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Heresy 152 [Spoilers]


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Welcome to Heresy 152, and its continuing sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.



So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running for so long?



The short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion, or argument if you will, largely concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, and the Stark connection to both – or in short, Winter. The Heresy itself, is not a particular belief or set of beliefs, but simply a way of thinking that openly challenges some of those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.



We are of course rather encouraged in this scepticism by the recent release of GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993 [below] which does indeed confirm the walkers being created rather than born – hence the Craster’s sons business – and just as importantly confirms that the overall story and its outcome does not revolve around the revealing of Jon Snow’s parentage, although it does confirm that he is not Lord Eddard Stark’s bastard and is therefore free to get it on with his cousin Arya.



Beyond that, read on.



If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.



Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.




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And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:



October 1993



Dear Ralph,



Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.



As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.



Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.



The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.



While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.



The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.



The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.



Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.



This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.



I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.



Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.



Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.



Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.



Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.



Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.



Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.



[7 Lines Redacted]



But that's the second book...



I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.



All best,


George R.R. Martin





What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis for Winds of Winter not the forthcoming one but apparently dating from when it was to be the third volume of the trilogy set out above:





Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

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1. That Rhaegar left before the birth of the baby doesn't mean that he would leave said baby undefended. Rhaegar is functioning on a prophetic level. We don't know why he felt this baby would be important (aside from the fact that it was his baby). He could have believed that this kid would be the ultimate heir, or the totally necessary third head of the dragon, or a savior reborn, or the master chef who discovers how to make ice cream. For some reason, he felt this kid would be important, and asked the guard to protect it. His behavior toward his wife and kids under his dad's care, of course, was despicable, but then this is Rhaegar. Man makes no sense.

2. The KG, as you say, would then protect the kid, whether Rhaegar is alive or not. They didn't go to war, and their prince was defeated. This is his last request from them. As far as believing that the only heir could be Viserys, hence this kid is out of the running--that's really questionable. Heirs are fluid in this world, and nothing is set in stone. However, their knowledge that this is the only living child of Rhaegar would make them more willing to protect it.

3. Westeros is medically pre-modern, so there are no civilized medical facilities. There is no cure for infection. We don't know if Lyanna had decent care while giving birth. Even if she had the best of care Westeros and Essos could provide, her odds of dying of infection would be high.3

It'd be pretty strange for Rhaegar to go through all of this trouble and not ensure that Lyanna has decent care for the birth. As you said this is a pre-modern medicine world where countless women likely die from complications during birth (doubly so since Rhaegar's own wife's last birth supposedly was a close thing).

Personally, I don't see why something valuable has to be in the tower for the KG to be there. We're told Ned found them there and that afterwards he had the tower pulled down. For all we know their orders were to hold the road to give someone more time and the tower was the most logical place to do so.

Ned presumably takes his time getting to the tower. He's sent to King's Landing in Robert's place because Robert is too injured from the Battle of the Trident. He finds a lot to take in as we all know, and we also know he waits for Robert there.

From there he goes to lift the Tyrell siege of Storm's End. Tyrell immediately bends the knee but we can reasonably assume that means more that Mace Tyrell bowing and Ned going "Well that's done then, let's do lunch." There'd be terms to discuss, there's Stannis' troops half-dead from starvation to be seen to.

It is after this that Ned and co. come upon the tower.

Now that's a LOT of time to decide what to do. If there is something valuable in that tower, be it a baby heir or the secret recipe for Frey Pie, why keep it there? What point is there in waiting?

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Yes, we are! :cheers: I am so happy Heresy is taking a closer look at this; I think it's a very intriguing sub-plot which unfortunately is difficult to discuss elsewhere on the forum.


So with that, back to it!




1. That Rhaegar left before the birth of the baby doesn't mean that he would leave said baby undefended. Rhaegar is functioning on a prophetic level. We don't know why he felt this baby would be important (aside from the fact that it was his baby). He could have believed that this kid would be the ultimate heir, or the totally necessary third head of the dragon, or a savior reborn, or the master chef who discovers how to make ice cream. For some reason, he felt this kid would be important, and asked the guard to protect it. His behavior toward his wife and kids under his dad's care, of course, was despicable, but then this is Rhaegar. Man makes no sense.



