Dragon in the North Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Thank you. Sansa being in WF is the biggest plot hole to me. I really hate when book readers use words like plot hole to describe a change they don't like. A plot hole is an inconsistency that goes against the logic already established in the show. This does not describe the Winterfell plot. In the show, Littlefinger has always taken great risks to achieve his ambitions. Littlefinger's plan may be stupid in the end, but that is not a plot hole, because people are fully capable of making stupid mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I really hate when book readers use words like plot hole to describe a change they don't like. A plot hole is an inconsistency that goes against the logic already established in the show. This does not describe the Winterfell plot. In the show, Littlefinger has always taken great risks to achieve his ambitions. Littlefinger's plan may be stupid in the end, but that is not a plot hole, because people are fully capable of making stupid mistakes. I really hate when show watchers claim that every single criticism levelled at the show is because things are different from the books. I call it a plot hole because it makes no sense. Sansa does not need to be in Winterfell for LF's plan to work. Putting Sansa in Winterfell just endangers her and risks turning Sansa against LF. She is a valuable game piece. It is a needless risk. And I do not buy that it is a simple mistake, because LF is supposed to be a clever man, both in books and in show. Also, it does not take an intelligent person to spot the flaw in LF's plan. Edit: For the record, I have no problem with the show making changes. In fact, this season, I was looking forward to having more changes to eliminate some of the less interesting book material. But this season has been the worst thus far. So I will criticise something when it doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 If we are basing the show on pure entertainment value, it probably peaked at Blackwater. That's not to say that it's been downhill all the way - there has still been some excellent episodes in season 3 - but they have never topped S2 Ep9 and I sincerely doubt they ever will. I really hate when show watchers claim that every single criticism levelled at the show is because things are different from the books. I call it a plot hole because it makes no sense. Sansa does not need to be in Winterfell for LF's plan to work. Putting Sansa in Winterfell just endangers her and risks turning Sansa against LF. She is a valuable game piece. It is a needless risk. And I do not buy that it is a simple mistake, because LF is supposed to be a clever man, both in books and in show. Also, it does not take an intelligent person to spot the flaw in LF's plan. Edit: For the record, I have no problem with the show making changes. In fact, this season, I was looking forward to having more changes to eliminate some of the less interesting book material. But this season has been the worst thus far. So I will criticise something when it doesn't make sense.Littlefinger's plan actually does make some kind of sense, but only so long as nobody takes any action against it. LF claims to thrive on chaos, but exists in a world in which no one ever countermands him to protect their own interests other than Varys. Sansa and Roose Bolton are two of the more egregious examples of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Littlefinger's plan actually does make some kind of sense, but only so long as nobody takes any action against it. LF claims to thrive on chaos, but exists in a world in which no one ever countermands him to protect their own interests other than Varys. Sansa and Roose Bolton are two of the more egregious examples of this. I really don't think LF's plan makes sense, for various reasons, but I'm prepared to eat my words if at the end of the story, it all makes sense. But for the life of me, I cannot think of a single good reason to actually put Sansa in Winterfell. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd be prepared to bet that I'm not. If I actually had money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyxw Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 After the terrible character that was Talisa, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. I bought into the Talisa Honeypot thing after I heard about it because I couldn't believe that they could actually write a character that bad. As far as I'm aware George was involved in that including the name. Mayhaps not in pregnancy and murder but it worked fine on the show. At least it wasn't a disaster by any stretch of imagination now was it. Everyone acknowledges that Dorne has been a mess (so far). It's plot lines like Winterfell, which have actually been quite strong on the show, that are getting criticism from many quarters simply because they deviate from the books. I wouldn't say Winterfell has been excellent but it hasn't been bad either and I think some book readers tend to equate changes to disasters quite naturally. In the case of winterfell it certainly doesn't deserve that many critics - Acting, dialogs and most of the story has been fine. Wall has been excellent while winterfell isn't bad. If the general public can't see the innumerable plot holes that's their problem. There's certainly been some good acting, I'm not going to deny that. And if they really had to cut out Mance's infiltration of Winterfell Brienne is a good enough replacement. However honestly I don't think most of the audience is getting much enjoyment out of hating the Boltons (most seem to just consider their story gratuitous torture porn). And the plot objectively makes no sense. I mean let's look at it shall we? Littlefinger parades Sansa about in broad daylight, basically committing treason openly. How has Cersei not found out about this? Does she not have spies? Or at the very least has no one - thinking to make a few gold dragons - taken the information back to her? Then there's the fact that Roose really has no reason to make himself complicit in LF's scheming. He's risking his entire position in the Lannister Axis of Evil. He gets to solidify his position somewhat, but is that really worth it going behind the Lannister's backs? Also how does LF not know about what a monster Ramsay is? Then Cersei calls LF back to KL because she has "urgent need of him." First of all, Cersei thinks LF is still in the Vale, so the time it takes for him to get to KL should be way longer (like weeks or months) than Cersei would be expecting: She should be suspicious. Then it turns out that she doesn't have any urgent need of him - all important information in their conversation this week was bought up by LF. So that was clearly a contrivance to have Sansa be alone in WF. Then there's the fact that if indeed Cersei's spies are as incompetent as they seem - Sansa doesn't actually need to be at WF for LF's plan to work. He could literally just keep Sansa safe in the Eyrie, and lie to Cersei about her being in WF with the Boltons, Cersei's response would be exactly the same. So why is he risking Sansa - the most valuable bargaining chip in Westeros? She could be flayed alive or killed in the fighting when Stannis gets there. Couldn't LF just wait until after the fighting and then offer Sansa to the victor? Solidifying the unsure position of whoever wins? Why does Cersei take him on his word with this anyway? She goes on a rant far more suited to book