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Fate of Saera


Jaak

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So, what role did she play?



By the tourney of 50th accession anniversary of Jaehaerys, in 98:


Daella had died


Maegelle had died, in 96


Viserra probably had died


Barth would die in 99


Gael would die in 99.



Did Saera flee before or after the tourney of 98?


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During the 98 tournament, all living children of Alysanne expressly attended. If Saera had fled then Jaehaerys and Alysanne had to receive back a runaway septa - but then why would she need to go back over narrow seas?



Thus the logical explanation would be that both the scandals of Saera and Gael happened after the tournament, in close succession in 98-99.



Now, what WAS she doing in Lys? In Volantis, she was owner of a brothel. But before this, in Lys?



And when did she move from Lys to Volantis?



In 107, the relations of Three Whores with Westeros soured, thanks to her nephew Daemon. Was it prudent for a Targaryen princess, even a runaway, to stay in Lys while her nephew attacked?



Now, there was another Targaryen teenage princess who was urged to run away, about 15 years after Saera. In 114, there is that 17 year old Rhaenyra.



Was her grandaunt Saera an obvious success as a brothel owner by that time?


Ser Criston was offering to earn a living as a sellsword. Would he have been a better breadwinner than Saera was?


And Rhaenyra had a dragon. She could not fly off to sunset, because there was Westeros and the endless Sunset Sea, and Volantis was towards sunrise. But there were no dragons in Essos at the time. Ser Criston was a competent sellsword, but Essos was full of sellsword companies. Targaryen princesses are usually pretty when young, but Lys and Volantis are most Valyrian cities - that violet-blonde is pretty but nowhere so rare in Lys and Volantis as in Westeros.



Not only does Essos have no dragons, Essos also has no ravens. Mail from one Whore to another needs to go by ship (because Tyrosh and Lys are on different islands). Mail between Volantis and the three subject towns can go by Rhoyne (as Shy Maid did) or along the shore road (as Jorah would do with Tyrion for luggage) but either way is slow.



Suppose Rhaenyra flew Syrax to Volantis... She and Syrax had the experience and training to race all the way between King´s Landing and Dragonstone. Now, she unlike ser Criston, or even Rhaenys or Laena, was not particularly warlike. But she could have contracted to carry mail between Volantis and Selhorys, and undertake regular (allowing for weather/visibility) aerial reconnaissance patrols - up Rhoyne and the shores both side to detect approaches of any Dothraki or Free Companies, around Summer Sea to spot approaching ships. With clear agreement to stay above bowshot, and fly to warn Volantis rather than get herself killed in engaging anyone while alone.



How would the salary of Rhaenyra at that job compare with what ser Criston could have earned with his sword on ground? With the profits of Saera´s brothel?



If Saera had her own dragon, would she earn more money riding her dragon with mails from Lys, or riding men in Lys? (As established before, her cunt was not unique, but her dragon was.)



Saera and Gael were 12th and 13th children of 13 of Alysanne, born in 36. Therefore, it would make sense if Saera was borne by Alysanne age around 40 - mid to late 70s. Around the age of Rhaenys and Viserys.



A few years later, a Targaryen princess did, um, fly off to sunrise to great chagrin of Iron Throne. Daemon and Laena flew the two most dangerous dragons to a tour of Norvos and Qohor... and then to Volantis.



In 115, Daemon was 34, Laena 22... and their aunty and grandaunty Saera about 40.



Were they reunited with her?



Of course, a slightly embarrassing point, like Petyr had in hosting Eddard and Catelyn in his brothel: would hospitality demand that Saera assure Daemon the services of her enterprise? Seeing how he was newly married and bringing his beloved wife and Saera´s own grandniece along to the brothel?


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Jaak,



if you interpret the sentence in TWoIaF that all the surviving children, grandchildren and the great-granddaughter of Jaehaerys attended the anniversary tourney in the sense that this has to mean that Saera has to have been there, you are mistaken, I think. But even if you want to build a case for her being there, it is much more likely that she was simply dead by that time.



Both Maegelle and Saera would have been given to the Faith at a very early age - possibly when they were 7-11 or so - and thus Saera would have had quite some time to spend in Lys and Volantis before she died in her 30s.



