R+L=J v.133

[BearQueen87]

As I have said in several threads, there are two lines of thoughts:

1. Dany will do everything, fight the Others, save the world etc. etc. for which 7 books are nowhere enough.

2. Dany will focus on her Dance while Jon and the other characters deal with the Others, for which 7 books are perfectly fine.

There is a third one.

3. Dany, Jon, Tyrion and all the characters you've come to know and love or know and hate will join forces to try and stop the Others from taking over the world and killing humankind after Westeros realizes that they've been focusing on the wrong damn thing. Several of these characters fight smaller battles against wights, try to reclaim parts of the land that has fallen to #TeamOther ect. A few select characters will engage the Others and their leaders, like the NK, on a more mythic scale and ultimately bring Winter to a close, for which 7 books should be perfectly fine.

Looks like we still fail to see things the same way regarding what Jon will do in Ghost--I still think Jon/Ghost will be our eyes into the world of the Others, and thus Jon will be in Ghost for a while (but I admit you might be right).

I admit you might be right too! But I tend to think that Bran will be our eyes into Otherville.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is a third one.

3. Dany, Jon, Tyrion and all the characters you've come to know and love or know and hate will join forces to try and stop the Others from taking over the world and killing humankind after Westeros realizes that they've been focusing on the wrong damn thing. Several of these characters fight smaller battles against wights, try to reclaim parts of the land that has fallen to #TeamOther ect. A few select characters will engage the Others and their leaders, like the NK, on a more mythic scale and ultimately bring Winter to a close, for which 7 books should be perfectly fine.

We certainly are back in agreement regarding #3. Dany, Jon and Tyrion are the 3HD, and must join as a team to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. And of course, even 3HD cannot do it alone, so they will have help from other characters. GRRM has confirmed that all of the story lines eventually merge in the end.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Cousins marry cousins in Westeros all the time don't they? All the high houses are related at this point and "cousins"

We watched Troy last night. You reminded me of a review that called Patroclus "cousin" all the article :lol:

[Greymoon]

Oh, shiny :)

Back to discussing the possible Great Council in the end.

[...]

The criteria in the kingsmoot were extremely loose.

About your points: they describe Jon and that is why he will be the king. But it does not mean that even a person who checks only a single one of your points might make his claim in the Great Council.

1. As I explained, having the right ancestry will not matter much because most of the quarrel will be about which House is the rightful royal dynasty.

2. I think keeping their reputation clean will be more important. For example Stannis’ deeds will poison the claim of a Baratheon claimant. Lannisters will be generally hated by all. After Doran’s death, Arianne will destroy the neutral stance against the Martells. Dany will be an extremely controversial figure in Westeros. Starks will end up as the good guys as it was originally A Time for Wolves.

3. There might not be so many leaders surviving in the end and among such survivors, few of them are likely press their own claims. They might rather support this claimant or that claimant.

4. This is obviously a huge bonus, especially if those Great Houses were kings in the past.

5. Well, there might be such impostors but if they step up, their claims will be quickly dismissed.

6. Well, absence from the Wot5K and the Second Dance might work as a good point too.

To the bolded part: Yes, but the Iron Born are in theory familiar with elections. The whole of westeros is not, they have never had to choose a king, and the scale (Iron Islands/the whole realm) is quite a bit different.

The right ancestry will matter, because at one point or another some claimants will have ties to a house that sat on this or that throne -- and others will have no ties at all to any throne, and only a very very distant ancestry to a Kingly dynasty that lost all claims over 300 years ago. So everyone is not equal here.... If Sweet Robin is to have a shot at a crown, his best bet is as Robb's cousin, and only if Robb's legacy can be salvaged....

...most elective monarchies became hereditary, or were only 'elective' in theory and the new Kings/Emperors often came from the same dynasty, like the Habsburgs for ex. in case of the Holy Roman Empire. ..this happened in the history of the Iron Islands as well, when Urron Greyiron made the seastone chair hereditary....and in spite of it being a 'free' open to all election, who was elected at the last King's moot? and who wasn't in spite of having been better known and more involved in Iron Island politics? and why, if it was an 'open' to all election were Asha and Euron the favorite candidates? there's always a big gap between theory and practice, imo.