2. The KG, as you say, would then protect the kid, whether Rhaegar is alive or not. They didn't go to war, and their prince was defeated. This is his last request from them. As far as believing that the only heir could be Viserys, hence this kid is out of the running--that's really questionable. Heirs are fluid in this world, and nothing is set in stone. However, their knowledge that this is the only living child of Rhaegar would make them more willing to protect it.



3. Westeros is medically pre-modern, so there are no civilized medical facilities. There is no cure for infection. We don't know if Lyanna had decent care while giving birth. Even if she had the best of care Westeros and Essos could provide, her odds of dying of infection would be high.




Agreed, they would protect him. But why would they bring him to the TOJ? Protecting him would be to hide him somewhere, on a farm maybe or across the narrow sea. Like Darry did with Viserys and Dany. Yes they are proud, but if the order was to protect the baby, they're doing it wrong.






The Faithful get excited about it all the time and reckon it means that Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully wed in front of a heart tree on the Isle of Faces




Oh dear. I promise that's not where I was going with this, lol! The proximity to the Isle, combined with Lyanna's new friendship with Howland Reed who had been there, may be relevant though.


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Some texts to have on hand:



Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.




He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget.**** In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.......................(got,pg,423)




"He dreamt an old dream


In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life


They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life


He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years(got,pg.427).**** ( my interpretation of this is that he just recently began having these dreams after having them years ago...am i wrong?)




"Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.


And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.



"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming.***** ( was she in birth right at that moment?)



"Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.


"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.


"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "


"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.


Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.


"Lord Eddard?" A shadow stood over the bed.(pg,425)





SSM



Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?



Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if PrinceRhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."



Text:



"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.



"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.


"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.


"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."


"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."(


"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."


"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.


"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."


"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.



"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."



"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.



"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.




"I was with her when she died,"Ned reminded the King............He could still here her sometimes.Promise me,she cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses.Promise me ,Ned. The fever had taken her strength.....................Ned remembered how she smiled then,how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life,rose petals spilling from her palm,dead and black.After that he remebered nothing.They had found him still holding her body,silent with grief.The little Crannogman,Howland Reed,had taken her hand from his.Ned could recall none of it(AGOT,pg.44).


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It'd be pretty strange for Rhaegar to go through all of this trouble and not ensure that Lyanna has decent care for the birth. As you said this is a pre-modern medicine world where countless women likely die from complications during birth (doubly so since Rhaegar's own wife's last birth supposedly was a close thing).

Personally, I don't see why something valuable has to be in the tower for the KG to be there. We're told Ned found them there and that afterwards he had the tower pulled down. For all we know their orders were to hold the road to give someone more time and the tower was the most logical place to do so.

Ned presumably takes his time getting to the tower. He's sent to King's Landing in Robert's place because Robert is too injured from the Battle of the Trident. He finds a lot to take in as we all know, and we also know he waits for Robert there.

From there he goes to lift the Tyrell siege of Storm's End. Tyrell immediately bends the knee but we can reasonably assume that means more that Mace Tyrell bowing and Ned going "Well that's done then, let's do lunch." There'd be terms to discuss, there's Stannis' troops half-dead from starvation to be seen to.

It is after this that Ned and co. come upon the tower.

Now that's a LOT of time to decide what to do. If there is something valuable in that tower, be it a baby heir or the secret recipe for Frey Pie, why keep it there? What point is there in waiting?

I used to like the idea that they were delaying Ned to buy time for someone. But as you pointed out, there was probably a month or so between the sack of KL and Ned arriving at the TOJ. If someone hasn't packed up their crap and moved out in that time, are the 20 minutes that the KG hold up Ned really going to make a difference?

I've mentioned before that, if holding the pass was a goal, Rhaegar should have left 100 normal soldiers instead of the KG. The KG are wasted in such a situation, as their skills can't make up for being outnumbered. You need more than 3 men to hold a mountain pass, Rhaegar surely must have known that.

