Why are the Deaths of Waymar Royce and Jon Snow so Familiar?

[Voxxer]

Because they both are Wights.

Both of their deaths are described with much in common. First, Waymar Royce's death in the prologue of A Game of Thrones:

"Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.".

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire as they touched the snow."

Shortly after, the young lord rises, almost the second he died, as a wight. Not a big deal, but huge when you look at how Jon Snow was killed towards the end of an ADWD.

"When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers."

"In the cold night the wound was smoking"..."Pain washed over him"..."He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..."

There more connections like blood welling between both of there fingers..Both characters hear a terrible scream also. Plus, the fact that there are two wights in the ice cells, which were just dug out. If the Others can break steel, wights can break iron shackles. Basically, I think Jon Snow is dead, but will rise again as a wight/Other. Or maybe the Others save Jon Snow after he is killed by the Night's Watch. Then given his Stark blood, he might become the Night King or some kind of leader. He could still March against Ramsey Snow, and take back Winterfell. He took take over all of Westeros if Dany and her dragons don't stop him. He might be sitting on The Iron Throne if nobody stops him and a potential wight army. Bloodraven's raven calls him king, because he is the Night's King.

Regardless, the Others have already attacked at East Watch by the sea(dead things in the water). In the first book the Old Bear talks of Others reported by East Watch when Tyrion visits. I could see the Others just going around the wall instead of trying to pass it. An Attack on Castle Black before the watch can counter attack makes sense. I wonder what power king's blood will give the others? Who knows. But this is just tinfoil at best. George likes to reuse a lot of the same sayings, big deal.There might lots of cases of only feeling the cold, and blood welling. But, it's nice to think that Jon meets up with his Unlce Benjen, The Old Bear, and his family members that have passed away. Sure they might be all zombies, but at least House Stark gets together one last time as wights. Bittersweet ending anybody? I would love to have an Other as PoV character. The one person trying to defend the realm against the others, becomes the new Night King. The Long Night is calling, and Jon Snow is the answer.

What made me a believer of this tinfoil was this=

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2ubm8u/spoilers_all_can_we_discuss_your_opinions_on_some/

J+0=NK you heard it here first folks. Jon Snow's Death Plus The Other's Attack equals the new Night King.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Oh, you think he's dead, do you?-GRRM

[Voxxer]

Oh, you think he's dead, do you?-GRRM

I love that Quote!

GRRM has told us two things. One is that there will be no new PoV Characters. This makes a lot of sense because the series is done building up after the slower AFoC and ADWD (great books, but a hard to follow up to favorite ASOS,). Its now the time to harvest the seeds that have been planted. The Second is that George has said the Others are finally going to be a bigger part of the story. How it that possible without a new PoV? If the Others kill every Human near them, and only Humans have been PoV characters, Then How will we get a new PoV character to show us the Others?

GRRM is gonna make an existing PoV character into a Other/wight. My Guess is Jon Snow, or show us via Bran. Not sure how well Bran would work. I honestly would love to hear how any other characters might work. If Jon Snow is dead, and does not become a wight. Then the only other option to me is to have Bran become this weird Overseer Of the Others.(most likely is that he is fighting with the CoTF, against the Others) I have a hard time seeing another Viewpoint to use for the Others. Also, I'm not denying all the textual evidence of Jon warging into Ghost. How Crazy would it be to keep getting Jon chapters as a wight, with the living Jon Snow in ghost? Sounds like crazy tinfoil but could happen. Then, how can he explain his weird dreams? Going to the crypts(like Bran), walking into the undead feast(like Theon), and the flaming sword(like Jamine)?

Can't wait for TWOW regardless of Jon Snow. I think it will be on the same level as ASOS.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1. Bran - Game
Ser Jaime throws him of a tower. Dead by impact.

2. Arya - Game
Yoren goes for her face with a blade, she fights him unsuccessfully. A cut throat, dead. Her last chapter in the book.

3. Bran - Clash
Theon knows where Bran and company are hiding. He will show no mercy. 200 pages before Bran is confirmed alive.

4. Jaime - Clash
Insults Cat repeatedly. Cat demands a sword. Last chapter in the book.

5. Davos - Clash
Drifts into the burning chain. Last chapter in the book.

6. Theon - Clash
Is on the losing end of the Battle of Winterfell turning into wholesale slaughter. Won't be seen for two books.

7. Jaime - Storm
Vargo Hoat sends a message to Lord Tywin. An arakh descends.

8. Cat - Storm
Red Wedding.. Well, she actually dies. Not the end of her story though.

9. Arya - Storm
The Hound's axe took her in the back of the head.

10. Davos - Storm
Stannis is ready to take his head off.

10a. Arya - Feast
Not dead, but blinded. Last chapter in the book.

