Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[WeaselPie]

I don't have searchable text either, just good old books, but when Stannis calls her Lady Lannister Jon doesn't react with shock.

'"By right, Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa" Stannis: "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."'

Jon reiterates that Winterfell belongs to Sansa showing no emnity to Tyrion at all and no shock about events. He was tested to leave to go with Robb to Kings Landing mainly for Ned. He knew Sansa never went back North.

TY very much!

ETA is this the first time he'd heard it?

[Sweetgirl205]

Hmm. Sansa has now embraced the identity of a bastard, the thing she seemed to disdain about Jon in book one. I disagree about her current feelings of superiority.

Regardless, if and when they meet, I think Sansa would be awed by his accomplishments and strengths. And I think Jon would be pretty shocked at Sansa's transformation.

Like I said, feelings change. Jon is now an authority figure and Sansa isn't so stuck up now. I put nothing past Martin. They may fall head over heels for each other and marry the second they realize they aren't siblings. I can definitely see Jon being the hero of Sansa's old dreams, but does she still believe in dreams?

[Mad Madam Mim]

The original plan was for Tyrion to be in love with Arya. He ended up married to Sansa, and if not yet in love, fairly enamored of her.

GRRM's original plan was for Jon to marry a girl he thought was his half-sister until finding out his true ancestry. This was obviously a very big part of the story. When he wrote this, his original plan was for Sansa to go over to the Lannister side and that Arya was going to be an older character who was in a relationship with Tyrion. Obviously he has re-arranged this when he decided not to do the 5 year gap.

GRRM's originally planned for Tyrion to fall in love with Arya.

Arya does not like him or reciprocate his feelings.

What actually happens is that Tyrion marries Sansa.

Sansa does not like him or reciprocate his feelings.

That's fine, I can see what you are saying but this is still a huge leap to then suggest this is evidence for a Jon and Sansa relationship. It means nothing.

I

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't think you can claim the 1993 letter was written when the George planned a five-year gap, since the letter outlines the original trilogy for Game, Dance & Winds, and the gap was intended to advance the ages of characters following Storm. He apparently intended to stretch his original trilogy over a span of years, but as he wrote it, he filled in too much detail.

[Taenqyrhae]

GRRM's originally planned for Tyrion to fall in love with Arya.

Arya does not like him or reciprocate his feelings.

What actually happens is that Tyrion marries Sansa.

Sansa does not like him or reciprocate his feelings.

That's fine, I can see what you are saying but this is still a huge leap to then suggest this is evidence for a Jon and Sansa relationship. It means nothing.

It means that he had plans for Arya that ended up being moved to Sansa in the books.

The biggest thing he has planned for Arya is her marrying Jon - he's going to follow the other plot points but abandon the union that the series is named after?

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

Hmm. Sansa has now embraced the identity of a bastard, the thing she seemed to disdain about Jon in book one. I disagree about her current feelings of superiority.

Regardless, if and when they meet, I think Sansa would be awed by his accomplishments and strengths. And I think Jon would be pretty shocked at Sansa's transformation.

I agree with all of this. I think Sansa's feelings about Jon are very different than they were in the first book and I think I felt this most when Sansa reflects on how "sweet" it would be to see him again.

I feel like Jon is slowly growing into the heroic prince that Sansa has always dreamed about and I kind of like that he was there under her nose all along while she was growing up.

I also maintain that Jon and Sansa together would be like the super version of Ned and Catelyn who were arguably the happiest married highborn couple in Westeros.

It was Sandor's cloak, though, and she wrapped herself in his cloak previously in ACOK.

I hate SanSan, for the record, but that bit hardly screamed Jon/Sansa foreshadowing to me.

I realize that it was Sandor's cloak but I think the part about the cloak being stained with "blood and fire" was a Targaryen reference. I felt like Sandor no longer had any connection to the cloak because he's done with the KG. It would have been very different if Sandor had covered her with the cloak himself before he'd gone. Sansa being protected by a snow white cloak that is stained with fire and blood just screams Jon Snow to me.

[OldGimletEye]

Yeah, more Stark incest!

I can't wait to tell jokes like, "How do you geld a Stark!. By kicking his sister in the chin!"

Can't wait for next week's installment of Stark incest theories.

[Mladen]

1. I don't believe Aegon is truly a Targaryan, so unless Westeros legalizes same-sex marriage Jon's the only Targaryan available to marry.

2. She never thinks of him as a brother, though. She thinks of him as half-brother, unlike EVERY OTHER STARK. This surely is significant.

3. Jon refused the position of Winterfell because it would violate his vows. He also dreamed of being Lord of WInterfell as a child before he realized he never would be able to as a bastard. Now that he's likely to be legitimized, and released from his vows to the Watch, there is nothing stopping him of realizing his dream.

