QueenOfVibe Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Broke out the Chivas tonight AND the Reynolds Wrap - Benjen+Ashara=Jon AND... Rhaegar+Lyanna=DANY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrose Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Tywin Lannister is definitely worth a closer look in all of the RLJ analysis. It seems that prior to the rebellion we have quite a number of the high lords playing The Game of Thrones and Tywin is in the thick of it. He tries to marry Jaime of to Lysa Arryn after having Cersei rejected by Aerys as a possible suitor for Rhaeger. He has spent a large part of his life in the vicinity of Rhaeger while he was acting as hand to Aerys and it would not surprise me if it turns out that Rhaeger was acting as a stooge for Tywin when all is said and done.Tywin seems to be playing both sides during the rebellion, hedging his bets so to speak. He ignores pleas for help from Aerys and does not join his forces up with Robert, Ned et al. Yet he must have been out in the arena some where as he reaches kings landing before the rebel forces do. I think he watches and he waits before he plays his hand. He knows if Rhaeger wins the battle then he will likely be made hand again and that Elia will be a dead women walking ( she is sickly after all). However, if the rebels win and he knows that Robert in all likelihood will be made king then he is in a much weaker position to use his children in playing the game of thrones as Robert is betrothed to Lyanna stark. As soon as the war hammer punctured Rhaegers heart on the Trident, the person with the biggest motive to see Lyanna stark dead is Tywin Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Broke out the Chivas tonight AND the Reynolds Wrap - Benjen+Ashara=Jon AND... Rhaegar+Lyanna=DANY!!! A+W+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Tywin Lannister is definitely worth a closer look in all of the RLJ analysis. It seems that prior to the rebellion we have quite a number of the high lords playing The Game of Thrones and Tywin is in the thick of it. He tries to marry Jaime of to Lysa Arryn after having Cersei rejected by Aerys as a possible suitor for Rhaeger. He has spent a large part of his life in the vicinity of Rhaeger while he was acting as hand to Aerys and it would not surprise me if it turns out that Rhaeger was acting as a stooge for Tywin when all is said and done. The better theory, I think, is if Tywin Lannister had been shooting blanks the whole time, which would open up A+J=J, C, & T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Curious for comments on this: When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. What if she made Deaddard promise to kill Jon, as an abomination sired by Rhaegar the Monomaniacal Fruitcake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrose Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 The better theory, I think, is if Tywin Lannister had been shooting blanks the whole time, which would open up A+J=J, C, & T.Yeah, It would be a big main course of irony for Tywin. He has spent his entire life trying to further his house by playing The Game of Thrones and if it did indeed turn out he was a Jaffa, well.....I would chuckle.Just been looking at a map of Westeros as I'm trying to figure where Tywin would be camped with his army during the battle at the Trident?AFAIK no POVs mention the whereabouts of Tywins army except for when we hear he is outside KL knocking on the door asking to come in. How long was he camped outside KL before they open the gates? How long had he been sacking the city before Ned rocks up? This whole scenario smells a bit fishy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 What does a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal have to do with ASoIaF? Not much you say? Well think again and read on. Not necessarily Heresy; but it’s a lonely Friday night, my wife is at work, the kids are…. (I don’t want to know)….and I’m opening a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal that was bottled in the 1970’s. If you are interested on how I come about a bottle from the 70’s; ping me and I’ll tell you. I’ve never really taken time to observe the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle but it is a very ornate and rich in Scottish tradition that includes pictorials of three centuries worth of symbolism; and as I have said it’s a lonely night. Inserted in the packaging is a small fold out that contains a legend that describes the symbols. At first I didn’t think anything about it, but as I read the legend descriptions, I found more and more references to names and places from ASoIaF. For the sake of brevity, I’ll only include those items that can be found within the text and where (appropriate) a few comments to explain what might otherwise be non-discernible. Top PanelCenter Shield: Robert the Bruce on Charger (his horse)Left and Right: Lions rampantTop: CrownBottom: Scottish National Badge Thistle Floral Design Panel No. 1Scottish Ship, a Boars Head and a Flower from an Old Scottish Shield.Center Design: Legendary Spider climbing to its web. Panel No. 2Center Design: Robert the Bruce vs Sir Henry Bohen of Bannockburn, 1314. (More on this one later). Panel No. 3Top Left: The Royal Thistle Panel No. 4Top Left: Lion passant guardantCenter Design: Duke of Monmouth, 1697. Horse and Central Figure from old book binding. Observations Nothing really big here other than to say I might have too much time on my hands if I can read the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle and relate most of it to ASoIaF. There are however, a few interesting items outside of the common names we recognize: Robert the Bruce: Obviously a reference to one Robert “Trouser less Bob” Baratheon.I found it interesting that upon his death, his heart was sent to the Holy Land (1300’s). It made me think of “power in King’s blood”. The Legendary Spider. According to legend Bruce was driven into exile (JonCon looking for Robert at the Battle of the Belles) and hid himself in a cave watching a spider try to make a web time and time again. “If at first you don’t succeed – try, try again. When I first read spider on the packaging I’m immediately thought of spiders on the wall (which we have yet to see). Perhaps the most intriguing pictorial on the Chivas Regal packaging is that of Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn. Amazing how much this looks like Robert and Rhaegar on the Trident - war hammer included. http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-battle-of-bannockburn-ron-embleton.html Side note: I realize that Monmouth doesn’t mean anything; but it made me think of Mormont. Last observation is that there are two references to Thistle….”she sees me”. Conclusions….I really don’t have any other than wondering if GRRM likes Chivas Regal? Thanks for reading.Mace :cheers: ETA: I'd also suggest, especially given what follows, that Mance's interest in Jon stems from the fact that he's got himself a Stark and a thereby a possible route into Winterfell. Did this thinking also go for whoever {may have kidnapped} Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Did this thinking also go for whoever {may have kidnapped} Lyanna? At this point in time I'm still very much inclined to regard Lyanna as political rather than mystical and her abduction tied up in the Game of Thrones rather than the Song of Ice and Fire. Something which bothers me you see is the way its so heavily emphasised that Elia was sickly. Given that the Game of Thrones was being played long before the book opens I'm inclined to ask whether there was more to this than at first appears and whether in fact [1] Elia was not merely ill but dying, and [2] was dying because she was being slowly poisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Tywin Lannister is definitely worth a closer look in all of the RLJ analysis. It seems that prior to the rebellion we have quite a number of the high lords playing The Game of Thrones and Tywin is in the thick of it. He tries to marry Jaime of to Lysa Arryn after having Cersei rejected by Aerys as a possible suitor for Rhaeger. He has spent a large part of his life in the vicinity of Rhaeger while he was acting as hand to Aerys and it would not surprise me if it turns out that Rhaeger was acting as a stooge for Tywin when all is said and done.Tywin seems to be playing both sides during the rebellion, hedging his bets so to speak. He ignores pleas for help from Aerys and does not join his forces up with Robert, Ned et al. Yet he must have been out in the arena some where as he reaches kings landing before the rebel forces do. I think he watches and he waits before he plays his hand. He knows if Rhaeger wins the battle then he will likely be made hand again and that Elia will be a dead women walking ( she is sickly after all). However, if the rebels win and he knows that Robert in all likelihood will be made king then he is in a much weaker position to use his children in playing the game of thrones as Robert is betrothed to Lyanna stark. As soon as the war hammer punctured Rhaegers heart on the Trident, the person with the biggest motive to see Lyanna stark dead is Tywin Lannister. Quite. With Rhaegar dead so too is Tywin's plan to replace Elia with Cersei and it then becomes a question of who marries King Robert - a Stark or a Lannister? Ned as in so much else appears to be the innocent in this but it would be consistent with the way the emphasis in the synopsis on the deadly rivalry between the Starks and the Lannisters and ultimately in the book itself why the Lannisters are so paranoid and ultimately hostile towards the Starks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 What if she made Deaddard promise to kill Jon, as an abomination sired by Rhaegar the Monomaniacal Fruitcake? Or as an abomination sired by something else? Since we know Ned raised Jon safely/kept his parentage secret, and that Ned has buried her bones in the crypts, what else could he have promised? Maybe Ned was supposed to announce to the world who Jon is, but that makes no sense to the story. Maybe Lyanna's bones aren't in the crypt. What else would a dying woman make her brother promise? And what multiple promises would be made and then broken, leading to Ned's constant anguish and nightmares? It may seem a small thing, but I think it's a huge clue to unravelling the Lyanna story. Broke out the Chivas tonight AND the Reynolds Wrap - Benjen+Ashara=Jon AND... Rhaegar+Lyanna=DANY!!! They could still be 8-9 months apart in that scenario! Quite. With Rhaegar dead so too is Tywin's plan to replace Elia with Cersei and it then becomes a question of who marries King Robert - a Stark or a Lannister? Ned as in so much else appears to be the innocent in this but it would be consistent with the way the emphasis in the synopsis on the deadly rivalry between the Starks and the Lannisters and ultimately in the book itself why the Lannisters are so paranoid and ultimately hostile towards the Starks I don't quite get the Tywin involvement in Lyanna's disappearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 I don't quite get the Tywin involvement in Lyanna's disappearance. I'm not suggesting that Tywin was directly involved in Lyanna's abduction but her being knocked up by Rhaegar or anyone else was highly convenient when it came to the Baratheon marriage, especially if her being dead put a belt and braces on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 What else would a dying woman make her brother promise? "Promise me Ned... promise me that bastard Rhaegar died screaming" :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 So,, before the lock on this version of heresy are we further forward or J's parents and the events at the ToJ?I'd say we are, but please bear in mind it was a laurel of blue winter roses, not just blue roses presented by Rhaegar to Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 "Promise me Ned... promise me that bastard Rhaegar died screaming" :devil:Or Promise me Ned.. That you'll get Arthur safely to the wall.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 On to the next song... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 The killer awoke before dawnHe put his boots onHe took a face from the ancient galleryAnd he walked on down the hall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 So,, before the lock on this version of heresy are we further forward or J's parents and the events at the ToJ?I'd say we are, but please bear in mind it was a laurel of blue winter roses, not just blue roses presented by Rhaegar to Lyanna. I'd say some awesome questions were raised. Maybe in the next thread, we can try to nail down the timelines from Harrenhal all the way to the ToJ. I've got a huge problem with the accepted timelines. About those damned blue roses... I think Rhaegar was the one who planned/funded the prizes and the laurels, and he planned it way back in 280 when he sent Oswell to convince Walter Whent to host the tourney. So we need to remember that the blue rose thing did not suddenly happen at the Tourney, they were planned long before then, and had to come from the Winterfell glass gardens somewhere they can be grown. Does this mean someone snuck into Winterfell for them, and that's why Brandon was so pissed? That someone snuck them out of Winterfell as a message about, I don't know, watch your back, or not everyone is loyal there? Unless GRRM skipped a beat somewhere, we're still missing something major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Winter rose = Stark maiden daughter(Keep it simple) ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Winter rose = Stark maiden daughter(Keep it simple) ;). Agreed. But where did they come from, and why did Rhaegar plan them long before the Tourney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 A question for another thread. Time for a lock on this one and to move on to Heresy 153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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