I do think that point 2 and 3 will be particularly important because the Iron Born, the Free-folk, and the Northmen look for strength and leadership ability in a king, and the smallfolk will want someone who represents heroic/knightly ideals or has shown to care for their well being. These will all have an influence on the GC, even if only a limited number of lords are allowed to participate. I don't think the GC could get away with choosing a candidate that proves unsatisfactory to the great majority of people, which is why an ideal candidate would satisfy both the 'conservative' factions (who put precedence on blood and ancestry over everything else) and the more 'popular' factions (who put strength and leadership above the rest.)

[Han Snow]

I'm curious what ya'll think of this.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north.He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

1. It seems GRRM intended from the start for Jon to always remain in the North.

2. It seems that the secret of Jon's parentage is a barrier for him and Arya to married/do the dirty, that the reveal would remove this barrier, and nothing more.

Nothing more, what a limited perspective. Nothing more says you and not George.

I still shudder at the notion of Jon and Arya romantically. I mean these quotes Mithras posted in the last thread:

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The next mention of "beautiful" in the text after this quote is this:

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

Arya is like Lyanna reincarnated and Jon was suppose to be with her? George loves his 50 shades of incest, that is for sure.

[Mithras]

There is a third one.

3. Dany, Jon, Tyrion and all the characters you've come to know and love or know and hate will join forces to try and stop the Others from taking over the world and killing humankind after Westeros realizes that they've been focusing on the wrong damn thing. Several of these characters fight smaller battles against wights, try to reclaim parts of the land that has fallen to #TeamOther ect. A few select characters will engage the Others and their leaders, like the NK, on a more mythic scale and ultimately bring Winter to a close, for which 7 books should be perfectly fine.

Do you honestly think George will write such a thing?

[BearQueen87]

Do you honestly think George will write such a thing?

Do you honestly think George will have one character only saving the world while others ignore the ice zombies and freezing winter and the death of everything around them?

Do I think all the characters will band together like a little intrepid team complete with Kumbaya's and hand holding? No. I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song." But Tyrion, Jon, and Dany working together as dragon riders, leaders, ect...yes. I don't see why not. Tyrion will most assuredly meet Dany in WOW. He has already met Jon. The idea that Jon will say "no I got this, go deal with something else" or that Dany will say "I got more important things to do..." and that Tyrion won't council working together however Dany and Jon might feel about each other is simply ludercrious. I think it's far more likely that fAegon and Arianne met a very swift dragon-filled end and just as Dany is about to seize the throne that she has wanted for so long the following happens 1) Cersei burns it to the ground and 2) she has to go north cause Ice Zombies.

FWIW, the show hinted at both of those in their own HotU vision. Just as she's about to reach the throne room (the destroyed throne) she hears a distressed crying and goes north. Now you can read that she dies there, that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but it doesn't change the fact that she went north in that vision, to the wall...hence, fighting Ice Zombies.

[Greymoon]

Do you honestly think George will write such a thing?

gods, I hope not. Dany vs Jon makes for a much more interesting story...Dany vs Aegon with Jon tipping the scale in favor of the one or other, would be interesting too.

...I think Tyrion allying with Jon is quite a possibility, and Jon allying with Aegon as well... The Golden Company's elephants are missing after their ships got separated by a storm near Lys. The slavers in Braavos that Arya overheard came from Lys, and after riding through a storm, landed at Hardhome. The Golden Company's missing elephants and crew, might thus very well have landed north as well, instead of near Cape wrath and could be instrumental in the solving of the Hardhome situation...thus starts Aegon's unwitting alliance with his dearest future rival. ;)

[BearQueen87]

gods, I hope not. Dany vs Jon makes for a much more interesting story...Dany vs Aegon with Jon tipping the scale in favor of the one or other, would be interesting too.

