Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Taenqyrhae]

I don't normally reopen closed threads of mine, but since this was probably the most popular thread I ever started, and because I was asked to, and because we have new information about GRRMs original plans for Jon Snow, I felt it would be appropriate.

Here is the link to the original thread, I will summarize the points I made.

1. It is hypothesized that GRRM hid clues regarding who Sansa would marry in The Hedge Knight which indicate that the last person she will be betrothed to is a Targaryan.

2. Sansa is the only one of the Stark children who never refers to Jon as her brother, only as her half-brother. She is more distant from him emotionally than the rest of her siblings, which would make it a lot easier to accept the idea of marrying him when she finds out he is not her half-brother.

3. Sansa speaks repeatedly about wanting to return to Winterfell, and Jon has been offered the chance to be Lord of Winterfell.

4. This union would unite the Stark and Targaryan families for the first time, tying in to the series title.

I have a few more points to add that I didn't put in my original post.

5. Sansa fantasizes about a "hero" who would cut off Janos Slynt's head, and daydreams of marrying heroic knights. Jon is her hero here.

6. We have recently been made aware that GRRM originally intended there to be a love triangle between Jon Snow, Tyrion, and Arya. This was while he still intended a 5 year gap, and we can see that a lot of aspects of Arya in his original proposal for the book series have been moved to the character of Sansa.

7. We know that Ned's parents were themselves cousins who married, showing that cousin marriage is accepted among the Starks.

So, I believe that the case that Jon Snow (or rather, Jon Targaryan) will marry Sansa Stark has been strengthened greatly by this new information. Anyone wish to continue this discussion?

[Mladen]

Let me dissect this:

1. Jon is not only Targ out there. Sansa's relationship with SR can be historic parallel to Sharra Arryn who offered herself to Aegon the Conqueror. That might be her Targaryen.

2. Plainly false. Sansa has more than enough sisterly feelings towards Jon and every time she remembers him, she sees him as her brother.

3. Wanting to go back to Winterfell =/= marrying Jon. Plus, IDK whether you remember, but Jon refused the position of Lord of Winterfell.

4. You mean, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't unite their families in that bundle of joy we call Jon? Plus, politically speaking, the marriage would be worthless.

5. Wrong tense here. Sansa fantasized about hero. Now, she wants a man who will love her for herself.

6. And GRRM has written much different story since then. I know, 20 years after and it is still news. Whatever GRRM planned at some moment can't be argued as some sort of evidence, since it is plainly obvious he has written much different story.

7. Yes, Ned's parents were cousins, and Jon and Sansa are definitely cousins. But they grew up as siblings. This would be Jaime/Cersei all over again. Not to mention that marriage as political tool is off the table here, since Jon and Sansa are kinda on the same side.

[Grail King]

Being Sansa lovers, if Sansa is begot with child, do you think they stay on the same side enlight of the outed pages now on this board?

[Mad Madam Mim]

I don't normally reopen closed threads of mine, but since this was probably the most popular thread I ever started, and because I was asked to, and because we have new information about GRRMs original plans for Jon Snow, I felt it would be appropriate.

Here is the link to the original thread, I will summarize the points I made.

1. It is hypothesized that GRRM hid clues regarding who Sansa would marry in The Hedge Knight which indicate that the last person she will be betrothed to is a Targaryan.

2. Sansa is the only one of the Stark children who never refers to Jon as her brother, only as her half-brother. She is more distant from him emotionally than the rest of her siblings, which would make it a lot easier to accept the idea of marrying him when she finds out he is not her half-brother.

3. Sansa speaks repeatedly about wanting to return to Winterfell, and Jon has been offered the chance to be Lord of Winterfell.

4. This union would unite the Stark and Targaryan families for the first time, tying in to the series title.

I have a few more points to add that I didn't put in my original post.

5. Sansa fantasizes about a "hero" who would cut off Janos Slynt's head, and daydreams of marrying heroic knights. Jon is her hero here.

6. We have recently been made aware that GRRM originally intended there to be a love triangle between Jon Snow, Tyrion, and Arya. This was while he still intended a 5 year gap, and we can see that a lot of aspects of Arya in his original proposal for the book series have been moved to the character of Sansa.

7. We know that Ned's parents were themselves cousins who married, showing that cousin marriage is accepted among the Starks.

So, I believe that the case that Jon Snow (or rather, Jon Targaryan) will marry Sansa Stark has been strengthened greatly by this new information. Anyone wish to continue this discussion?