Cersei than to our wise Queen Mother Carol. Good point - I guess she doesn't but then again what would they do with her in the vale? Not much happens in the books for her at the vale that can be used on screen. I guess Dorne is their achilles heel this time while the rest could be better it certainly isn't the worst. They could use a couple more characters/stories though which would happen when Bran comes back next season and they might explore the walkers as well. Those cold icy scenes really look good on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 As far as I'm aware George was involved in that including the name. Mayhaps not in pregnancy and murder but it worked fine on the show. At least it wasn't a disaster by any stretch of imagination now was it. George simply gave them permission to change the name of the character because they had already changed so much anyway. Regardless, she was a terrible character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daske Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Having attended the London Comicon this weekend it's clear that Game of Thrones is still massively popular. Daenerys of all shapes and sizes was probably the number one recognisable Cosplay character there (apart from 'generic Jedi'). There were at least a couple of whole GoT groups knocking about too who looked fantastic and were staying in character most of the time. Can't tell if there is/has been a peak, but it's obviously a lot of people are still very much into the show, and having a great time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just watched "Hardhome". No, it clearly hasn't peaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dames do Moan Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just watched "Hardhome".No, it clearly hasn't peaked.Yes, just finished it. That was one of my favorite episodes to date. Very well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midi Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just watched "Hardhome".No, it clearly hasn't peaked. I think it just did with Hardhome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnowed Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 All those people who decided to boycott the show just missed one of the best episodes ever, struggling to put any fault on that, gave us something for everyone and was extremely well written and directed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just watched "Hardhome".No, it clearly hasn't peaked. I haven't seen it yet. Put I'm going to put money on the table here and bet that most of the praise is just because there was a cool action sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I haven't seen it yet. Put I'm going to put money on the table here and bet that most of the praise is just because there was a cool action sequence. An extended cool action sequence. Personally, I was more interested in Arya's story (her screentime has been significantly reduced this season) or Tyrion/Dany. Still, the Hardhome action sequences were very well done and it was overall a strong episode. Not my favourite though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 An extended cool action sequence. Personally, I was more interested in Arya's story (her screentime has been significantly reduced this season) or Tyrion/Dany. Still, the Hardhome action sequences were very well done and it was overall a strong episode. Not my favourite though. I mean I don't doubt it will be fun to watch. But I can't help feel as though compared to the other two big battles in the show, this one is going to be the most unearned to me and simply there to provide some action in an otherwise plodding season. And it certainly gets on my nerves that people claim that there is not enough time to faithfully adapt everything and then the show puts in a huge 20 minute battle that wasn't shown on page in the books. 20 minutes is like 6 or 7 scenes. 20 minutes is enough to provide a specific character or plot line with two or three episodes of material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I mean I don't doubt it will be fun to watch. But I can't help feel as though compared to the other two big battles in the show, this one is going to be the most unearned to me and simply there to provide some action in an otherwise plodding season. And it certainly gets on my nerves that people claim that there is not enough time to faithfully adapt everything and then the show puts in a huge 20 minute battle that wasn't shown on page in the books. 20 minutes is like 6 or 7 scenes. 20 minutes is enough to provide a specific character or plot line with two or three episodes of material. watch it. The action is amazing, no doubt. But it does far, far more than it. It introduces the grand antogonists of the saga to an extent that the Books have not even come close to, with the exception of Old Nan's tales way back when, and tales were they. EVERYTHING else in seasons 1- 5 AND books 1-5 is inside baseball compared to Jon Snow eyeballing the Nights King. Stark Targaeryan versus Stark. This may sting a little, and it doesn't magically erase the errors of D&D. But by god, have they got their eyes on the ENDGAME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Clearly with last night's episode the show had in fact NOT peaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I haven't seen it yet. Put I'm going to put money on the table here and bet that most of the praise is just because there was a cool action sequence. It wasn't just the action, it was seeing the WW in their full glory. It's the battle we SHOULD have seen at the fist of the first men, but GRRM cheated us of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Well I saw it and it was pretty much as I expected. A fun action sequence in an otherwise mediocre episode. Not really deserving of much praise. The fight scene itself was decent, not brilliant. I don't know how this is in anyway a stepup from Black Water of Castle Black. And a shade too much shaky cam for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 It wasn't just the action, it was seeing the WW in their full glory. It's the battle we SHOULD have seen at the fist of the first men, but GRRM cheated us of it. I think it's pretty obvious that the books are eventually going to give us detailed battles against the wights, so why did he need to show us the Fist of the First Men? The retreat of the NW from the Fist, pursued by the Others, combined with Sam's flashbacks was absolutely haunting and full of suspense - GRRM knows exactly when and how to write horror. If anyone cheated us out of the Fist of the First Men battle, it was D&D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think it's pretty obvious that the books are eventually going to give us detailed battles against the wights, so why did he need to show us the Fist of the First Men? The retreat of the NW from the Fist, pursued by the Others, combined with Sam's flashbacks was absolutely haunting and full of suspense - GRRM knows exactly when and how to write horror. If anyone cheated us out of the Fist of the First Men battle, it was D&D. Eventually Its 20 years since GRRM wrote a substantive passage about the main antagonists of his series. He has to all intents and purposes forgotten about them. D&D at least seem to know what the core of this story is, and THAT is the primary success of this episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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