...I think Tyrion allying with Jon is quite a possibility, and Jon allying with Aegon as well... The Golden Company's elephants are missing after their ships got separated by a storm near Lys. The slavers in Braavos that Arya overheard came from Lys, and after riding through a storm, landed at Hardhome. The Golden Company's missing elephants and crew, might thus very well have landed north as well, instead of near Cape wrath and could be instrumental in the solving of the Hardhome situation...thus starts Aegon's unwitting alliance with his dearest future rival. ;)

Jon will ally with whomever agrees to bring their troops north. He doesn't have time for these political machinations. Jon and Dany can be "vs" each other all they want after the Ice Zombies are defeated.

[Mithras]

Do you honestly think George will have one character only saving the world while others ignore the ice zombies and freezing winter and the death of everything around them?

Do I think all the characters will band together like a little intrepid team complete with Kumbaya's and hand holding? No. I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song." But Tyrion, Jon, and Dany working together as dragon riders, leaders, ect...yes. I don't see why not. Tyrion will most assuredly meet Dany in WOW. He has already met Jon. The idea that Jon will say "no I got this, go deal with something else" or that Dany will say "I got more important things to do..." and that Tyrion won't council working together however Dany and Jon might feel about each other is simply ludercrious. I think it's far more likely that fAegon and Arianne met a very swift dragon-filled end and just as Dany is about to seize the throne that she has wanted for so long the following happens 1) Cersei burns it to the ground and 2) she has to go north cause Ice Zombies.

FWIW, the show hinted at both of those in their own HotU vision. Just as she's about to reach the throne room (the destroyed throne) she hears a distressed crying and goes north. Now you can read that she dies there, that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but it doesn't change the fact that she went north in that vision, to the wall...hence, fighting Ice Zombies.

That is not a given :)

To the bolded part: Yes, but the Iron Born are in theory familiar with elections. The whole of westeros is not, they have never had to choose a king, and the scale (Iron Islands/the whole realm) is quite a bit different.

The right ancestry will matter, because at one point or another some claimants will have ties to a house that sat on this or that throne -- and others will have no ties at all to any throne, and only a very very distant ancestry to a Kingly dynasty that lost all claims over 300 years ago. So everyone is not equal here.... If Sweet Robin is to have a shot at a crown, his best bet is as Robb's cousin, and only if Robb's legacy can be salvaged....

...most elective monarchies became hereditary, or were only 'elective' in theory and the new Kings/Emperors often came from the same dynasty, like the Habsburgs for ex. in case of the Holy Roman Empire. ..this happened in the history of the Iron Islands as well, when Urron Greyiron made the seastone chair hereditary....and in spite of it being a 'free' open to all election, who was elected at the last King's moot? and who wasn't in spite of having been better known and more involved in Iron Island politics? and why, if it was an 'open' to all election were Asha and Euron the favorite candidates? there's always a big gap between theory and practice, imo.

I do think that point 2 and 3 will be particularly important because the Iron Born, the Free-folk, and the Northmen look for strength and leadership ability in a king, and the smallfolk will want someone who represents heroic/knightly ideals or has shown to care for their well being. These will all have an influence on the GC, even if only a limited number of lords are allowed to participate. I don't think the GC could get away with choosing a candidate that proves unsatisfactory to the great majority of people, which is why an ideal candidate would satisfy both the 'conservative' factions (who put precedence on blood and ancestry over everything else) and the more 'popular' factions (who put strength and leadership above the rest.)

As I said before, Jon is the one who ticks all the boxes but just like in the election of the LC, there will be several claimants who tick only a few boxes and there will be no possible resolution between them. So, Jon will again emerge as the compromise candidate.

[MtnLion]

Would a Jon/Arya match even if "only" cousins still be incest. Would whole westeros accept that?? Isnt it condemned in the eyes of men and gods and all that.

Perhaps we should check in on Joanna and Tywin? Maybe Lyarra and Rickard? It doesn't seem to be a problem for cousins to marry.

[Mithras]

Do you honestly think George will have one character only saving the world while others ignore the ice zombies and freezing winter and the death of everything around them?

Do I think all the characters will band together like a little intrepid team complete with Kumbaya's and hand holding? No. I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song." But Tyrion, Jon, and Dany working together as dragon riders, leaders, ect...yes. I don't see why not. Tyrion will most assuredly meet Dany in WOW. He has already met Jon. The idea that Jon will say "no I got this, go deal with something else" or that Dany will say "I got more important things to do..." and that Tyrion won't council working together however Dany and Jon might feel about each other is simply ludercrious. I think it's far more likely that fAegon and Arianne met a very swift dragon-filled end and just as Dany is about to seize the throne that she has wanted for so long the following happens 1) Cersei burns it to the ground and 2) she has to go north cause Ice Zombies.

FWIW, the show hinted at both of those in their own HotU vision. Just as she's about to reach the throne room (the destroyed throne) she hears a distressed crying and goes north. Now you can read that she dies there, that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but it doesn't change the fact that she went north in that vision, to the wall...hence, fighting Ice Zombies.

Even you admit that Dany will go North only after the KL is burned which means she will be ignoring the Others until at least the KL is burned. It is obvious that IT is the number one priority of Dany. So the question is, how fast Cersei will burn the KL? That is where our opinions diverge.

[BearQueen87]

That is not a given :)

Oh sweet seven. Are we speaking in "givens" cause you make it sounds as though Dany ignoring the Ice Zombies and the world going to hell is also a given.

Why the heck else would she go north to the wall if not to fight some Zombies/wights/figure out why it's suddenly very cold/because she was asked cause...dragons. They may not win the war but if I'm fighting some wights I want some flying fire breathing lizards on my team, as would Jon. Also, how do you imagine that Jon gets his dragon is not from Dany coming to the Wall? What...she lands and Jon's (insert your choice) dragon turns to Dany and says, "oh shit. Peace mom. I hear the sound of my people!" and flies north? This is obviously followed by a dragon landing at the Wall and Jon just going, "oh great. Obviously this was meant for me. Everybody stand back. I got this."

Even you admit that Dany will go North only after the KL is burned which means she will be ignoring the Others until at least the KL is burned. It is obvious that IT is the number one priority of Dany. So the question is, how fast Cersei will burn the KL? That is where our opinions diverge.

Wildfire seems to move quite quickly and will destroy the city that is always seconds away from disaster quickly. Aerys seem to think that he could burn KL and have it be a city of ashes and bone by the time Robert and Ned showed up. If the caches of WF are still placed around KL, that thing is toast within a very short amount of time.

As for the first part of that, yes I think Dany will be focused on other (small o) things when she lands in Westeros, just like every other lord (save Stannis) and person in Westeros. But that doesn't mean she won't go north and fight the Others once she realizes she has to.

Also... *that* is where our opinions diverge? Just over how fast KL will burn? ;)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Do you honestly think George will have one character only saving the world while others ignore the ice zombies and freezing winter and the death of everything around them?

Do I think all the characters will band together like a little intrepid team complete with Kumbaya's and hand holding? No. I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song." But Tyrion, Jon, and Dany working together as dragon riders, leaders, ect...yes. I don't see why not. Tyrion will most assuredly meet Dany in WOW. He has already met Jon. The idea that Jon will say "no I got this, go deal with something else" or that Dany will say "I got more important things to do..." and that Tyrion won't council working together however Dany and Jon might feel about each other is simply ludercrious. I think it's far more likely that fAegon and Arianne met a very swift dragon-filled end and just as Dany is about to seize the throne that she has wanted for so long the following happens 1) Cersei burns it to the ground and 2) she has to go north cause Ice Zombies.

FWIW, the show hinted at both of those in their own HotU vision. Just as she's about to reach the throne room (the destroyed throne) she hears a distressed crying and goes north. Now you can read that she dies there, that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but it doesn't change the fact that she went north in that vision, to the wall...hence, fighting Ice Zombies.