If Saera had come to KL for the anniversary, Jaehaerys most likely would not have missed her/longed for her when he grew delirious shortly before his death. The fact that he clearly wanted to see her again does not mean that she was still alive at that point, either, as a senile Jaehaerys would not necessarily have remembered that she was dead if somebody had told him.



The whole sentence about the anniversary tourney is problematic as it seems to specify that only Rhaenyra was there, as she most likely is the great-granddaughter mentioned therein, not all the known great-grandchildren Jaehaerys and Alysanne had at this point - which would be Laena, Laenor, and Rhaenyra. Considering that Rhaenys, Laena, and possibly Laena as well, were dragonriders, the huge amounts of dragons supposedly present at KL for tourney could not have been there.



More importantly, it mentions that all the surviving grandchildren were there as well, which would then include Princess Rhaenys - but if she was there, she most likely would also have brought her children with her. If the infant Rhaenyra (b. 97) can be there, so can Laena and Laenor.



It is confirmed that Princess Daella was already dead (d. 82 AC), as was Prince Aemon (d. 92 AC), and Septa Maegelle (d. 96 AC). Princess Viserra was most likely dead as well, as she seems to have died in her teens (she was only betrothed, not yet married to Lord Manderly, suggesting that she cannot have been very old at the time of her death), although as a woman grown (i.e. as a 16-19-year-old), since she is counted among the children who lived to adulthood.



We don't know when Princess Alyssa died, but I suspect she may have died in childbirth when she gave birth to the mysterious Prince Aegon, Viserys and Daemon's younger brother. If that's the case, she would have died in the 80s, I think. Nothing suggests that Alyssa was still around during Viserys' reign.



The children traveling to KL for the tourney would include Prince Baelon - coming with Viserys, Aemma, and possibly Prince Aegon from Dragonstone, I think (Daemon would have come with Rhea Royce from Runestone) -, and Archmaester Vaegon - who could have easily lived into Viserys' reign without us knowing as he was serving at Oldtown.



Princess Gael apparently lived at court.


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  • 3 weeks later...

Both Maegelle and Saera would have been given to the Faith at a very early age - possibly when they were 7-11 or so

Where is this implied?

- and thus Saera would have had quite some time to spend in Lys and Volantis before she died in her 30s.

Meaning if she died by 98, she must have been born before 68. Also meaning Alysanne must have had 12 children before she was 32, and then only one (Gael) afterwards.

If Saera had come to KL for the anniversary, Jaehaerys most likely would not have missed her/longed for her when he grew delirious shortly before his death. The fact that he clearly wanted to see her again does not mean that she was still alive at that point, either, as a senile Jaehaerys would not necessarily have remembered that she was dead if somebody had told him.

The whole sentence about the anniversary tourney is problematic as it seems to specify that only Rhaenyra was there, as she most likely is the great-granddaughter mentioned therein, not all the known great-grandchildren Jaehaerys and Alysanne had at this point - which would be Laena, Laenor, and Rhaenyra. Considering that Rhaenys, Laena, and possibly Laena as well, were dragonriders, the huge amounts of dragons supposedly present at KL for tourney could not have been there.

Laena was 4. And her dragon would be Vhagar. Note that Vhagar could have attended the tourney of 98 if it then had a different rider - one who died before Laena was attested as Vhagar´s rider in 106.

More importantly, it mentions that all the surviving grandchildren were there as well, which would then include Princess Rhaenys - but if she was there, she most likely would also have brought her children with her. If the infant Rhaenyra (b. 97) can be there, so can Laena and Laenor.

Yes, but Rhaenyra might or might not have been normally resident at Red Keep - no travel for her in that case. Laenor and Laena were normally resident at Driftmark - at 4 and 5, the toddlers would have made for wriggly luggage on Meleys´ back and yet have been old enough to have been weaned and left with nannies. Rickon did not travel with Eddard either.

The children traveling to KL for the tourney would include Prince Baelon - coming with Viserys, Aemma, and possibly Prince Aegon from Dragonstone, I think

Looking at the movements of Rhaenyra et cetera, it is not clear how consistently the princes and princess of Dragonstone actually reside there. Baelon certainly did not reside on Dragonstone when called to serve as Hand.

On the other hand, Corlys had his owned powerbase on Driftmark and probably did reside there, rather than e. g. take posting as Master of Ships.