By new "information" are you referring to GRRM's original plan to marry Jon to Arya? How is this information related to Sansa?

Admittedly I have only briefly scanned the letter GRRM wrote but what "aspects of Arya" have been "moved to the character of Sansa"? I don't think this particular piece of information can be included as evidence that Jon and Sansa will marry at all.

The precise details of Sansa's arc are obviously completely different but GRRM seems to have kept the basic premise of his original plan for Sansa intact; Sansa has a relationship with Joffrey, she makes the wrong choice in favour of Joffrey, she regrets this choice and is stuck in a marriage she does not want to be in.

[Taenqyrhae]

Let me dissect this:

1. Jon is not only Targ out there. Sansa's relationship with SR can be historic parallel to Sharra Arryn who offered herself to Aegon the Conqueror. That might be her Targaryen.

2. Plainly false. Sansa has more than enough sisterly feelings towards Jon and every time she remembers him, she sees him as her brother.

3. Wanting to go back to Winterfell =/= marrying Jon. Plus, IDK whether you remember, but Jon refused the position of Lord of Winterfell.

4. You mean, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't unite their families in that bundle of joy we call Jon? Plus, politically speaking, the marriage would be worthless.

5. Wrong tense here. Sansa fantasized about hero. Now, she wants a man who will love her for herself.

6. And GRRM has written much different story since then. I know, 20 years after and it is still news. Whatever GRRM planned at some moment can't be argued as some sort of evidence, since it is plainly obvious he has written much different story.

7. Yes, Ned's parents were cousins, and Jon and Sansa are definitely cousins. But they grew up as siblings. This would be Jaime/Cersei all over again. Not to mention that marriage as political tool is off the table here, since Jon and Sansa are kinda on the same side.

1. I don't believe Aegon is truly a Targaryan, so unless Westeros legalizes same-sex marriage Jon's the only Targaryan available to marry.

2. She never thinks of him as a brother, though. She thinks of him as half-brother, unlike EVERY OTHER STARK. This surely is significant.

3. Jon refused the position of Winterfell because it would violate his vows. He also dreamed of being Lord of WInterfell as a child before he realized he never would be able to as a bastard. Now that he's likely to be legitimized, and released from his vows to the Watch, there is nothing stopping him of realizing his dream.

4. That depends on whether you believe that Jon was born legitimate (that Rhaegar married Lyanna and not at the point of a sword) AND that everybody else accepts it as legitimate. I don't buy that Lyanna would consent to that, GRRM has said that realistically noble women married who they were betrothed to, it was their duty. A kidnapping and a rape do not unite houses, but if Jon became a legitimized Targaryan bastard, marrying Sansa would unite the houses.

5. Got textual evidence for that? I don't recall Sansa saying or thinking anything along those lines in her more recent chapters.

6. The story is not very different from what he described, just re-arranged. Some characters have been split into multiple characters, but they still do most of what's in the letter. Arya has had aspects of her original story transferred to Sansa. Tyrion has had parts of his story become Theons. The main themes of the story are still there, and the love triangle between Jon, Arya, and Tyrion was one of the central conflicts of the story.

7. Again, Sansa did not see him as a true sibling the way the other Starks did. She saw Jon as her father's bastard and her half-brother, just because she grew up with him doesn't mean she sees him as a sibling. She does not see Theon as a sibling. We also do not know that Sansa and Jon will be on the same side, as you claim. She's currently on Littlefinger's side, not Jon's.

[WeaselPie]

Let me dissect this:

7. Yes, Ned's parents were cousins, and Jon and Sansa are definitely cousins. But they grew up as siblings. This would be Jaime/Cersei all over again. Not to mention that marriage as political tool is off the table here, since Jon and Sansa are kinda on the same side.

Yet, if Jon and Arya are cousins, that is exactly what GRRM originally intended.

Further, the inference in the letter is that Jon and Arya are freed of their anguish about being half-siblings in love by the reveal of Jon's parentage.

So they are freed of their anguish by realizing they're cousins? Hardly seems worth the effort on GRRMs part.

[Newstar]

The outline as written seemed to be hinting at a King Jon/Queen Arya endgame, in between Jon and Arya's romance, Jon's "true parentage," and the fact that he intended Jon and Arya to survive. Assuming he still plans to go the Starkcest route, Book Sansa seems a much more likely candidate than Arya for the part of an endgame queen married to Jon.