While your reference to Ice Zombies is a little flippant (wight might be so characterized--but the Others are anything but zombies), your analysis is spot on. The story lines will merge--and we also have been told by GRRM that the game or thrones is a side show and not what is really important. How can these clues mean anything other than what you are suggesting.

Even you admit that Dany will go North only after the KL is burned which means she will be ignoring the Others until at least the KL is burned. It is obvious that IT is the number one priority of Dany. So the question is, how fast Cersei will burn the KL? That is where our opinions diverge.

I don't understand your point. If you agree that Cersei eventually will burn KL to the ground and Dany will eventually head north and help Jon (and Tyrion) win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, how is there any disagreement at all? Neither you nor BQ87 has suggested a specific time line for such events. You suggested that Dany would never be part of the end game battle against the Others, and BQ87 indicated that she would (see your post #26). If you are now agreeing that BQ87 was correct in her description of what will eventually happen--but you merely think she failed to emphasize an interim step of Dany focusing on the IT--then I am not sure why you think there is a disagreement at all. You seem to be conceding the only real point BQ87 was making.

[Greymoon]

Do you honestly think George will have one character only saving the world while others ignore the ice zombies and freezing winter and the death of everything around them?

Do I think all the characters will band together like a little intrepid team complete with Kumbaya's and hand holding? No. I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song." But Tyrion, Jon, and Dany working together as dragon riders, leaders, ect...yes. I don't see why not. Tyrion will most assuredly meet Dany in WOW. He has already met Jon. The idea that Jon will say "no I got this, go deal with something else" or that Dany will say "I got more important things to do..." and that Tyrion won't council working together however Dany and Jon might feel about each other is simply ludercrious. I think it's far more likely that fAegon and Arianne met a very swift dragon-filled end and just as Dany is about to seize the throne that she has wanted for so long the following happens 1) Cersei burns it to the ground and 2) she has to go north cause Ice Zombies.

FWIW, the show hinted at both of those in their own HotU vision. Just as she's about to reach the throne room (the destroyed throne) she hears a distressed crying and goes north. Now you can read that she dies there, that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but it doesn't change the fact that she went north in that vision, to the wall...hence, fighting Ice Zombies.

It seem more likely imo, that Jon and Bran be on the same side...and Tyrion is susceptible of betraying Dany for Jon....

...Dany will probably arrive late in the game, and likely be busy in the south. It's possible, the realm being as big as it is, that by the time the rumors are given serious attention in the south, the north will mostly have dealt with the threat themselves...people do not believe in Others and White Walkers; Jon will be condemned on the grounds of having let wildlings into the realm, of having betrayed the watch's neutrality, of having allied with Stannis, being the son of the usurpers dog, etc.....who would believe him, who hadn't witnessed the threat firsthand?

The potential for an fAegon/Jon alliance is there though, Sansa is of a marriageable age and would be a great match for Aegon, Jon might learn of his parentage sometime soon, and decide to support his 'brother'...and if the other half of the Golden Company lands north beyond the wall, they would have firsthand knowledge of the situation in the north which would be necessary to persuade Aegon.)

[BearQueen87]

It seem more likely imo, that Jon and Bran be on the same side...and Tyrion is susceptible of betraying Dany for Jon....

...Dany will probably arrive late in the game, and likely be busy in the south. It's possible, the realm being as big as it is, that by the time the rumors are given serious attention in the south, the north will mostly have dealt with the threat themselves...people do not believe in Others and White Walkers; Jon will be condemned on the grounds of having let wildlings into the realm, of having betrayed the watch's neutrality, of having allied with Stannis, being the son of the usurpers dog, etc.....who would believe him, who hadn't witnessed the threat firsthand?

You think the entire Other problem will be dealt with that swiftly? It's already becoming Wintery in KL. It's only going to get worse if the Wall falls. The Other problem is not going to solved in a few chapters or a few days.

The potential for an fAegon/Jon alliance is there though, Sansa is of a marriageable age and would be a great match for Aegon, Jon might learn of his parentage sometime soon, and decide to support his 'brother'...and if the other half of the Golden Company lands north beyond the wall, they would have firsthand knowledge of the situation in the north which would be necessary to persuade Aegon.)

I never understand where people get the fAegon/Sansa thing. It's far more likely that fAegon marries Arianne. Sansa as her own things to worry about outside of fAegon. And Jon isn't going to start playing the game of thrones and giving support to one king or queen over the other. He has more important things with which to be concerned, just like he has shown time and time again. The one time he decides to put something non-Other first, he got stabbed. Lesson: learned.

[Mithras]

Oh sweet seven. Are we speaking in "givens" cause you make it sounds as though Dany ignoring the Ice Zombies and the world going to hell is also a given.

Why the heck else would she go north to the wall if not to fight some Zombies/wights/figure out why it's suddenly very cold/because she was asked cause...dragons. They may not win the war but if I'm fighting some wights I want some flying fire breathing lizards on my team, as would Jon. Also, how do you imagine that Jon gets his dragon is not from Dany coming to the Wall? What...she lands and Jon's (insert your choice) dragon turns to Dany and says, "oh shit. Peace mom. I hear the sound of my people!" and flies north? This is obviously followed by a dragon landing at the Wall and Jon just going, "oh great. Obviously this was meant for me. Everybody stand back. I got this."

Wildfire seems to move quite quickly and will destroy the city that is always seconds away from disaster quickly. Aerys seem to think that he could burn KL and have it be a city of ashes and bone by the time Robert and Ned showed up. If the caches of WF are still placed around KL, that thing is toast within a very short amount of time.

As for the first part of that, yes I think Dany will be focused on other (small o) things when she lands in Westeros, just like every other lord (save Stannis) and person in Westeros. But that doesn't mean she won't go north and fight the Others once she realizes she has to.

Also... *that* is where our opinions diverge? Just over how fast KL will burn? ;)

Once she realizes she has to.

When will she realize?

After the KL is burned just before she takes the city.

:hat:

[Mithras]

While your reference to Ice Zombies is a little flippant (wight might be so characterized--but the Others are anything but zombies), your analysis is spot on. The story lines will merge--and we also have been told by GRRM that the game or thrones is a side show and not what is really important. How can these clues mean anything other than what you are suggesting.

I don't understand your point. If you agree that Cersei eventually will burn KL to the ground and Dany will eventually head north and help Jon (and Tyrion) win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, how is there any disagreement at all? Neither you nor BQ87 has suggested a specific time line for such events. You suggested that Dany would never be part of the end game battle against the Others, and BQ87 indicated that she would (see your post #26). If you are now agreeing that BQ87 was correct in her description of what will eventually happen--but you merely think she failed to emphasize an interim step of Dany focusing on the IT--then I am not sure why you think there is a disagreement at all. You seem to be conceding the only real point BQ87 was making.

I definitely do not believe the bolded. Dany will not head North up to help anyone. She will come to punish the defiant Northmen but will get her ass kicked.

[BearQueen87]

Once she realizes she has to.

When will she realize?

After the KL is burned just before she takes the city.

:hat:

...and? I feel like you're trying to make a point here but I don't know what it is.

I definitely do not believe the bolded. Dany will not head North up to help anyone. She will come to punish the defiant Northmen but will get her ass kicked.

What? Isn't this totally a contradiction of what you just wrote to me?

[Mithras]

Wildfire seems to move quite quickly and will destroy the city that is always seconds away from disaster quickly. Aerys seem to think that he could burn KL and have it be a city of ashes and bone by the time Robert and Ned showed up. If the caches of WF are still placed around KL, that thing is toast within a very short amount of time.

As for the first part of that, yes I think Dany will be focused on other (small o) things when she lands in Westeros, just like every other lord (save Stannis) and person in Westeros. But that doesn't mean she won't go north and fight the Others once she realizes she has to.

Also... *that* is where our opinions diverge? Just over how fast KL will burn? ;)

I was trying to say when the KL will be burned. It seems that according to you, Cersei has to burn the KL mid to end of TWoW. I believe Cersei will do it mid to end of ADoS.