4. That depends on whether you believe that Jon was born legitimate (that Rhaegar married Lyanna and not at the point of a sword) AND that everybody else accepts it as legitimate. I don't buy that Lyanna would consent to that, GRRM has said that realistically noble women married who they were betrothed to, it was their duty. A kidnapping and a rape do not unite houses, but if Jon became a legitimized Targaryan bastard, marrying Sansa would unite the houses.

5. Got textual evidence for that? I don't recall Sansa saying or thinking anything along those lines in her more recent chapters.

6. The story is not very different from what he described, just re-arranged. Some characters have been split into multiple characters, but they still do most of what's in the letter. Arya has had aspects of her original story transferred to Sansa. Tyrion has had parts of his story become Theons. The main themes of the story are still there, and the love triangle between Jon, Arya, and Tyrion was one of the central conflicts of the story.

7. Again, Sansa did not see him as a true sibling the way the other Starks did. She saw Jon as her father's bastard and her half-brother, just because she grew up with him doesn't mean she sees him as a sibling. She does not see Theon as a sibling. We also do not know that Sansa and Jon will be on the same side, as you claim. She's currently on Littlefinger's side, not Jon's.

1. Me neither. But that doesn't change the possibility that people will believe that he is Targaryen.

2. Yes, she does. She feels sorry for him when she sees Yoren, when Myranda Royce reminds her of him, she is thinking of him in line of her brother. She does feel about him as her brother, just as he feels about her as his sister.

3. No, he will never be released from his vows. Jon won't leave the NW based on technicality.

4. Jon is half-Stark, he doesn't need to reunite himself with Starks. Especially since they see him as their brother. Marriage as a political tool her is worthless because there is no need for alliance. Alliance is already there.

5. Actually, her entire storyline is about stopping believing in songs. She wants a kind man, someone who will love for her, which is repeated throughout the series, especially in ASOS when she has been tossed around from Tyrell to Lannister. So, the Sansa who believed in songs is so long time dead.

6. Rearranged with creating totally different characters. These are not the same character and using that piece of paper as some evidence is hilarious. Especially, in contrition with the story that has been published.

7. Yes, she does. She sees him as half-brother, the same way everyone else, beside Arya did. Let we not forget that even Jon said that they are his half-siblings in AGOT. We don't have one romantic thought regarding Jon. All her thoughts when it comes to Jon are purely as sibling. And LOL at Theon argument. Guess what, she was raised knowing Theon is not her sibling, so IDK, perhaps that is the reason why she doesn't see Theon as a sibling. Jon is a different story and we have her POV as a proof. And she is not on LF's side, since she doesn't even know what that side is, or even whether it is against Jon. The moment LF tries to do something against her family, he is doomed.

Yet, if Jon and Arya are cousins, that is exactly what GRRM originally intended.

Further, the inference in the letter is that Jon and Arya are freed of their anguish about being half-siblings in love by the reveal of Jon's parentage.

So they are freed of their anguish by realizing they're cousins? Hardly seems worth the effort on GRRMs part.

Does anyone here understand the difference between an idea and developed series. Just because GRRM thought of that at some moment doesn't mean it can affect the series. Especially when the characters are so different. Arya from that outline and Arya five ASOIAF books later are not the same character.

I disagree. I don't think GRRM would see it that way based on the fact that Jon/Arya was originally going to be a thing. The mentions of Jon's parentage are supposed to make a Jon/Arya union okay. That's the way the outline read to me.

No, actually, this union is far worse. Jaime never saw Cersei as his sister. Jon, at this moment of the series, sees Arya, and Sansa as his sisters. Something he obviously didn't feel that way in the series we got. People, we don't need outline to tell us about this series, we have the series,

If GRRM thought at one time that he wanted a pairing between Jon and one of the Stark daughters I don't see why that idea couldn't still be on the table in some fashion only with Sansa as the cousin rather than Arya. The point is that GRRM shows in the outline that a sibling bond didn't keep him from pairing Jon and Arya. People want to argue that GRRM wouldn't go the quasi-incest route because Jon and Sansa (or Jon and Arya) were raised as siblings but I feel like this outline is showing that GRRM doesn't think of the sibling bond as a dealbreaker when it comes to pairing Jon with a character that he grew up thinking was his half sister.

Because, in the series we got and somehow we all forgot because of one tweet, Jon is feeling like a brother to Arya, something he didn't feel in taht outline. Jon/Arya or Jon/Sansa dynamics is far different from the one that is in that outline. That is why the idea is off the table. Because the narrative pushed it off the table.