On the other hand, it seems like Outline Sansa is off doing her own thing and isolated from the other Starks, much like Book Sansa is. Also, if Book Sansa is going to have a passionate romance with anyone, it's most likely to be Sandor.

I can't help but laugh at everyone in the previous thread who was all "GRRM would NEVAH!" re: Starkcest. He totally would and still might.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Jon mentions Sansa after her marriage to Tyrion all of three times in the books.

He never even remarks on it with any alarm at all. In fact, he's more disturbed by Tyrion killing Tywin than Sansa being forcefully wed to him.

I wish I could defy the laws of reality become Brandon the Burner, if that's what it took to destroy this ship.

[Taenqyrhae]

By new "information" are you referring to GRRM's original plan to marry Jon to Arya? How is this information related to Sansa?

Admittedly I have only briefly scanned the letter GRRM wrote but what "aspects of Arya" have been "moved to the character of Sansa"? I don't think this particular piece of information can be included as evidence that Jon and Sansa will marry at all.

The original plan was for Tyrion to be in love with Arya. He ended up married to Sansa, and if not yet in love, fairly enamored of her.

GRRM's original plan was for Jon to marry a girl he thought was his half-sister until finding out his true ancestry. This was obviously a very big part of the story. When he wrote this, his original plan was for Sansa to go over to the Lannister side and that Arya was going to be an older character who was in a relationship with Tyrion. Obviously he has re-arranged this when he decided not to do the 5 year gap.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

By new "information" are you referring to GRRM's original plan to marry Jon to Arya? How is this information related to Sansa?

Admittedly I have only briefly scanned the letter GRRM wrote but what "aspects of Arya" have been "moved to the character of Sansa"? I don't think this particular piece of information can be included as evidence that Jon and Sansa will marry at all.

To me the Tyrion connection to Sansa makes me think that a lot of the Arya story was transferred to Sansa. Not that I think it will end in Jon + Sansa but I can see the Arya to Sansa thought from the outline

[WeaselPie]

The original plan was for Tyrion to be in love with Arya. He ended up married to Sansa, and if not yet in love, fairly enamored of her.

GRRM's original plan was for Jon to marry a girl he thought was his half-sister until finding out his true ancestry. This was obviously a very big part of the story. When he wrote this, his original plan was for Sansa to go over to the Lannister side and that Arya was going to be an older character who was in a relationship with Tyrion. Obviously he has re-arranged this when he decided not to do the 5 year gap.

Question: does Jon Snow even know Sansa was married to his dear old chum Tyrion? I can't recall.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

This would be Jaime/Cersei all over again.

I disagree. I don't think GRRM would see it that way based on the fact that Jon/Arya was originally going to be a thing. The mentions of Jon's parentage are supposed to make a Jon/Arya union okay. That's the way the outline read to me.

If GRRM thought at one time that he wanted a pairing between Jon and one of the Stark daughters I don't see why that idea couldn't still be on the table in some fashion only with Sansa as the cousin rather than Arya. The point is that GRRM shows in the outline that a sibling bond didn't keep him from pairing Jon and Arya. People want to argue that GRRM wouldn't go the quasi-incest route because Jon and Sansa (or Jon and Arya) were raised as siblings but I feel like this outline is showing that GRRM doesn't think of the sibling bond as a dealbreaker when it comes to pairing Jon with a character that he grew up thinking was his half sister.

I see a strong sibling like bond between Jon and every one of the Stark kids with the exception of Sansa. When I take everything else into account this makes me think that there is a very deliberate reason for why there's less of a bond between Jon and Sansa and suggests to me that Jon/Sansa might very well be the end game.

I also think that we got a very deliberate clue about Jon/Sansa in ACoK when Sansa is wrapping herself in the white cloak stained with "blood and fire". I thought it was foreshadowing.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

To me the Tyrion connection to Sansa makes me think that a lot of the Arya story was transferred to Sansa. Not that I think it will end in Jon + Sansa but I can see the Arya to Sansa thought from the outline

If that were the case wouldn't GRRM build up the relationship between Jon and Sansa, even in retrospect? Jon does nothing when he finds out Sansa is hostage but nearly breaks his vows to rescue Arya who is held by the Boltons. I think if anything, Tyrion has been removed from any love triangle and replaced rather than Arya being replaced with Dany or Sansa. The relationship between Jon and Arya is consistently referenced with his interaction with Ygritte and Alys. His sister is everything to him. That may stay sisterly, it may not, I'm a Gendry fan so I hope it does :blushing:

Also, I'm reminded of one of Sansa's less...nice....moments in GOT when she says that when she is Queen, Arya will have to bow to her, so glad her sister will finally be officially beneath her. I always thought that meant Arya would come out ahead, nice to see that was not far off in the original plan.

[Sweetgirl205]

I could see them in some sort of partnership, but I don't think it will be a romantic one. First,I do think Sansa will come home to Winterfell. She will need help. Jon is the best suited to help her. However, I can't see them married. Jon doesn't really seem to think of Sansa at all. Sansa feels superior to Jon at this point. Of course, feelings could change. Sansa seems a little horrified at the idea of marriage to anyone at this point. She is using her marriage to Tyrion as a shield to avoid any marriage, although Littlefinger claims he has a scheme worked out for her to marry Harry the Heir.

[WeaselPie]

If that were the case wouldn't GRRM build up the relationship between Jon and Sansa, even in retrospect? Jon does nothing when he finds out Sansa is hostage but nearly breaks his vows to rescue Arya who is held by the Boltons. I think if anything, Tyrion has been removed from any love triangle and replaced rather than Arya being replaced with Dany or Sansa. The relationship between Jon and Arya is consistently referenced with his interaction with Ygritte and Alys. His sister is everything to him. That may stay sisterly, it may not, I'm a Gendry fan so I hope it does :blushing:

Can you please tell me where Jon finds out about Sansa/Tyrion? I don't have searchable text and google is not my friend today.

[Sweetgirl205]

I could see them in some sort of partnership, but I don't think it will be a romantic one. First,I do think Sansa will come home to Winterfell. She will need help. Jon is the best suited to help her. However, I can't see them married. Jon doesn't really seem to think of Sansa at all. Sansa feels superior to Jon at this point. Of course, feelings could change. Sansa seems a little horrified at the idea of marriage to anyone at this point. She is using her marriage to Tyrion as a shield to avoid any marriage, although Littlefinger claims he has a scheme worked out for her to marry Harry the Heir.

[WeaselPie]

I could see them in some sort of partnership, but I don't think it will be a romantic one. First,I do think Sansa will come home to Winterfell. She will need help. Jon is the best suited to help her. However, I can't see them married. Jon doesn't really seem to think of Sansa at all. Sansa feels superior to Jon at this point. Of course, feelings could change. Sansa seems a little horrified at the idea of marriage to anyone at this point. She is using her marriage to Tyrion as a shield to avoid any marriage, although Littlefinger claims he has a scheme worked out for her to marry Harry the Heir.

Hmm. Sansa has now embraced the identity of a bastard, the thing she seemed to disdain about Jon in book one. I disagree about her current feelings of superiority.

Regardless, if and when they meet, I think Sansa would be awed by his accomplishments and strengths. And I think Jon would be pretty shocked at Sansa's transformation.

[Gogossos]

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

[Emphasis mine]

This passage doesn't suggest they consummate the relationship, his vows are as much a problem as his blood. Being tormented by their passion would mean simply pining for something you don't have a right to (like Jon felt about being the Lord of Winterfell in the books) or in Arya's case in this outline, wanting something you shouldn't, it terrifies her how she feels. Now, that's something that can be transferred to a Sansa POV should GRRM be so inclined but it wouldn't necessarily lead to a consummation. Even in the outline, the resolution to this is redacted, there are other variables involved: Dany and Tyrion's roles, for a start. The same issues transfer to a Sansa/Jon ship. If R+L=J and Jon wants to marry Sansa, how will Dany react? Where does that leave the marriage to Tyrion?

[Newstar]

I also think that we got a very deliberate clue about Jon/Sansa in ACoK when Sansa is wrapping herself in the white cloak stained with "blood and fire". I thought it was foreshadowing.

It was Sandor's cloak, though, and she wrapped herself in his cloak previously in ACOK.

I hate SanSan, for the record, but that bit hardly screamed Jon/Sansa foreshadowing to me.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Can you please tell me where Jon finds out about Sansa/Tyrion? I don't have searchable text and google is not my friend today.

I don't have searchable text either, just good old books, but when Stannis calls her Lady Lannister Jon doesn't react with shock.

'"By right, Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa" Stannis: "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."'

Jon reiterates that Winterfell belongs to Sansa showing no emnity to Tyrion at all and no shock about events. He was tested to leave to go with Robb to Kings Landing mainly for Ned. He knew Sansa never went back North.