Heresy 151

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 151, and its continuing sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running for so long?

Well the short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion, or argument if you will, largely concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, and the Stark connection to both – or in short, Winter. The Heresy itself, if there is one, is simply a way of thinking that challenges some of those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.

We’re rather encouraged in this scepticism by therecent release of GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993 which does indeed confirm the walkers being created rather than born – hence the Craster’s sons business – and just as importantly suggests that the matter of Jon Snow’s parentage has nothing to do with the Targaryen succession or indeed any other kind of promised prince...

Beyond that, read on.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Voice]

From last thread:

Ooh. I'm not gonna lie, I got chills.

I wonder, is it conceivable that the Winterfell weirwood's roots spread down into the lowest levels of the crypts?

Hodor's afraid of something down there, and it's not the dark.

When Bran/Hodor sees the Singer, all tangled in the roots, try to speak, Hodor freaks the HELL OUT. He "stirs down in his pit".

Envision this: our intrepid stable boy, wandering down into the deepest, darkest part of the crypts, bold as you please. And what does he find, way, way down at the very black bottom? Frail and pale and cadaverous, he sees a half-dead Lyanna Stark enthroned. Stirring, wheezing, her bony limbs bound up in thick white roots, her hair brittle like ash and straw. Her twisted, wrinkled mouth tries to speak, and Hodor, traumatized, bolts for the safety of the surface, never quite the same again.

If nothing else, this is some quality fan fiction. :lol:

Glad you dug the idea :)

[Black Crow]

And to start off, the new information now in the public domain:

Full text of GRRM's letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza [nailed to a wall we understand in Harper Collins' front office]:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but intriguingly, as I recalled, there was a passage written in very similar style which appeared a couple of years ago purporting to be a publisher’s synopsis for Winds of Winter and which Redrose has very helpfully dug out of the ether. As you can see its both very similar in style and entirely consistent, so if it isn’t the redacted passage its something very similar.

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Voice]

Edited To Redact

[Black Crow]

I'm a little sceptical as always as to efforts at redaction, especially given the scope for missing words changing the meaning and as the passage in question, unlike the others, isn't in the public domain the Mods have had a conference and asked us to leave it alone - shutting down at least one thread devoted to it.

I rather we didn't suffer the same fate, especially as so much other and different stuff is woven in and around our discussions here.

[Voice]

Oops again. I'll redact my comment on redaction :D

[Voice]

but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others

As crazy and different as her arc was once going to be apparently, I have to say, this tidbit helps me understand unCat a bit more. It looks like GRRM was originally going to have her rise again as a wight, but instead she's Lady Stoneheart. Perhaps the southron migration of her character was the eventual impetus for unBeric and unGregor. It may have even given rise to R'hllorism in GRRM's mind, and Cold Hands. Quite interesting. Move one strand and the whole web changes.

[Eira Seren]

Carrying over. . .

JNR, on 11 Feb 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

I agree that was certainly his thinking then, but it seems hard to believe it still is.

Back then, he planned a trilogy, and he planned for Jon and Arya to develop a passion early in it, and for that passion (as you quote above) to torment them "throughout the trilogy," which is to say the whole series.

Well, in 2015 we're five books into what seems a seven-book series and if Arya is frequently falling asleep at night after having a splendid orgasm thinking about her forbidden brother Jon, I've missed all the references. In both of their heads, there seems a certain amount of platonic affection, hair-mussing memories, and that's about it.

:laugh: No, I think you'd certainly have noticed. . . .

As to the proposed connection between Jon and Arya through Lyanna, I agree that could have been GRRM's thinking then... I just can't make a solid case for it. To do so requires Jon to have looked as totally like a Stark in 1993 as he does now, and I just don't know that was the case. All we know is that he and Arya thought their love could not be, and then apparently, they edited out the not.

Do you mean that Jon looking too much like Arya would've given it away, or been too much like Cersei and Jamie, who he perhaps hadn't yet decided to twin at that point? Because, imo, that's turned into a much better playout for that storyline than Jon/Arya.

The Snowfyre Chorus, on 11 Feb 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Five Year Gaps weren't nearly so difficult to come by in ancient storytelling. Readers were much less sophisticated. Authors routinely blamed inconsistencies on palimpsests, lacunae, and misguided recensions. Cop outs? Of course! But people were, sort of, fine with that 8,000 yrs ago. Most of them couldn't read for themselves, anyway.

But that shit doesn't fly these days. Enter Bran: full-fledged greenseer, age 9. I know, it feels rushed. Take it up with modern first-world literacy.

Nope. We want to see what Bran had for breakfast, thank you very much. And Meera better post those pics of the greenseers in the cave on her Facebook or we'll unfriend her. . . GRRM's worst enemy isn't perhaps time, but us rabid fans. . . The biggest issue seems to be how he'll bring Arya back, really, I wonder if there's any incentive to do so at this point. Perhaps she could be of better use to the story elsewhere. Perhaps a representative of ice should be going south. . .