I agree with your last point! There shouldn't have been anything valuable kept in the tower, and yet I have seen no better explanation for the KG's presence there. It's quite frustrating, really. I know I"m missing something!

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A couple of things that come up repeatedly in these arguements are the following:



1.Kingsguard presence at the TOJ proves:


a. Rhaegar married Lyanna


b. Legitimate heir was present and it could only have been Jon



2. Timeline prove Lyanna "must" have gotten pregnant at the TOJ


a. Are Timelines are 100% accurate.


b. Only Rhaegar could be the father given symbolisms in the texts linking him and Lya.



Have at it


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It'd be pretty strange for Rhaegar to go through all of this trouble and not ensure that Lyanna has decent care for the birth.

This is certainly one of the curiosties, especially if we consider that Ned didn't come busting in to find Rhaegar there as well. He, of course, had left Dorne some months previously, first to return to Kings Landing and then to march north to meet his fate on the Trident, while Ned for his part had come south from the Trident, accepted Kings Landing from the Lannisters, then swung by Storms end to raise the siege and accept the submissions of the Redwynes and the Tyrells and all the other loyalists. Exactly how much time passed from Rhaegar leaving Dorne to Ned's arrival we don't know, but its a pretty long time to expect the three stooges to hang about there on their own, guarding a pregnant young gir when the comforts of Starfall are just a short way further down the road.

Standing sentry is a different matter of course. What else is a watchtower for? Notwithstanding what I wrote in my ronin essay perhaps the simplest explanation of their presence, given GRRM's warning, is that they were watching not for Ned but for an army and had one appeared they might then have hurried down the road to Starfall and away, but as it was when Ned turned up with only six companions they figured they could take him.

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Thanks for all those quotes wm7. There is a good bit to be gleaned from it.

Just circling back to the last thread or two...

Frey family reunion has brought up Howland Reed and his possible part in Lyanna's story in another thread and maybe Heresy too. (I can't recall how much was in which thread and all that.) Adding to that, MaesterSam mentioned the Isle of Faces in relation to Lyanna or Rhaegar and it does seem possible that Howland could have promised Lyanna a visit to the Isle that would lead her to be vulnerable to abduction so near Harrenhal and the Isle. It's not exactly necessary for the story, but is intriguing.

Saying that, I do think the info from the world book about Lyanna's dissapearance is meant to suggest the Inn at the Crossroads (or very nearby) where quite a few goings-on have occured in the story proper.

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A couple of things that come up repeatedly in these arguements are the following:

a. Are Timelines are 100% accurate.

I'll start with this one, and the answer is a resounding "no, they are not."

It's obvious that GRRM often answers from the POV of a character in the story, or deliberately gives misinformation where the answer may be spoiler. I'm not saying he lies, but he does give answers to questions that are based on what the readers know so far, and not the ultimate truth of it. Some examples of this are the answers given about Aegon before "Aegon" was revealed to be "alive." So who was he talking about in the old SSMs? The true Aegon? The Pisswater Prince? Some other baby?

He says he has a "policy of deliberate vagueness."

When asked about ages, he says most don't matter but that he does try to "nail it down in my private notes where ages are important."

So, I need to ask myself, where are the ages important? No one really cares the ages of the adults, or the small children. What really matters is the ages of a very few characters.

Lyanna's baby, let's call him Jon, is one of them. If we believe GRRM that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany, then he is older than Robb, and was born sometime around the Sack. This is a problem if we are to believe Lyanna died in childbirth or of childbirth complications and fever...a month or so later.

Pushing Jon's birth (conception) later ruins the whole beginning of the timeline, and gives almost no time for Rhaegar to snatch Lyanna and then the murders of Brandon and Rickard, and then the lead up to the Battle of the Bells.

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...Saying that, I do think the info from the world book about Lyanna's dissapearance is meant to suggest the Inn at the Crossroads (or very nearby) where quite a few goings-on have occured in the story proper.

I still haven't retrieved my copy of the World Book from elder son's cave so don't recall exactly what was said about the place of Lyanna's abduction but it would certainly be ironic if it arose from a chance met encounter at the inn, just as Tyrion was later to be snatched by Catelyn: Indeed such an encounter would explain a lot if Lyanna came breezing in with all the thoughtful carelessness of youth and recognised the hooded figure huddled conspiratorial like in the corner as the dashing Prince Rhaegar who was supposed to be in Kings Landing.

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Carrying from other thread...



MaesterSam, yes, I do believe that there is a Rhaegar/Reed/IoF connection that doesn't involve polygamous 2nd marriages and wandering septons and all that. I've never really understood how it came to be that a woods witch, a child of the forest, could appear at court with Jenny of Oldstones and deliver a prophetic statement that two Targaryen kings and one crown prince could take so seriously that they bend their dynasty to it. Why would the blood of old Valyria give two figs about some rubbish spouted by some eccentric fairy woman? And what concern does the eccentric fairy woman have with the blood of old Valyria anyway? Why does she give a hoot what the Targaryne royal family does or doesn't do? The children of the forest/old gods and the dragonlords without dragons, ne'er the twain should meet, right?



Which leads me to believe that, in order for her prophecy to carry any weight with Jaehaerys, they did meet.....and will meet again...and somehow the epicenter of everything is there at the God's Eye Whatever the woods witch foretold that day, it resonated - and I firmly believe that this was backed up by whatever Rhaegar found in the scrolls years later and was why he set out for the Riverlands with his Band of Seven in the dead of winter.



If you have the Maps book and use the 100 league-length of the Wall for scale, there's only one noteable location "ten leagues from Harrenhal" where supposedly Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna: the Isle of Faces. IMO that was his ultimate destination, though it had nothing to do with getting hitched in a secret tree ceremony.


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It'd be pretty strange for Rhaegar to go through all of this trouble and not ensure that Lyanna has decent care for the birth. As you said this is a pre-modern medicine world where countless women likely die from complications during birth (doubly so since Rhaegar's own wife's last birth supposedly was a close thing).

Having a Maester to attend births, sickness, injury, is not an unknown concept in Dorne, and at the least the royal house knows their worth. However, it seems that in Dorne the most skilled midwives are of the Orphans of the Greenblood.

A woman of high birth (and especially of high importance) would absolutely have a Maester or midwife....unless the survival of the mother and baby didn't matter (?). Great point about Elia, who might have died without care.

I mention Dornish practices because I presume they would have found someone close by. There is no mention that Wylla is a midwife as well as a wetnurse, but I can't think of another named character who could possibly have attended.

We do have the precedent of a noble woman bringing her own Maester along. Cat brings Luwin to Winterfell, of course.

But what of Walys Flowers, Lyanna's own Maester, who disappeared around the same time as she did? The same Walys Flowers who is related to Gerold Hightower.

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This is certainly one of the curiosties, especially if we consider that Ned didn't come busting in to find Rhaegar there as well. He, of course, had left Dorne some months previously, first to return to Kings Landing and then to march north to meet his fate on the Trident, while Ned for his part had come south from the Trident, accepted Kings Landing from the Lannisters, then swung by Storms end to raise the siege and accept the submissions of the Redwynes and the Tyrells and all the other loyalists. Exactly how much time passed from Rhaegar leaving Dorne to Ned's arrival we don't know, but its a pretty long time to expect the three stooges to hang about there on their own, guarding a pregnant young gir when the comforts of Starfall are just a short way further down the road.

Standing sentry is a different matter of course. What else is a watchtower for? Notwithstanding what I wrote in my ronin essay perhaps the simplest explanation of their presence, given GRRM's warning, is that they were watching not for Ned but for an army and had one appeared they might then have hurried down the road to Starfall and away, but as it was when Ned turned up with only six companions they figured they could take him.

If the tower is simply a tower, why does Rhaegar name it the tower of joy? If it's just a landmark, why does Ned tear it down after the battle is over? Seems an extreme thing to do to a tower that never did anyone any harm.

The three knights Ned battles are important people. Arthur Dayne is one of the best fighters in the realm, and Rhaegar's best friend. Why would Rhaegar leave him behind to guard a dusty road in Dorne? Is there reason to assume that Dayne would side with Aerys over Rhaegar?

Re Ned in Dorne: Heading to the tower, then to Starfall, wouldn't be that crazy. You're Ned, with your sister's newborn, at the now-wrecked tower of joy. You can't go north, as you're also the new king's right-hand man. Starfall, though, you're familiar with. You bring the sword, you bring the baby, and you ship the baby and a wetnurse north from there.

Re Lyanna and the birth: we don't know if she had decent care for the birth or not, in the same way we don't know what the Tower was like on the inside. I'm guessing that she did, and died despite it. Women died in childbirth often, and medical care didn't make a hell of a difference at this point in history. See Jane Seymour, who was given the best care possible, as she was carrying Henry's heir, yet died of fever two weeks after the birth, anyway.

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I was poking around maps because of the mention of the IoF (that is VERY interesting information btw!).



Anyway... does anyone find the Blackwood's sigil particularly strange (in light of the discussion we're all having about missing babies, babies born under strange circumstances, switched babies etc) in that it shows....



a vulture with a baby in its claws?



Blackwood is close to Starfall and the ToJ. Even closer to the ToJ is Vulture's Roost, a ruin, which I believe was occupied by...



King Benedict Blackmont, who "worshipped a dark god and was said to have the power to transform himself into a vulture of enormous size." After she defeated him, Nymeria sent him to the Wall, along with five other kings.



Bizarro.


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Oddly, one of the scenarios that fits is a falling out between Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne.



IE Arthur is upset over the kidnapping and treatment of Lyanna so there's a fight between them. Rhaegar heads back to KL. Arthur and KG hide out at TOJ with Lyanna. They sulk at the tower of joy like Achilles in the Iliad.



A + L = J?


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A thought experiment, which may be worth your while:

History is written by the victor(s). And our primary source for the idea that "R+L"... is Robert Baratheon. He's tall. He's formidable in battle. He's the king, after he takes out the Targs. And most of all... he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

So, what if he's wrong? What if he's completely off-base with his memory / assumption of what happened to Lyanna, back in the day - and always was? We don't know what evidence he had to convince him she was kidnapped. In fact, it's dubitable that he would have required evidence at all - so perhaps we shouldn't assume there was any to begin with.

If Robert (the "victor," in a direct sense) were eliminated as a source for the argument that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark... then what independent evidence for that story would remain to us? Would there be any at all? Would it be convincing, in any way, of the notion that R+L=J?

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I still haven't retrieved my copy of the World Book from elder son's cave so don't recall exactly what was said about the place of Lyanna's abduction but it would certainly be ironic if it arose from a chance met encounter at the inn, just as Tyrion was later to be snatched by Catelyn: Indeed such an encounter would explain a lot if Lyanna came breezing in with all the thoughtful carelessness of youth and recognised the hooded figure huddled conspiratorial like in the corner as the dashing Prince Rhaegar who was supposed to be in Kings Landing.

The Year of the False Spring entry is what I was referring to with the line

"Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved - and half the realm besides."

Since The Inn is located very near Harrenhal, I thought the inn would be an apt setting for Lyanna's dissapearance.

Catelyn's run-in with Tyrion is one of the main occurrences I thought of too. Along with Arya and the Hound's meet up with Polliver and co., Joffrey and Arya's confrontation, Brienne's ordeal where Gendry steps, and many more I believe.

It's a location visited many times throughout the story.

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Currently, however, we're taking a completely fresh look at the question of R+L=J, free of entrenched opinion and open to new ideas.

Well if you are serious about being open for new ideas...

We are given every indication that Lyanna is more like Arya than Sansa, yet no one has any issue with the idea of Lyanna falling head over heels for a married man because he dropped a crown of roses in her lap. If Lyanna was like Sansa yes, but if she is like Arya, doubtful. Arya would have more in common with a butcher's boy than a crowned prince or in this case, I think with a funny little crannogman, whom unlike Rhaegar she actually develops a relationship with.

Lyanna comes to Howland's rescue with a tourney sword, brings him back to her family, and tends his wounds. Then probably inspired by a song of love, honor and a mystery knight, dons her Knight of the Laughing Tree disguise and defends Howland's honor in the tourney. Despite all of this, the reader never thinks to connect the two as a romantic relationship. Now let's reverse their genders, if Princess Reed was being beset by some hooligans and Ser Stark came to her rescue, brought her back to his family, tended her wounds and then fought for her honor in the tourney, wouldn't the reader perhaps wonder if there may be a romantic relationship blooming between the two? But Martin easily disguises this by relying on the reader's natural assumptions about romantic pairings in a fantasy series. The stud who wins the tourney and gives the lady a crown must be the romantic partner right? Even though there has been no actual real relationship develop between the two.

Rhaegar then returns to his island fortress to be present for the birth of his child, whom he labels the Prince that was Promised. In the meantime what was Lyanna up to? Is it possible that she maintains her relationship with Howland during the intervening months? We also know that when Rhaegar and his six friends finally head to the Riverlands to locate Lyanna she is ten leagues from Harrenhall. Now this is three months (at least) after the Harrenhal tourney, what is Lyanna still doing there? My guess is if Lyanna wanted to follow her heart as opposed to her father's political plans for her then she and Howland could have been secretly married in front of a weirwood. Now it just so happens that in the middle of the lake adjacent to Harrenhal, is the Isle of Faces with a number of Weirwoods who have had practice in witnessing a pact. Howland brings her to the Isle of Faces and marry in front of the same Weirwoods that initially witnessed the pact between the First Men and the Children. My guess is this is the island where Lyanna conceives Jon (and Meera), and after they leave the Isle, perhaps is when Rhaegar and company come upon her (and possibly Howland). Which may be why Brandon is convinced that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

Now why abduct Lyanna? I have a feeling that Rhaegar prior to the tourney realized that she is integral in his song of ice and fire, but may not have realized exactly why. He may have believed that it was his duty to be the father to her child and this child was part of the prophecies that he and some of his coconspirators are trying to bring about (or stop). It wasn't until the Harrenhall tourney that he may have come to the conclusion that Howland is to be the father as opposed to him. (My guess is he may have spied something to make him come to this conclusion when he went out to try and locate the Mystery Knight).

Now a key part to this theory is what exactly is the Prince that was Promised and the song of ice and fire? Like most major events in this series I think it involves human sacrifice. I think Lyanna was brought to the tower and guarded not because Jon is the legal Targaryen heir (which he is surely not) but because he is a prophesized King of the Corn variety. My guess is Rhaegar had originally intended on sacrificing Aegon as well (the dragon requires three heads but that's another theory) and named Lyanna's tower the tower of joy when he learned that she gave birth to twins because this perhaps let his son off the hook as a sacrifice. Which is why when Eddard learns what Rhaegar and company had planned for the children, has such trouble coming to grips with it and why it haunts his dreams. So Eddard and Howland decide to split the two children up, Howland takes Meera with him to Greywater Watch while Eddard takes Jon to Winterfell (protecting children by splitting them up is a theme echoed in at least two other places in the books).

This is also why the Reed's oath of ice and fire echoes the song of ice and fire that Rhaegar was trying to bring about. Interestingly enough, when Jon and Meera do get close to each other at the Queen's crown tower, we get quite the thunderstorm.

This may also explain why Alfie Allen describes Jon's parentage as a Luke Skywalker situation not because Rhaegar is akin to Vader but because Luke and Leiah were twins who were split up for their own protection.

Now I would like to tell BC that Targaryen lineage is completely uninvolved but I have a sneaking suspicion that it may come into play, (like a dragonfly amongst the Reeds). I think Jon may be the first born son of the first born son of Aegon V, but that is another theory for another day.

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