11. Brienne - Feast
Hanged. Last chapter in the book.

12. Tyrion - Dance
Drowns in the Rhoyne.

13. Davos - Dance
Lord Manderly orders him executed. Was backed up in Feast.

14. Asha - Dance
Finishing blow with an axe.

15. Theon - Dance
Rowan promised to kill him after visiting "Abel".

16. Theon - Dance
Jumps down a 40-foot wall.

17. Jon - Dance
Gets caesared. Last chapter of the book.

So, 17 cases of a PoV character dying at the end of their chapter. Five of them at the end of the book. All presently alive and back in action, except Jon. Yet.

Nevertheless, the deaths are indeed somewhat similar - Ser Waymar Royce is basically a copy of Jon Snow, except without being a main character. From the idealism straight towards the damn old deserter planning mutiny.

[Jon Dovahkiin Snow]

Oops

[Cas Stark]

fire consumes

cold preserves

just sayin.

[Liver & onions]

Oh, you think he's dead, do you?-GRRM

He needs to write the god damn book instead of sprouting out spoilers every month.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The simple answer is that Martin is a writer with certain habitual turns of phrase that come comfortably and easy to him. And inadvertendly, he reused similar descriptive language in two scenes of violent stabbing in a snowy, cold environment. The fact that they were separated by about 5000 pages, and 20 years or so - made it an easy groove to fall into. Especially given the struggles he had experienced with more difficult aspects of the last book. Having the luxury of falling into a small bit of "comfort zone" writing probably came and went without notice.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He needs to write the god damn book instead of sprouting out spoilers every month.

To be fair, that quote is from a few years ago, pretty soon after ADWD was released. It's not new.

The fact that they were separated by about 5000 pages, and 20 years or so - made it an easy groove to fall into.

You mean 2 years?

[Free Northman Reborn]

To be fair, that quote is from a few years ago, pretty soon after ADWD was released. It's not new.

You mean 2 years?

No, I mean in the real world.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, I mean in the real world.

Ah. Might want to specify then; it comes off like you're talking about time in the story. At least to me.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ah. Might want to specify then; it comes off like you're talking about time in the story. At least to me.

My post was about Martin's writing process. Describing the page count between the two scenes, the turns of phrase he uses, the troubles he experienced with the Meerenees knot, etc. The characters in the story would have no idea about any "page count" etc. Seems kind of clear that I'm talking about Martin and his writing process, and the fact that as 20 years went by in the real world, he might be forgiven for using broadly similar language to describe two somewhat similar scenes in a very similar setting.

Anyway, hopefully this post will clarify it then.

[kimim]

OP: This is very cool. I thought Jon Snow's death reminded me of something, and yes, it was the death of Royce.

idk if Jon is truly dead; it'd be a very interesting pov if he returned as an Other. Whatever happens, I'm hoping that the Others aren't treated like the ultimate evil humans must unite to defeat. That would be so cliche.

[DreamSongs]

How are they familiar? Did you mean similar? Or that Jon's 'death' was somehow reminiscent of Waymar's?

[The Bastard of Walton]

Personally I don't believe that Jon has died or will die. That said, I agree something ties these two together & its the Cold.

Waymar feels the Cold that accompanies the Others & I think that's what Jon experiences as well. I see Mel's first chapter being her fleeing with a comatose Jon from the Wall, as the Others finally swarm upon it.

[Voxxer]

OP: This is very cool. I thought Jon Snow's death reminded me of something, and yes, it was the death of Royce.

idk if Jon is truly dead; it'd be a very interesting pov if he returned as an Other. Whatever happens, I'm hoping that the Others aren't treated like the ultimate evil humans must unite to defeat. That would be so cliche.

I think there's no way GRRM lets the Others become the Orcs from the Lord of Rings. Using a well-know PoV character and showing the invasion of the Others, from an Other PoV would be great storytelling.

[Voxxer]

How are they familiar? Did you mean similar? Or that Jon's 'death' was somehow reminiscent of Waymar's?

Yeah, they are both described as "only feeling the cold", and "blood welled between his fingers". They both hear a death like scream before they both die as well.

[Voxxer]

1. Bran - Game

Ser Jaime throws him of a tower. Dead by impact.

2. Arya - Game

Yoren goes for her face with a blade, she fights him unsuccessfully. A cut throat, dead. Her last chapter in the book.

3. Bran - Clash

Theon knows where Bran and company are hiding. He will show no mercy. 200 pages before Bran is confirmed alive.

4. Jaime - Clash

Insults Cat repeatedly. Cat demands a sword. Last chapter in the book.

5. Davos - Clash

Drifts into the burning chain. Last chapter in the book.