Princess Viserra was most likely dead as well, as she seems to have died in her teens (she was only betrothed, not yet married to Lord Manderly, suggesting that she cannot have been very old at the time of her death), although as a woman grown (i.e. as a 16-19-year-old), since she is counted among the children who lived to adulthood.

Princess Gael apparently lived at court.

Yes. In 98, Alysanne was 62. Her 13th and youngest child was old enough to get knocked up next year, when Alysanne was 63... but apparently young enough to not have been disposed of in any way, such as being betrothed to any groom, or given to Faith. Perfectly consistent with Gael having been in her late teens, the 13th and last child of a mother in her early 40s.

But in view of her 12 elder siblings, it would have been odd for Alysanne to have 12 children before she was 32, then none for 10+ years, then 13th. My inference is that Saera was only a few years older than Gael, born when Alysanne was in her late 30s or early 40s, and by 98 was in her early 20s.

I further suggest that Saera might have been given to Faith in her late teens or early twenties, perhaps even after Maegelle died, or after betrothals considered for Saera did not work, so only shortly before the 98 tourney.

Septas can attend tournaments, like Septa Mordane did with her charges. So, my suggestion is that Saera was, in 98, a septa/novice visiting her family, and fled soon afterwards.

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Jaak,



Saera/Maegelle and the Faith:



We know at which age Daeron II sent Aemon to the Citadel. I'm pretty sure the age in which you can become a page/squire would also be the age in which you can begin your studies at the Citadel or join an order of the Faith as a novice. Surely Saera would not have been forced to join the Faith at an age it which it became apparent that she was not willing to become a septa.



Jaehaerys and Alysanne seem to have married in 50 AC, when Jaehaerys came of age, and it is entirely possible that they consummated their marriage at once, and tried to have children as soon as possible. The Iron Throne needed heirs. In fact, with their firstborn, Aegon, not living to adult age, we could assume that Alysanne had a premature birth there, or something like that, causing Aegon's early death.



I'd not be surprised if all of Alysanne's thirteen children had been born by the year 65 or 66 AC, by the way. Gael is described as a simple girl, which could easily mean that she was still unmarried in her thirties.



But then, it is just as likely that Saera was still alive but not invited to the anniversary or unwilling to come. Jaehaerys may still have loved her - or realized that he did during his last years - but she was a princess turned whore. Not exactly somebody you invite to a royal anniversary. She was very much the black sheep of the Targaryen family.



Laenor supposedly is seven years old in 101 AC, which means that he is born in 94 AC, and Laena, one year his elder, is born in 93 AC. Thus Laena would be five years old in 98 AC, not four.



Not to mention that whole families would not exactly travel on dragonback. Rhaenys would have arrived on Meleys, whereas Corlys would have traveled with the children by ship - just as Laena later traveled by ship with the twins, while Daemon took the dragons across the Narrow Sea.



If Baelon rode Vhagar then Laena may have had her own hatchling who met an unfortunate end before she claimed Vhagar, as Laenor, Rhaenys' second child, also got his own hatchling.



In 98 AC Septon Barth was still alive and serving as Hand, which means that Prince Baelon and his family - Alyssa, if still alive, Viserys and Aemma (Daemon was in the Vale), and Aegon, if he was still alive - most likely resided on Dragonstone to show the whole Realm that he and not Princess Rhaenys was the chosen heir of Jaehaerys I. Baelon thus would only have moved to KL when he was named Hand in 100 AC.



By the way, we don't know when Corlys came into his own lordship - it is stated when his grandfather died, possibly the Daemon Velaryon during Maegor's reign. If this occurred after 92 AC, then Rhaenys and Corlys may have resided with their father Aemon on Dragonstone, and were forced to leave the island after Jaehaerys had named Baelon Prince of Dragonstone. That would have been quite a humiliation. Corlys may also have been Master of Ships until Jaehaerys decided to pass over Rhaenys. We know that the office of Master of Ships was almost hereditary at times, and I guess the times it was held by other houses was essentially only during the time in which there was rift between KL and Driftmark - essentially only during the later reign of Jaehaerys I and during Viserys' whole reign. Alyn Velaryon seems to have served as Master of Ships his whole life (possibly holding other offices as well - I could see him as Hand under Aegon III before Viserys was appointed as well as under Viserys II) beginning during the Regency.