[Eira Seren]

wolfmaid7, Posted Yesterday, 01:13 PM

We will have to disagree then,and i do see your point.Mine is a matter of perception and what maybe known and unknown. To the world the LH may very well have gone in search"of his own accord" and that is 100% true.The preceding is what i'm desputing. The unknown is that i went looking " because"unknown to you guys a talking crow or tree told me i should come.

In that time and environment he was in i doubt it would have gone down well for him, if he had said " a talking tree and or Crow told me to find them" versus i'm going to find the children and beg for their help.

Both scenarios and conclusion stll intact what's different is the why and i still think he went looking because he too was contacted.

This could be, though if the greenseer contacting both is in the Winterfell Crypts, why would Bran end up going so far north? Why wouldn't he have gone deeper under Winterfell? (And why does Jon seem to be the one hearing that call?)

[Voice]

This could be, though if the greenseer contacting both is in the Winterfell Crypts, why would Bran end up going so far north? Why wouldn't he have gone deeper under Winterfell? (And why does Jon seem to be the one hearing that call?)

While Bran's story echoes the Last Hero's, it is still a different story. The Last Hero was drawn to Winterfell, like Jon. Bran is being drawn to his specific hollow by BR. I think wolfmaid is saying Bran's been duped by Jojen/BR/3EC, rather than heed the calling from his own heart tree.

[Black Crow]

As to the synopsis stuff which is in the public domain, the caveat has once again to be added that this was what GRRM intended for his then trilogy, away back in 1993, and that the story has not only expanded but done so in new and interesting directions not contemplated back in 1993.

I would, however, summarise what still appear to be the core elements:

Notwithstanding the expansion the story has three major elements; the first being the struggle between the rival houses of Stark and Lannister. Varys, Littlefinger and other conspirators aren't mentioned, but I don't think their presence and influence in the book changes anything. It expands and deepens the Stark/Lannister story but ultimately this is still going to be the story of how the two families suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and wounds inflicted on them by others, such as Varys and Littlefinger, as well as by each other.

The question of Jon Snow the bastard is very firmly placed within this primary element.

The second element/volume concerns the invasion and conquest of Westeros by the last of the Dragonlords, one Danaerys Targaryen, who is definitely not of this parish; the premise presumably being that she succeeds at least in part because the realm has been weakened by the struggle between Stark and Lannister. I can't help avoid the suspicion that this element may have changed and in the context of that apparent volume 3 synopsis what was originally planned for her has been acted out in Mereen rather than Westeros, with young Aegon substituting for her in Westeros. Its possible that her invasion could still be rushed in, but the change, if there is one, might be a positioning move for the journey into the heart of fire business.

And so we come to the third element and heretic favourite; the others.

What I think is interesting here, as I said right at the beginning when it first appeared, is the mystery and that its this mystery rather than what appears to be the almost inconsequential business of Jon Snow's bastardy, which is going to be "central" to the story. The protagonists in the first volume are the Starks and the Lannisters, then out east we have Danaerys the Dragonlord shaping up as Westeros' version of Attila the Hun, but then at the last we have the "inhuman" others creating their armies of the neverborn and the dead. What I still think may be important here is the mystery of who they are which is why I'm so much inclined towards that link more recently hinted at by GRRM between them and the "inhuman" three-fingered tree-huggers. It is this, I suspect, and the Stark connection which is the "central" mystery at the end rather than the supposed R+L=J : Prince, of which there is not the slightest hint in either synopsis.

[Black Crow]

This could be, though if the greenseer contacting both is in the Winterfell Crypts, why would Bran end up going so far north? Why wouldn't he have gone deeper under Winterfell? (And why does Jon seem to be the one hearing that call?)

Yes, I agree but perhaps this may go back to Wolfmaid's refrain about different factions among the children. As it happens I'm not convinced on that and think that's going to unduly complicate matters, especially if the "inhuman" others and "inhuman" children do turn out to be one and the same. There's no doubt that Bran has been decoyed north under false pretences by the Crow and GRRM's synopsis as well as the written text point to the possibility of him literally going over to the dark side.

However its perhaps considering at this point the seemingly contradictory business of the Stark connection to Winter and their slaying of children and greenseers during their conquests. I've suggested before that the Nights King story may simply be a metaphor for the breaking of an old alliance between the Starks and the other lot. In that context therefore and with no real idea of what lies down there, the crypt dreams may simply be a way of telling Jon that he is truly a son of Winterfell and that as such it is his duty to deal with his cousin, the new "Nights King", just as that un-named Stark of Winterfell did long ago.

