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Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2


Taenqyrhae

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Not sure why you are arguing so vehemently, when it's crystal clear that GRRM himself had no problem pairing Jon and Arya.

oops typo

I am not arguing this vehemently, I am just expressing my bafflement over the idea that we should discard the actual published materials, all thousands of pages for the sake of one tweet. It is an idiocy I simply don't understand

GRRM had no problems pairing Jon and Arya when they were different characters. The outline clearly shows that dynamics in Stark household is much different than we got at the end. So, this Jon and Arya are not easily paired as their counterparts, because their relationship isn't the same.

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Well, he COULD marry Arya, but I think marrying Sansa makes more sense as Sansa has taken over the parts of the Arya story connected to the relationship with Jon. And there is all that foreshadowing, like the dress with black feathers.

Yes, her "black crow" dress makes a helluva lot of sense now

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So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening.

whoa whoa we are talking about Sansa taking over that part of the original Arya story

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So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening.

So, you have no evidence. You could have just said that.

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So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening.

Well, GRRM did see it happening and even planned the books around it at least at one point, and I'd say his view on the matter is the one that counts, not yours.

There are good reasons why Jon/Sansa is unlikely--SanSan, hello!--but "I just don't see it, therefore it won't happen" is not much of an argument.

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I am not arguing this vehemently, I am just expressing my bafflement over the idea that we should discard the actual published materials, all thousands of pages for the sake of one tweet. It is an idiocy I simply don't understand

I think it's idiocy to repeatedly refer to an actual letter from the author as "just one tweet".

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Obviously, GRRM didn't see Outline Jon and Arya viewing each other as siblings as an obstacle to falling in love, so this really isn't a counterargument to Jon and Sansa falling in love. We can safely say that "GRRM would NEVAH because they were raised as siblings!!!" is no longer any argument at all.

It's not a question of what GRRM would do. It's a question of whether it would be within Jon's and Sansa's characters to do so. And of course nobody can what will exactly happen. At best, people can just say what will probably happen. And I don't think it's likely to happen because 1) it's not going to make sense politically and 2) because I just don't see it consistent with their characters.

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Well, he COULD marry Arya, but I think marrying Sansa makes more sense as Sansa has taken over the parts of the Arya story connected to the relationship with Jon. And there is all that foreshadowing, like the dress with black feathers.

But she hasn't. She doesn't have a great relationship with Jon set up. She married Tyrion but Tyrion wasn't in love with her as described here with 'Arya'. He thought she was attractive and dignifed but that is it. Jon doesn't seem to have any jealousy about Tyrion having married Sansa. Jon barely mentions her and she barely mentions him.

Put it this way, why set up such a strong, affectionate relationship between Arya and Jon if Jon was going to marry Sansa? Why not set up Jon's pining for Sansa who thinks he is beneath her, only for her to go through a character arc and realising she was letting being proper get in the way of her feelings? The flow of the story doesn't support this assertion right now.

Its possible that 'Tyrion' is Ramsey who has a fake Arya Jon has arranged to rescue. Remember in the outline Tyrion burns Winterfell, in what we got Ramsay does it. With Arya escaping Kings Landing and Tyrion having no northern story, that whole angle can't work.

GRRM, in the letter.

I missed that bit completely. I may have been doubled over and urinating at the time.

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Well, we can say that Arya liked Sansa the least. Do you argue for some lesbian relationship between them? Jon not feeling the same about Sansa as he does about Arya doesn't mean he doesn't think of her as his sister. Which, btw, he calls her every time he recalls her.

No, I don't, I very much see a sibling bond between Sansa and Arya. They argue a lot but I don't doubt the strength of the sibling bond or their love for each other. Plus, the whole cousin reveal would add to the already changed dynamic between Jon and Sansa who have never seemed particularly close but will now have new reasons to appreciate each other if and when they see each other again. Sansa/Arya doesn't have the cousin reveal to make it less squicky plus a Sansa/Arya pairing doesn't add anything to the story whereas a Jon/Sansa pairing has all kinds of possibilities including of course making Sansa the YMBQ.

Obviously, GRRM didn't see Outline Jon and Arya viewing each other as siblings as an obstacle to falling in love, so this really isn't a counterargument to Jon and Sansa falling in love. We can safely say that "GRRM would NEVAH because they were raised as siblings!!!" is no longer any argument at all.

Exactly. To me the outline proves that GRRM doesn't think it's out of the question the way so many of his readers seem to think.

whoa whoa we are talking about Sansa taking over that part of the original Arya story

Right. Jon and Sansa don't have the same sibling dynamic that Jon and Arya do. Jon isn't going around mussing Sansa's hair and calling her little sister. They weren't close and the bond isn't nearly as strong as it is with Arya which is why I think Sansa is the most likely if GRRM is still planning on pairing Jon with one of his Stark cousins.

