Ser Barristan and the Sucession Crisis

[Garbad]

I know you all remember this, but a recap:

Book 1, King Bobby is boared. Ned is summoned into the throne room, hands Ser Barristan the king's last wishes...Cersei tears it up, orders Ser Barristan to take Ned. He hesitates. Ned's men arm, the watch stabs them in the back. The hound is mentioned cutting down men, but nothing is said about Ser B. Seconds later, Lannister men spread out in the keep, killing northmen, including old women, girls, and presumably many other unarmed men (stewards, etc). Later, in the dungeons, Ned curses himself, the lannisters AND Ser Barristan in his mind. Shortly after, King Joff expels Ser B from the Kingsgaurd because he failed to protect the king. Ser B ends up in Pentos.

So here's my question...what exactly did Ser B do during the crisis. He saw with his own eyes that Ned was to be Protector of the Realm. He saw Cersei disregard that. He saw Lannister men murder Stark men, and worse, he saw them go after his household -- including women, children, and old people -- and slaughter them. Yet he still served, seemingly unconcerned. Only Joff humiliating him turned him against the Lannisters.

What was he thinking? Is his honor a sham? For all his "no killing innocents" in Mereen, didn't he stand by and watch that not once, but twice in King's Landing?

[Reynestorm]

He did exactly that. Nothing.

But that was what Ned thought the problem was. Ned thought he could trust Barristan like he could everyone in King's Landing. Barristan, while knowing Ned was the right one in the scenario, couldn't make himself betray the king, as he swore to always do.

When Joffrey made him resign though, I suppose that's when he "saw the light" and error of his ways

[Nyrhex]

What was he thinking? Is his honor a sham? For all his "no killing innocents" in Mereen, didn't he stand by and watch that not once, but twice in King's Landing?

I assume he thought the same as when he stood and watched Aerys murder lords and their sons and thier retainers without trial, when he stood and watched Aerys burn Rickard Stark while tied up as a "trial by combat" while his son is choking to death on a wet cord too short from a sword to free himself, as he stood and watched Aerys order the death of 200 of Stark's retinue, and the apparently frequent rapes of the queen.

The same thing that Gerold Hightower feels the need to go and remind Jaime...

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.

In the end, Barristan realy is all that Renly said he is, a Kingsguard that lives for the glory of the job, not the ideals of a knight. The only thing I can think of when I re-read his actions following the death of Robert, I can only come to one conclusion regarding Barristan...

[Bloodmane]

He froze, as suited to an old man, the leader of an anachronistical military organization. He deserved what was offered him: a tower to die in and men to burry him. He could fight Ned, or fight beside him, there would be honor in both choices. I am sure he would agree, that explains his penitence-walk to the end of the world serving to fat ex-gladiator.

[AdmiralKyrd]

WoT Garbad?

In a nutshell, Ser Barristan is played up as being a chivalrous knight, but if you look at his actual actions, including several of his thoughts to Dany in ADWD. Only after Aerys II reign does he believe there was any problem with his rule. He's essentially an Aerys II apologist who just follows orders.

"Your father always had a little madness in him, I now believe." (ASOS - Barristan to Dany)

"...he was charming and generous as well, so his lapses were forgiven." (ASOS - Barristan on Aerys II)

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.

this. It generally seems to be the KG motto

[pettes]

I believe that is just barristan trying to hide some of the truth from a small child

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

This is part of why I think the myth of Honorable Barristan Selmy is way overstated.

Guy goes to the Trident with two other Kingsguard and is the only one to survive. Rather than go down fighting, he not only accepts aid from the "usurper" but eventually joins the usurper's Kingsguard as its lord commander. Contrast this to three guys at the Tower of Joy who are implicitly offered safe passage and who aren't injured, and instead go down fighting. Or Gyles Belgrave, who had the option of going to the Wall but chose execution so he wouldn't outlive Aegon II.

Barristan then, as you say, serves Robert. He then stands by while Robert's decree is shredded and Ned's people are slaughtered, and serves Joffrey until, and only until, Joffrey dismisses him. He then suddenly decides, eureka, the Targaryens are the rightful house after all. So he goes to aid Dany, despite Dany and Viserys having been in Essos the entire time, in fairly easy reach of anyone who might have decided to help them in any way. Barristan is, in hindsight, able to identify signs of madness in young Viserys (despite Dany's own recollection of Viserys' madness being a process over time), yet was apparently unable to see Joffrey the cat-gutting sociopath in front of him the whole time. Oh and I should also mention that he tells Joffrey that Stannis will take the throne from him, and then lies by omission to Dany when she asks him point-blank what he told Joffrey when he left.

I don't even dislike Barristan as a person, really. I think he's a fundamentally decent guy. But he still shifts allegiances and attitudes when it's expedient.

[Lord Lannister]

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.

That always felt like a huge cop out to me. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, that's pretty much the same defense most of the people at Nuremburg used, that they were only following orders. The hypocrisy of an order that prides itself on honor and devotion turning a blind eye and even enabling in some cases the most henious of crimes is really beyond me.

Barristan "seeing the light" only after he was fired is pretty meaningless really. I'm sure a lot of people "see the light" when the handcuffs are thrown on them and not a moment before.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The hypocrisy of an order that prides itself on honor and devotion turning a blind eye and even enabling in some cases the most henious of crimes is really beyond me.

This is why, in a normative sense, the entire Kingsguard as an institution is a joke. Ideally, knights who actually follow chivalry protect and stand up for the weak, powerless, disenfranchised, etc. Yet in Westeros, the seven "greatest" knights in the country exist to serve a family of the most powerful people in the country, and by serving them, the Kingsguard is complicit in said family's subjugation of the weak and powerless, the people true knights are supposed to defend.

[Lee-Sensei]

@Apple Martini "Barristan then, as you say, serves Robert. He's present at the meeting where Dany's assassination is discussed, and does not speak up in Ned's defense when Ned speaks against it."

Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Apple Martini "Barristan then, as you say, serves Robert. He's present at the meeting where Dany's assassination is discussed, and does not speak up in Ned's defense when Ned speaks against it."

Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."

Fair enough. I was looking through the scene and didn't see it. Obviously didn't look hard enough.

I still stand by my overall point: The myth of Honorable Barristan is just that, a myth.

[Blackfish Tully]

This is part of why I think the myth of Honorable Barristan Selmy is way overstated.

Guy goes to the Trident with two other Kingsguard and is the only one to survive. Rather than go down fighting, he not only accepts aid from the "usurper" but eventually joins the usurper's Kingsguard as its lord commander. Contrast this to three guys at the Tower of Joy who are implicitly offered safe passage and who aren't injured, and instead go down fighting. Or Gyles Belgrave, who had the option of going to the Wall but chose execution so he wouldn't outlive Aegon II.

This is really unfair . From everything we know Barristan fought like a madman on the Trident . He was wounded by spear , sword and arrow. He went down fighting and was going to die if Robert had not sent him his Maester. He did not "accept aid" , he was probably so badly hurt he had no idea he was being given aid.

[Mithras]

I think Westeros will be a new world after the LN ends. It will be mostly devastated but rebuilt in a better way. Certain old institutions will cease to exist and I think the KG is on the list. It was a corrupt order under Aerys II and it only gets worse and worse every moment.

I think the IT will be destroyed and not be rebuilt again. The capitol will move to Harrenhal where Jon will sit on a weirwood throne symbolizing remembrance and preservation.

I now think the Wall will not need to be rebuilt again because this time the problem will be dealt decisively and the seasons will return to normal.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is really unfair . From everything we know Barristan fought like a madman on the Trident . He was wounded by spear , sword and arrow. He went down fighting and was going to die if Robert had not sent him his Maester. He did not "accept aid" , he was probably so badly hurt he had no idea he was being

given aid.