[Eira Seren]

While Bran's story echoes the Last Hero's, it is still a different story. The Last Hero was drawn to Winterfell, like Jon. Bran is being drawn to his specific hollow by BR. I think wolfmaid is saying Bran's been duped by Jojen/BR/3EC, rather than heed the calling from his own heart tree.

If that's the case, and Jojen and Meera swore an oath to House Stark. . . . something's not right there. . .

oathbreaking in that scenario could cause some fairly serious consequences. Unless they are trying to save Bran. . .

JNR Posted Yesterday, 07:17 PM

I think they both do.

Actually, I picture them having gone back and forth about this so many times, they're like... us. Meeting Bran would mean they could look for evidence to confirm or deny a theory (just as we will all do on reading the next book).

The interesting thing to me is the way their interpretations match their natures. Jojen tends to be rather passive, so he imagines the little crannogman acting the same way.

Meera tends to think the opposite -- that taking action is better than not taking action. Sure enough, in her interpretation the little crannogman got off his ass and got busy.

:cheers: Very nice. This definitely repairs some of the damage done by the fireballs, at least now when I read this part again I won't be seeing that in my mind so much.

[Black Crow]

While Bran's story echoes the Last Hero's, it is still a different story. The Last Hero was drawn to Winterfell, like Jon. Bran is being drawn to his specific hollow by BR. I think wolfmaid is saying Bran's been duped by Jojen/BR/3EC, rather than heed the calling from his own heart tree.

Nah, we've no reason at all to suppose that the last of the heroes was drawn to Winterfell. We've seen there are hollow hills all over the place, so the fact that Winterfell is built on top of one is not reason in itself to believe that was where the hero went - although iit may well be where he came from, given that the timeline very firmly places the building of Winterfell before the Long Night, whether the latter was 6,000 years ago or even the 8,000 years ago we were originally told. As we've discussed the dates and perhaps especially those told to Catelyn Tully when she moved north are not to be taken literally but its quite clear that she was told Winterfell goes back before the Long Night.

[Eira Seren]

Yes, I agree but perhaps this may go back to Wolfmaid's refrain about different factions among the children. As it happens I'm not convinced on that and think that's going to unduly complicate matters, especially if the "inhuman" others and "inhuman" children do turn out to be one and the same. There's no doubt that Bran has been decoyed north under false pretences by the Crow and GRRM's synopsis as well as the written text point to the possibility of him literally going over to the dark side.

However its perhaps considering at this point the seemingly contradictory business of the Stark connection to Winter and their slaying of children and greenseers during their conquests. I've suggested before that the Nights King story may simply be a metaphor for the breaking of an old alliance between the Starks and the other lot. In that context therefore and with no real idea of what lies down there, the crypt dreams may simply be a way of telling Jon that he is truly a son of Winterfell and that as such it is his duty to deal with his cousin, the new "Nights King", just as that un-named Stark of Winterfell did long ago.

thanks for that thought. It does seem like a distinct possibility that suddenly the remaining Starks are finding themselves at the heart of a little tug-of-war. when was the last time that Stark power crumbled so quickly? Maybe we'll get that story someday, but the idea of a weakened Westeros, and the idea of the Starks breaking their alliances with the NK story and the idea of the Starks in a crumbling state, now. . . that's a parallel that seems to fit with the need to address what else lies in wait in the north. Am going to sleep now, happy heresy.

[Black Crow]

but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others

As crazy and different as her arc was once going to be apparently, I have to say, this tidbit helps me understand unCat a bit more. It looks like GRRM was originally going to have her rise again as a wight, but instead she's Lady Stoneheart.

One dark night as the cold winds are rising, Lord Snow is woken by a scratching on his chamber door... :devil:

[Voice]

Nah, we've no reason at all to suppose that the last of the heroes was drawn to Winterfell. We've seen there are hollow hills all over the place, so the fact that Winterfell is built on top of one is not reason in itself to believe that was where the hero went - although iit may well be where he came from, given that the timeline very firmly places the building of Winterfell before the Long Night, whether the latter was 6,000 years ago or even the 8,000 years ago we were originally told. As we've discussed the dates and perhaps especially those told to Catelyn Tully when she moved north are not to be taken literally but its quite clear that she was told Winterfell goes back before the Long Night.

No reason, except it makes sense.

[Voice]

One dark night as the cold winds are rising, Lord Snow is woken by a scratching on his chamber door... :devil:

Oh yeah, she'd definitely be paying him a visit. Show him how much she needs his absolution :D

[Daenerys Flint]

Does anyone think the Jon - Arya matchup will still happen? That was a massive revelation for me.. now I'm expecting some kind of weird Wolf hook-up between Jon-Ghost & Arya-Nymeria

[Black Crow]

Its a good question, she's growing up and we know that [1] she knows that Jon is Lord Commander on the wall and murdered Daeron for deserting him, and [2] there appears to be a well established sea route between Braavos and Eastwatch, so I think its highly likely she ends up there.