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I think it's idiocy to repeatedly refer to an actual letter from the author as "just one tweet".

Similarly short-sighted to claim to know the contents of three entire novels and all the nuances of relationships from one letter.

And thanks Newstar, you stated it perfectly. Some things can no longer be used as arguments against this theory.

edits because I'm not proofreading properly, sorry

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Well, GRRM did see it happening and even planned the books around it at least at one point, and I'd say his view on the matter is the one that counts, not yours.

There are good reasons why Jon/Sansa is unlikely--SanSan, hello!--but "I just don't see it, therefore it won't happen" is not much of an argument.

Well thanks for telling me that. I didn't know that. But, I think it's highly likely. Is it impossible? No. But, probably highly unlikely.

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At best, people can just say what will probably happen.

Then you should probably refrain from statements like "X would NEVER do Y", especially when the author originally planned for X to do Y and based the arc of the entire series around that.

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I think it's idiocy to repeatedly refer to an actual letter from the author as "just one tweet".

It is just one tweet, compared to thousands of pages we got. Apparently that page now trumps entire AGOT, ACOK and ASOS. We are to forget everything we have in published material just because GRRM had an idea at some point. Idea he clearly abandoned. So, I don't understand what fanfic now people are indulging, but one page, even from author himself should not have more weight than five published novels. And people behave that way. And truth be told, I can understand show watchers doing this, that even has some reasoning, this, on the other hand, is simply laughable.

I think some things can be reasonably inferred.

Oh, come on... GRRM needs to spill every word out so readers would understand. I mean, I still wonder why Sansa hasn't gone to the bathroom entire series. Or the fact that we have no idea that every morning the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I mean, why would we need to logically conclude anything? We should now even think while reading? Heavens :)

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Then you should probably refrain from statements like "X would NEVER do Y", especially when the author originally planned for X to do Y and based the arc of the entire series around that.

Ok, it's probably very unlikely it will happen. Feel better now? So, there is small chance that your hopes for Stark incest will happen.

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It is just one tweet, compared to thousands of pages we got. Apparently that page now trumps entire AGOT, ACOK and ASOS. We are to forget everything we have in published material just because GRRM had an idea at some point. Idea he clearly abandoned. So, I don't understand what fanfic now people are indulging, but one page, even from author himself should not have more weight than five published novels. And people behave that way. And truth be told, I can understand show watchers doing this, that even has some reasoning, this, on the other hand, is simply laughable.

Well it gives us a untainted look at GRRMs thought process. A lot of things in this plan are rearranged, so its not hard to think that other parts will be coming up. Its got as much weight as pointing at a line and saying its foreshadowing. We don't know until after! We also can't deny that things people picked up on reading GOT, that may have been dropped, we don't know, but we do now know that Sansa's actions in GOT that have been so controversial were on purpose and not meant to be excused. We know that 'You Will Marry A King' likely referred to Jon, along with the naming of Nymeria after basically a Queen, and the discussion about the Queen's sigil on the banners hinting at Queen Arya and King Jon. Can we discard these now? Do they no longer foreshadow? Do we know the plan has changed that much?

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We know that 'You Will Marry A King' likely referred to Jon, along with the naming of Nymeria after basically a Queen, and the discussion about the Queen's sigil on the banners hinting at Queen Arya and King Jon. Can we discard these now? Do they no longer foreshadow? Do we know the plan has changed that much?

"You will marry a King...."

"No, that's Sansa!"

Kind of funny when you think about George writing that exchange, if Jon/Arya became Jon/Sansa. A nod to the original plot.

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Ok, it's probably very unlikely it will happen. Feel better now? So, there is small chance that your hopes for Stark incest will happen.

Where are you getting that there is a "small" chance? How can you say one way or the other what the likelihood is?

I also disagree that taking the previous outline into account means that a person is somehow disregarding the books that have been published.

All I'm saying is that from reading the books the possibility of Jon/Sansa occurred to me and I'd see it repeatedly stated that GRRM wouldn't pair Jon with either of the Stark cousins that he was raised to think are his sisters. People said GRRM would *never* do it and now here's proof that it was something that was part of his original plan. Why is it so outrageous to think that some aspect of this could still be part of his original plan?

As for why they didn't set anything up earlier with Jon pining for Sansa--I personally think that would have been a bit much at that stage in the game and it would have made people think that Jon was weird for lusting after his sister. OTOH with Sansa not having seen Jon since she was eleven I think if they meet again that it'll be almost like meeting each other for the first time. He's a fully fledged warrior and battle commander and she's more beautiful and is no longer the silly and superficial girl she once was. To me it makes more sense for a relationship to build like that rather than setting it up early so that Jon conveniently ends up with the girl he's wanted since childhood.

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