I see a strong sibling like bond between Jon and every one of the Stark kids with the exception of Sansa. When I take everything else into account this makes me think that there is a very deliberate reason for why there's less of a bond between Jon and Sansa and suggests to me that Jon/Sansa might very well be the end game.

Well, we can say that Arya liked Sansa the least. Do you argue for some lesbian relationship between them? Jon not feeling the same about Sansa as he does about Arya doesn't mean he doesn't think of her as his sister. Which, btw, he calls her every time he recalls her.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

It means that he had plans for Arya that ended up being moved to Sansa in the books.

The biggest thing he has planned for Arya is her marrying Jon - he's going to follow the other plot points but abandon the union that the series is named after?

Exactly, I don't get why he would do that.

[para]

Question: does Jon Snow even know Sansa was married to his dear old chum Tyrion? I can't recall.

We don't know. Jon's POV mention Sansa three or four times. None of them are spent on her marriage to Tyrion or that she supposedly killed their father's murderer (Joffrey). Or that she has disappeared.

Which is strange because all of these things are the sort of gossip that would have made it even to the Wall and since they concern Jon's sister, he should have heard of it and should have wasted some thoughts on this.

That he doesn't, makes it look less like he didn't hear or think about it but rather GRRM doesn't show him thinking about it.

[Taenqyrhae]

Yeah, more Stark incest!

I can't wait to tell jokes like, "How do you geld a Stark!. By kicking his sister in the chin!"

Can't wait for next week's installment of Stark incest theories.

It's not incest if they are cousins. GRRM obviously thinks Starks have no problem marrying cousins as Brandon Stark married his cousin Lyarra and intended for Jon to marry Arya originally.

[WeaselPie]

*snip*

Not sure why you are arguing so vehemently, when it's crystal clear that GRRM himself had no problem pairing Jon and Arya.

oops typo

[Mad Madam Mim]

It means that he had plans for Arya that ended up being moved to Sansa in the books.

The biggest thing he has planned for Arya is her marrying Jon - he's going to follow the other plot points but abandon the union that the series is named after?

Actually its you who is suggesting he is going to abandon the union he named the series after by suggesting Jon will marry Sansa instead of Arya, which as you state was "the biggest thing he had planned for Arya".

And he has kept the basic plot points of Sansa's story intact.

[Taenqyrhae]

Actually its you who is suggesting he is going to abandon the union he named the series after by suggesting Jon will marry Sansa instead of Arya, which as you state was "the biggest thing he had planned for Arya".

And he has kept the basic plot points of Sansa's story intact.

Well, he COULD marry Arya, but I think marrying Sansa makes more sense as Sansa has taken over the parts of the Arya story connected to the relationship with Jon. And there is all that foreshadowing, like the dress with black feathers.

[OldGimletEye]

It's not incest if they are cousins. GRRM obviously thinks Starks have no problem marrying cousins as Brandon Stark married his cousin Lyarra and intended for Jon to marry Arya originally.

And as has been explained again and again, by many others, this just isn't a simple matter of biology. Jon and Sansa think of each other as siblings.

And I really don't give a crap what GRRM thought in 1993. Obviously things have changed. Having Jon and Arya getting married would be totally against their characters. I mean Jon, as we know him now, would be completely creeped out by the notion of marrying Arya.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

TY very much!

ETA is this the first time he'd heard it?

Thats the part I'm unsure of. Seems like he heard off page?

Wait Wait, who said the union was Jon and a Stark rather than Rhaegar and Lyanna?

[Taenqyrhae]

And I really don't give a crap what GRRM thought in 1993. Obviously things have changed. Having Jon and Arya getting married would be totally against their characters. I mean Jon, as we know him now, would be completely creeped out by the notion of marrying Arya.

What is your textual evidence for this? I don't recall Jon thinking or saying anything that indicates a distaste of incest, and GRRM had originally planned for the character to be in love with Arya while he still thought of her as a sister.

[Newstar]

And as has been explained again and again, by many others, this just isn't a simple matter of biology. Jon and Sansa think of each other as siblings..

Obviously, GRRM didn't see Outline Jon and Arya viewing each other as siblings as an obstacle to falling in love, so this really isn't a counterargument to Jon and Sansa falling in love. We can safely say that "GRRM would NEVAH because they were raised as siblings!!!" is no longer any argument at all.

[Taenqyrhae]

Wait Wait, who said the union was Jon and a Stark rather than Rhaegar and Lyanna?

GRRM, in the letter.

[OldGimletEye]

What is your textual evidence for this? I don't recall Jon thinking or saying anything that indicates a distaste of incest, and GRRM had originally planned for the character to be in love with Arya while he still thought of her as a sister.

So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening.