Jons time off birth?

[Janice]

I was just rereading GOT and in cats 2nd chapter when talking about rob and Jon, and saying Jon is 14 while rob is NEARLY 14? If ned fartherd Jon while at war but conceived rob before leaving for war how does cat even think that Jon is neds? It doesn't make sense . Sorry if this been covered before

Thoughts???

[LordStoneheart]

Are you sure about 'nearly?' My copy just says that both are fourteen. But for what it's worth, Catelyn thinks the mother is Ashara Dayne who Eddard was rumored to have a connection with since the Tourney at Harrenhal.

[Janice]

He is fourteen soon enough nearly a man grown? And thanks but in that case wouldn't Jon have been conceived before cat even married ned?

[The Wolfswood]

Yes, Jon is about 6 weeks older than Robb. The fact that Ned and Cat would not have been married when Jon was conceived was confirmed by Harwin (or someone like that) after the conversation with Edric Dayne that Arya had at High Heart.

Ned had not been just sitting at home in Winterfell before that though. He was with Robert Baratheon, so for all anybody knew he could have fathered a child somewhere further south.

Cat's grievance was not so much that Jon existed, but that Ned insisted on bringing him home with him and making him part of the family for all to see.

[Janice]

Yes, Jon is about 6 weeks older than Robb. The fact that Ned and Cat would not have been married when Jon was conceived was confirmed by Harwin (or someone like that) after the conversation with Edric Dayne that Arya had at High Heart.

Ned had not been just sitting at home in Winterfell before that though. He was with Robert Baratheon, so for all anybody knew he could have fathered a child somewhere further south.

Cat's grievance was not so much that Jon existed, but that Ned insisted on bringing him home with him and making him part of the family for all to see.

Yes I now remember the convo with arya and Edric. :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, Jon is about 6 weeks older than Robb. The fact that Ned and Cat would not have been married when Jon was conceived was confirmed by Harwin (or someone like that) after the conversation with Edric Dayne that Arya had at High Heart.

Confirmed how?

[SFDanny]

My second Cat chapter clearly states Robb is fourteen, not "nearly" fourteen. Furthermore it is very clear Cat thinks Robb is older than Jon, which would not be possible if Jon had celebrated his name day before Robb for the last fourteen years. Sorry, but the OP is just wrong. What edition and what page number does this "nearly" come from?

edit: Here is the quote from my hardback US 1996 edition of A Game of Thrones:

"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook nor argument. "you must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him." (AGoT 53)

bold emphasis added

There is no "nearly" there.

[SFDanny]

Confirmed how?

It's not confirmed by Harwin at all. Harwin's only repeating gossip he has heard around the servant's quarters about Ned and Ashara. Catelyn clearly believes Ned has an affair after he leaves her pregnant with Robb. She even excuses his affair because he has a "man's needs" while away in the south fighting after he leaves her. Ned later confirms this timeline in his discussion with Robert about Wylla. Harwin's clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and is just trying to comfort Arya.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Is there any indication on when Jon celebrates his name day each year? I know he would have never had the same formal celebrations the other kids had growing up, but they must have marked the passing of years somehow.

EDIT: For that matter, do we know how much time passed between Robb being born and Ned returning home?

[SFDanny]

Is there any indication on when Jon celebrates his name day each year? I know he would have never had the same formal celebrations the other kids had growing up, but they must have marked the passing of years somehow.

EDIT: For that matter, do we know how much time passed between Robb being born and Ned returning home?

The answer to the first is there is very little to indicate when. His name day is after Bran and Robb's and before Margaery's, but how many months into the year is open speculation, much less a known exact date. The answer to the second question is just no, we don't know how much time passed. We know Ned goes to Starfall from the Tower of Joy, probably brings Jon back with him to meet up with his troops he left behind in Storm's End (whether this is at Storm's End or not is also an open question but the fact his troops bring home rumors of Jon being Ashara's child point to his reunion and Jon's first appearance to Ned's men takes place after his journey to Starfall,) and Ned then travels back to King's Landing to tell Robert about Lyanna's death during which he and Robert reconcile, and then he returns home to Winterfell. How much time it is before Ned gets back to Winterfell is unknown, and when during all this Robb is born is equally unknown. I'd only guess that Jon and Robb are likely close in age, although Jon could be of a different age than we are told in order to hide his origins, and that Robb is probably born around the time we are given by Martin as the general framework for Jon's birth - around the time of the sack or a month or so after.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's not confirmed by Harwin at all. Harwin's only repeating gossip he has heard around the servant's quarters about Ned and Ashara. Catelyn clearly believes Ned has an affair after he leaves her pregnant with Robb. She even excuses his affair because he has a "man's needs" while away in the south fighting after he leaves her. Ned later confirms this timeline in his discussion with Robert about Wylla. Harwin's clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and is just trying to comfort Arya.

Good, I couldn't believe it would have missed such a thing.

Is there any indication on when Jon celebrates his name day each year? I know he would have never had the same formal celebrations the other kids had growing up, but they must have marked the passing of years somehow.

EDIT: For that matter, do we know how much time passed between Robb being born and Ned returning home?

Jon mentions the passing of nameday in Game, when he thinks that Benjen had promised to be back in time for Jons nameday, which, as of that chapter, had been a fortnight ago.

The answer to the first is there is very little to indicate when. His name day is after Bran and Robb's and before Margaery's, but how many months into the year is open speculation, much less a known exact date. The answer to the second question is just no, we don't know how much time passed. We know Ned goes to Starfall from the Tower of Joy, probably brings Jon back with him to meet up with his troops he left behind in Storm's End (whether this is at Storm's End or not is also an open question but the fact his troops bring home rumors of Jon being Ashara's child point to his reunion and Jon's first appearance to Ned's men takes place after his journey to Starfall,) and Ned then travels back to King's Landing to tell Robert about Lyanna's death during which he and Robert reconcile, and then he returns home to Winterfell. How much time it is before Ned gets back to Winterfell is unknown, and when during all this Robb is born is equally unknown. I'd only guess that Jon and Robb are likely close in age, although Jon could be of a different age than we are told in order to hide his origins, and that Robb is probably born around the time we are given by Martin as the general framework for Jon's birth - around the time of the sack or a month or so after.

I've done an analysis, and the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are very close in age... But I don't see any reason as to state that his nameday comes before Margaery's? Could you explain?

[SFDanny]

Good, I couldn't believe it would have missed such a thing.

Jon mentions the passing of nameday in Game, when he thinks that Benjen had promised to be back in time for Jons nameday, which, as of that chapter, had been a fortnight ago.

I've done an analysis, and the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are very close in age... But I don't see any reason as to state that his nameday comes before Margaery's? Could you explain?

Sure, we know Jon's name day celebration comes before Margaery's because, as you mention, Jon's fifteenth name day comes and goes in a chapter before Tyrion and Yoren leave the wall. Yoren turns up in King's Landing and meets Ned and Arya and tells Ned about Catelyn seizing Tyrion the same day Arya over hears the conversation between Varys and Illyrio in the dungeons. Of importance is what Varys says there.

"This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they gather swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen." (AGoT 289 US Hardback)

bold emphasis added

We also know that, like Jon, Margaery is born in 283 (her age at her wedding to Joffrey on New Year's Day 300, and a few other quotes, proves that.) So, Jon turning 15 in 298 while Margaery is still fourteen means Jon's name day celebration comes before hers in a given year. Always with this caveat concerning Jon, however. Jon is the one character whose name day may actually be different than what he and most of the world think it is. Ned may have lied to cover any nagging issues about Jon being born around the time of the events at the tower of joy.