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Jaeherys and Alyasanne had to endure a great deal of tragedy.

I suspect Saera was a permanent embarrassment to the dynasty. Many of her prostitutes would have been slaves, which would have gone down very badly at home. I imagine she would have made a fortune in Volantis, though. I wonder what the Old Blood of the city made of her.

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but she was a princess turned whore. Not exactly somebody you invite to a royal anniversary.

Is it totally naive of me to imagine that a woman could have ended up running a whore-house without first serving as a whore?

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Well, usually it is part of the trait to first serve. In Saera's case we have no idea at which age she run away, what she did in Lys before she went to Volantis, but considering that she would have essentially been without coin in her motherhouse, I imagine she had little choice but to sell herself, possibly as early as to buy her passage to Lys.



I could see her as becoming the mistress/concubine of some Lysene nobleman before she moved to Volantis. We don't know enough about Volantene prostitution to determine whether a prostitute could rise through the ranks to own a brothel, or whether whores were always chattel. If the latter is the case then I'd assume that Saera made a small fortune in Lys, traveled to Volantis and set up a brothel there.


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Saera/Maegelle and the Faith:

We know at which age Daeron II sent Aemon to the Citadel. I'm pretty sure the age in which you can become a page/squire would also be the age in which you can begin your studies at the Citadel or join an order of the Faith as a novice.

And Osric Stark must have been a sworn brother of Watch by the age of 10 that he was elected to Lord Commander. Yes. But the bulk of Jon´s brother recruits are a few years older than him - late teens against 15 of Samwell and Jon. Yoren´s band is mostly older than Arya, too.

Surely Saera would not have been forced to join the Faith at an age it which it became apparent that she was not willing to become a septa.

What´s better - force into Faith a 10 year girl who becomes unwilling to follow her years of training after her hormones kick in at puberty, or send to Faith a girl who is well past puberty and for whom a good marriage could not be found? A teenage girl who immediately objects to Faith is a bad choice. A teenage girl who finds that she dislikes being a septa after a few years of experience... harder to avoid.

But then, it is just as likely that Saera was still alive but not invited to the anniversary or unwilling to come. Jaehaerys may still have loved her - or realized that he did during his last years - but she was a princess turned whore. Not exactly somebody you invite to a royal anniversary. She was very much the black sheep of the Targaryen family.

But still expressly, all living children attended. My preferred theory is still that Saera was not yet the black dragon - she was a novice septa in good standing on a visit, and eloped (soon) after the anniversary.
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I doubt that people joined the NW as early as the Faith or the Citadel, at least not in the last centuries. Back when becoming a black brother was still an honorable calling in all the Seven Kingdoms, I could see knights and young noblemen taking their young squires with them or nobles handing their third and fourth sons to the NW as Jaehaerys I did with the Faith and the Citadel, but not in the present-day society.



Osric Stark's election clearly was exceptional - him joining the NW at this age (or shortly before that) clearly was during a time in which the Watch still had the resources necessary to raise and train young male children.



Alysanne Targaryen was born in 36 AC, which means she was around 64 years old when she died. For Saera or Gael being in their mid-teens in 98 AC we would have to assume that she gave birth in her late forties, perhaps even around 50. That makes little sense. Not to mention that Jaehaerys' younger children would have made great spouses for either Rhaenys (Vaegon) or Viserys (Saera). That this does was apparently not considered could be a sign that they were much older.



You have to keep in mind that 'give sb. to the Faith' essentially means the same as joining a real world religious order or monastery. In medieval times you usually did both in your youth, as you were raised as a novice in the order before you eventually spoke your vows. Maegelle went through with her vows, Saera most likely was raised in a motherhouse but ran away before she forced to speak her vows. I'm also not sure if her hormones caused the problem or rather the fact that she was supposed to live the boring life of a septa. I'm pretty sure a Targaryen prince turned septa could have had all the fun she wanted to behind the walls of her septry - especially if she should eventually join the Most Devout (which should be a given if you are a member of the royal family).



The vibe I get from TRP is that Saera was away for quite some time already, either already dead, or lost to Jaehaerys. It makes little sense for him to miss her that much if he has just last seen her in 98 AC. And whether 'all living children attended' means exactly that literally is difficult to assess. The space is limited, and listing all the Targaryens attending by name, or giving a explanations why some of those still living did not attend would only sidetrack the story.


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I doubt that people joined the NW as early as the Faith or the Citadel, at least not in the last centuries. Back when becoming a black brother was still an honorable calling in all the Seven Kingdoms, I could see knights and young noblemen taking their young squires with them or nobles handing their third and fourth sons to the NW as Jaehaerys I did with the Faith and the Citadel, but not in the present-day society.

Osric Stark's election clearly was exceptional - him joining the NW at this age (or shortly before that) clearly was during a time in which the Watch still had the resources necessary to raise and train young male children.

But is joining Faith later in any way rare? Elder Brother certainly was an adult and a soldier before becoming a broken man and a septon.

Alysanne Targaryen was born in 36 AC, which means she was around 64 years old when she died. For Saera or Gael being in their mid-teens in 98 AC we would have to assume that she gave birth in her late forties, perhaps even around 50. That makes little sense.

No, not mid-teens. I imagine late teens/early twenties. Like Arianne, or Edmure. After some marriage negotiations, in their mid-teens, have not produced a satisfying outcome.

Which would mean Alysanne bore Saera and Gael in her late thirties/early forties.

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Also: septons and septas need not be completely devoid of coin. Compare the Night Watch - wellborn ser Waymar Royce is supplied with luxurious black outfit. But more importantly, a lot of brethren can somehow afford to dig for treasure at Mole´s Town. In the Citadel, again we have Lazy Leo Tyrell who is well supplied with coin. And in Faith, there is that victorious candidate for High Septon whom Sparrows dragged out of whorehouse.



But I agree that the cash Saera had on hand would not have covered long period of residence in Essos.



Was her body for sale by retail, or in bulk? Lady Lynesse Hightower did find a bulk purchaser, one Tregar Ormollen, who is still supporting her.



Yet if Lynesse has always been faithful to one man (first Jorah, then Tregar) then even as a well-off investor after Tregar has died and left her with some bequest or savings from her gifts/earnings, would she have the familiarity with the field needed to make the investment in a brothel a safe and profitable one? Petyr certainly invests in brothels, inter alia, and has never sold his body to men (selling it to Lysa Tully is a slightly different matter) but then again, it is just one field in his big portfolio.


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The phrasing in the book is that both Maegelle and Saera were given to the Faith. They did not join it of their own free will, which means they were not yet women grown when their parents gave them to the Faith. Jaehaerys and Alysanne could not really have forced their adult children to take religious vows (and would most likely not have done that).



More importantly, we know that Saera was still a novice when she ran away, which should indicate that she was still in her early teens at this time. I imagine that a princess of the blood like Rhaena who joined the Faith as an adult (although we don't actually know when she took her vows - it could have been while she was still in the Maidenvault, as she was apparently emulating Baelor) would not spend much time as a novice.



But Saera was still a novice when she escaped - this means she was still rather young. I could see her escaping at 12-13 years. I imagine she was always a forceful woman. But there is no reason to believe that a child controlled any funds or owned any money. Saera would have jumped on a ship and made the same sort of career in Lys as Lynesse Hightower or the Black Swan did, too. Although I guess as a Targaryen princess she was some sort of a star from the start. I imagine Saera made a fortune there, and then moved on to Volantis to live out her life there as a wealthy woman bossing slaves around.



My personal head image seems her living well into the reign of Viserys - and Vaegon, too, by the way - growing fat, and choking to death during a fit of laughter when she learns about the outbreak of the Dance.


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The vibe I get from TRP is that Saera was away for quite some time already, either already dead, or lost to Jaehaerys. It makes little sense for him to miss her that much if he has just last seen her in 98 AC.

It makes a lot of sense. Maegelle also was available to reconcile Jaehaerys and Alysanne. If the escape of Saera hurt Jaehaerys a lot, it would make sense of him to hope dor the return of the prodigal daughter.

And whether 'all living children attended' means exactly that literally is difficult to assess. The space is limited, and listing all the Targaryens attending by name, or giving a explanations why some of those still living did not attend would only sidetrack the story.

Yes, but "most" rather than "all" adds just one letter. And the writer could have deleted the phrase altogether rather than tell a specific untruth.
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