6. Theon - Clash

Is on the losing end of the Battle of Winterfell turning into wholesale slaughter. Won't be seen for two books.

7. Jaime - Storm

Vargo Hoat sends a message to Lord Tywin. An arakh descends.

8. Cat - Storm

Red Wedding.. Well, she actually dies. Not the end of her story though.

9. Arya - Storm

The Hound's axe took her in the back of the head.

10. Davos - Storm

Stannis is ready to take his head off.

10a. Arya - Feast

Not dead, but blinded. Last chapter in the book.

11. Brienne - Feast

Hanged. Last chapter in the book.

12. Tyrion - Dance

Drowns in the Rhoyne.

13. Davos - Dance

Lord Manderly orders him executed. Was backed up in Feast.

14. Asha - Dance

Finishing blow with an axe.

15. Theon - Dance

Rowan promised to kill him after visiting "Abel".

16. Theon - Dance

Jumps down a 40-foot wall.

17. Jon - Dance

Gets caesared. Last chapter of the book.

So, 17 cases of a PoV character dying at the end of their chapter. Five of them at the end of the book. All presently alive and back in action, except Jon. Yet.

Nevertheless, the deaths are indeed somewhat similar - Ser Waymar Royce is basically a copy of Jon Snow, except without being a main character. From the idealism straight towards the damn old deserter planning mutiny.

A very good point, I think we both agree that the Jon Snow character will be in TWOW. I just can't shake the feeling of a Other attack on the watch. It explains the craziness at the wall before Jon's death. I think the Other's Army is much closer then is implied in the books. Like I said in my OP, Others were reported nearby East Watch in the first book. The Old Bear just makes a passing comment about it, then Tyrion makes a jape and we all forget. Nobody understands the true threat of the Others before it's too late. The Lords are far too busy with the game of thrones as their people die and rise again with the Others.

[roxWolfox]

Because they both are Wights.

Both of their deaths are described with much in common. First, Waymar Royce's death in the prologue of A Game of Thrones:

"Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.".

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire as they touched the snow."

Shortly after, the young lord rises, almost the second he died, as a wight. Not a big deal, but huge when you look at how Jon Snow was killed towards the end of an ADWD.

"When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers."

"In the cold night the wound was smoking"..."Pain washed over him"..."He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..."

There more connections like blood welling between both of there fingers..Both characters hear a terrible scream also. Plus, the fact that there are two wights in the ice cells, which were just dug out. If the Others can break steel, wights can break iron shackles. Basically, I think Jon Snow is dead, but will rise again as a wight/Other. Or maybe the Others save Jon Snow after he is killed by the Night's Watch. Then given his Stark blood, he might become the Night King or some kind of leader. He could still March against Ramsey Snow, and take back Winterfell. He took take over all of Westeros if Dany and her dragons don't stop him. He might be sitting on The Iron Throne if nobody stops him and a potential wight army. Bloodraven's raven calls him king, because he is the Night's King.

Regardless, the Others have already attacked at East Watch by the sea(dead things in the water). In the first book the Old Bear talks of Others reported by East Watch when Tyrion visits. I could see the Others just going around the wall instead of trying to pass it. An Attack on Castle Black before the watch can counter attack makes sense. I wonder what power king's blood will give the others? Who knows. But this is just tinfoil at best. George likes to reuse a lot of the same sayings, big deal.There might lots of cases of only feeling the cold, and blood welling. But, it's nice to think that Jon meets up with his Unlce Benjen, The Old Bear, and his family members that have passed away. Sure they might be all zombies, but at least House Stark gets together one last time as wights. Bittersweet ending anybody? I would love to have an Other as PoV character. The one person trying to defend the realm against the others, becomes the new Night King. The Long Night is calling, and Jon Snow is the answer.

What made me a believer of this tinfoil was this=

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2ubm8u/spoilers_all_can_we_discuss_your_opinions_on_some/

J+0=NK you heard it here first folks. Jon Snow's Death Plus The Other's Attack equals the new Night King.

I'm still reading the reddit source, but wanted to comment anyways (before I lose power).

This is pretty crackpotty, but I was entertained, so you get a *like* from me. :D Especially so because of the bolded part. xD

[Winter Blues]

I'm still hesitant to believe the Others are coming across the Wall. I think they are either A) underneath the wall in a tunnel created by Brandon the Builder that leads to the crypts of Winterfell (lead there by Benjen Stark), or B) "Dead things in the water"--traveling by water and will land somewhere near the Vale.

I'm stuck on option B because I just can't see the entire North wiped out during an invasion by the Others, and the North is so vast, by the time the Others reach the Neck, the southern region would have been well warned. Nope. They strike the heart of the realm and Jon has enough time to pull himself back together and be the Last Hero that was Promised by a blue rose, or whatever.