. We just don't have his PoV until later. Maybe it is what he does to Bran that causes his ability to question himself--it is certainly a much less justifiable act than killing Aerys who was burning people alive.

I saw it much more though, in his own feelings of vulnerability--being imprisoned, then losing his hand.

[James Arryn]

Do you see Jaime of Game of Thrones capable of this though? I think his ability to question comes later. We just don't have his PoV until later. Maybe it is what he does to Bran that causes his ability to question himself--it is certainly a much less justifiable act than killing Aerys who was burning people alive.

I saw it much more though, in his own feelings of vulnerability--being imprisoned, then losing his hand.

Absolutely. I think Jaime's arc is very very oversold.

For example, it was PRE-ASOIAF that he killed Aerys. It was pre-ASOIAF that he didn't offer his justification for killing Aerys. It was pre-ASOIAF that he had a real problem with letting Aerys abuse his wife. It was pre-ASOIAF that he had a real problem with all the conflicting oaths and codes and hypocrisy. It was pre-ASOIAF that he sympathized with Tyrion and rejected Tywin. It was pre-ASOIAF that he was entirely monogamous to the one woman he loved, in spite of her being married. It was pre-ASOIAF that he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but saw himself becoming the Smilng Knight.

Think of the very first insight we get into his character. It's in the cage, talking to Cat. Still has his hand, but is absolutely the same person we see later on. We read it differently at the time because we assume the self-criticisms are ironic, but read them after seeng inside JAime's head and they come across much more nuanced.

[ChillyPolly]

The question then becomes "who is the real Jaime and what is he capable of?"

Lancel, Kettleback, Moonboy, and finally Cersei. And that will just be a start.

The real Jaime is a killer, with an itchy phantom sword hand, but one with a selfish narcissistic need to be loved and adored as some kind of "savior". He is destined to serve the demon god (Rh'llor) in exchange for a new hand, and destined to become its puppet and agent of destruction.

[The Wolves]

He's a villian and always will be the damage he's inflicted on others and his actions have been all around negative and selfish I can't see him as anything as a villian.

[Durran Durrandon]

Sometimes, a little boy sees something he shouldn't. Sometimes that thing he shouldn't have seen could result in the death of a man's bastard children, his sister and lover, and himself. Sometimes that child has to fall out of a window. It's not moral, but it is human. Jaime is deeply flawed, but he never does anything horrible unless he thinks he is acting in defense of his family.

One of my favorite scenes with Jaime is the dream where Rhaegar accuses him of failing to protect his children. Everyone hates Jaime for killing Aerys, but Jaime hates himself for falling to protect the queen and her children, yet no one ever calls him out on that. Jaime is morally flawed, but he is less morally flawed than the world he lived in, and that makes him heroic.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The redeemed fallen hero .

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think the answer to the OP title is yes to all three.

The way I see Jaimes arc is a decent young man with lofty dreams, who descends into cynicism (in his case manifested as "does not give any fucks,") and is shocked back into cruel reality when he loses his hand.

So, I think jaime basically was good when he was a kid. Honorable, faithful, caring. His life was pretty simple, though - he got to do what he loved (fighting) every day and be with people he loved and who loved him. He was safe, physically and mentally.

Once he joined Aerys kingsguard, and with other events like Tysha, that started to change. He stuck with some high ideals for awhile though, in wanting to protect rhaella, and in killing Aerys because he thought he had to in order to save KL. After that, things only got worse. Now jaime had to guard a despicable oaf who Hated and disrespected not just any woman like with Aerys and rhaella, but his own sister and the woman he loved at the time. Meanwhile cersei was beginning to change also (yes I think like jaime she did change for the worse, though she was never as pure as he was). She became spiteful, hateful, and acted to distance herself from him (for good reasons). This was frustrating obvipusly for jaime, and it seems like he became emotionally estranged from her. By the time we see them in got they are barely talking. When cersei wants to, jaime just pushes her into sex instead. Or, he just asks her who he can kill to get her to stop talking (like Saying he'd kill Arya) This is not the behavior of healthy love. There's no respect left, no companionship. Meanwhile there is no higher purpose either - what kind of a knight is he? He's committing treason on his king on a daily basis. He's not serving or protecting anyone.

I think by this point jaime is a pretty sucky person if we judge by te goodness of intentions and acts, which I tend to. He doesn't think twice about killing bran, Jory, or potentially. even Arya. I don't buy that with bran he thought he "had to do it" for cersei and co because it seems quite clear from his PoV that he wasn't thinking about really anything other than what he wants at that moment. Same with Jory. He's not making utilitarian judgements - he's impulsively doing what he thinks can get him back fucking his sister or fighting (the two things he still enjoys in life) as fast as possible.

That's not to say he's completely terrible. He seems capable of being a better person in his first SoS chapters and in cok. When he talks to cat I think he's being honest and sincere as far as that goes. You can see sort of a mixture of envy and grudging respect for Breinne and her ideals - jaime wishes he could be who he was and who she still is. Then hand gets rid of the bravado - suddenly he doesn't have the arrogance covering up the utter emptiness that his soul has become. And what's left? A person who long ago knew who he was and what he wanted, and that man was a good person - but now has become what everyone thinks he was. Just an arrogant jerk who did what he wants regardless of the consequences. And Brienne is conveniently right there to remind him that he can choose to be something else if he wishes to.

So, yeah. Jaimes arc is basically young hero to villain to anti-hero (though that's in process).