And I'm sure Robert put a knife to his throat when he offered him the command of the Kingsguard, too.

He would have died without the maester, but that's kind of the point: You go down with your king.

[Blackfish Tully]

Fair enough. I was looking through the scene and didn't see it. Obviously didn't look hard enough.

I still stand by my overall point: The myth of Honorable Barristan is just that, a myth.

I don't know about the "myth of Honorable Barristan" but i do know that Barristan is a good guy who has always tried to do the right thing in a pretty screwed up world. His POV was a window into his soul and we see that he is a guy who regrets much of his past even his greatest feat (saving Aerys from Duskendale) and he is not the guy some posters try to make him out to be (he does not go around bragging about how honorable he is)

And I'm sure Robert put a knife to his throat when he offered him the command of the Kingsguard, too.

He would have died without the maester, but that's kind of the point: You go down with your king.

I didn't say anything about that but your point that he somehow "accepted aid" is just wrong . he gave everything for his King , it's not his fault he did not die.

After recovering he saw that Robert was King and he seemed to be potentially a great King so I have no problem with Barristan serving him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

After recovering he saw that Robert was King and he seemed to be potentially a great King so I have no problem with Barristan serving him.

My issue with Selmy is that he goes back and forth depending on the circumstances. He goes from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany, and then turns around and gets to retcon stuff because no one is there to call him on it. Yes, please, Barristan, tell us how you knew Viserys was a nutcase at 8 years old, now that he's dead and you have the benefit of hindsight, yet Joffrey gutted a cat and what looks like half of Tommen's pets, and you only left his service when you were sacked. And sure, don't tell Dany that you told Joffrey that Stannis would take his throne. You know, that might piss her off some.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What was he thinking? Is his honor a sham? For all his "no killing innocents" in Mereen, didn't he stand by and watch that not once, but twice in King's Landing?

Yes, his honor is indeed a sham. He never cared about honor. What he cares about is the glory of being recognized as a Kingsguard.

That always felt like a huge cop out to me. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, that's pretty much the same defense most of the people at Nuremburg used, that they were only following orders. The hypocrisy of an order that prides itself on honor and devotion turning a blind eye and even enabling in some cases the most henious of crimes is really beyond me.

Barristan "seeing the light" only after he was fired is pretty meaningless really. I'm sure a lot of people "see the light" when the handcuffs are thrown on them and not a moment before.

Exactly that. I despise the guy. Mostly because he can't own up to what he is.

[Blackfish Tully]

My issue with Selmy is that he goes back and forth depending on the circumstances. He goes from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany, and then turns around and gets to retcon stuff because no one is there to call him on it. Yes, please, Barristan, tell us how you knew Viserys was a nutcase at 8 years old, now that he's dead and you have the benefit of hindsight, yet Joffrey gutted a cat and what looks like half of Tommen's pets, and you only left his service when you were sacked. And sure, don't tell Dany that you told Joffrey that Stannis would take his throne. You know, that might piss her off some.

I have no problem with you having issues with his decision but I have less a problem with his decisions then most people . I recognize that Barristan is basically a simple guy who wanted to be a warrior and only true love was testing himself on the battlefield. He was put into situation that were way more complicated then he was prepared to handle and he made the best decisions he could at the time.

Were those decisions the best he could have made ? maybe not but his alternatives were not easy choices. We see in ADWD that he is finally growing beyond his need to be just a warrior and becoming a leader.

[Blackfish Tully]

Yes, his honor is indeed a sham. He never cared about honor. What he cares about is the glory of being recognized as a Kingsguard.

Exactly that. I despise the guy. Mostly because he can't own up to what he is.

I don't understand after reading ADWD you can still have this attitude. His POV show a guy racked with self doubt even about his greatest feat (rescuing Aerys from Duskendale) and someone afraid to Knight his young charges because he's afraid to pass his dishonor to them.