Complete rundown of army sizes and losses throughout the books (long)

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Is still think the majority of his army on the Blackwater was made up of Stormland soldiers rather than Reachmen. Obviously there would have been some who survived and returned to their homes.

I just dont see how the Golden Company could have taken Storms End, Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone so quickly if the Stormlords unless they took significant casualties with Stannis.

To be fair Westerosi castles fall like dominoes regardless of who they belong to.

Giving the Stormlands over 8,000 cavalry in the field is simply giving them way too many soldiers in total IMO. Regardless of who took what casualties many of the Stormlanders who joined Renly may well still be with Randyll or Jaime or in some other host.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Is still think the majority of his army on the Blackwater was made up of Stormland soldiers rather than Reachmen. Obviously there would have been some who survived and returned to their homes.

I just dont see how the Golden Company could have taken Storms End, Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone so quickly if the Stormlords unless they took significant casualties with Stannis.

That's not so strange, they were completely surprised after all. Those castles probably didn't have more than small peacetime garrisons, and unprepared ones at that.

Like Winterfell when Theon attacks it; just Alebelly and a few others as guards. In that case the situation was worsened by much of the normal garrison being away on campaign, but on the other hand Winterfell is a vastly larger castle than those you list. Excepting Storm's End of course, but it seems pretty clear that Aegon is going to capture that with some sort of trick rather than brute strength.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

That's not so strange, they were completely surprised after all. Those castles probably didn't have more than small peacetime garrisons, and unprepared ones at that.

Like Winterfell when Theon attacks it; just Alebelly and a few others as guards. In that case the situation was worsened by much of the normal garrison being away on campaign, but on the other hand Winterfell is a vastly larger castle than those you list. Excepting Storm's End of course, but it seems pretty clear that Aegon is going to capture that with some sort of trick rather than brute strength.

Apparently the taking of Storm's End was bloody

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Apparently the taking of Storm's End was bloody

Yeah, but still. If they hadn't used some sort of trick they shouldn't have been able to capture it at all. Not that fast at least. Also we actually know the size of the garrison there anyway, don't we?

[Nihlus]

Is still think the majority of his army on the Blackwater was made up of Stormland soldiers rather than Reachmen. Obviously there would have been some who survived and returned to their homes.

I just dont see how the Golden Company could have taken Storms End, Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone so quickly if the Stormlords unless they took significant casualties with Stannis.

That's essentially impossible. Stannis had 16,000 cavalry, 4/5 of Renly's cavalry. The Stormlands should, if anything, have a low horse to foot ratio. But assuming that they have a good one (1/4 are cavalry) and that 20,000 Stormlanders were with Renly (seems reasonable, as the total strength of the region is 30-35k, and many didn't march with Renly), that still only means that 5,000 of the soldiers Stannis recruited were Stormlanders, as opposed to the 11,000 Reachmen. Even if you include Stannis's own Dragonstone men, and his mercenaries, the majority of his Blackwater host was composed of men from the Reach.

Renly was well-liked but does this necessarily mean that the Stormlords all backed him full force? I'm not so sure. We tend to believe that because the Stormlords were rather blunt that they would not back Stannis. But we have to consider that Joffrey was a Baratheon, too, Robert's legal son and recognized heir. Renly was the liege lord of the Stormlords but Robert had been their king. Many of them seem to have tried to play the 'we'll cautiously back both sides'. Stannis was not supported at first since he was essentially the fifth wheel being the guy with essentially no power base whereas Renly was the Lord of Storm's End and enjoyed the support of Highgarden (and the Reach happened to be rather close-by the Stormlands) and Joffrey the support of the Lannister.

It's stated that many houses remained neutral.

The problem with that quote is that he gives both 50,000 and 70,000, so his estimations are so inaccurate that there is almost no conclusion we can draw from it other than that Mace didn't have Renly's entire army with him, which we could have guessed anyway.

Using 60,000 as the average is reasonable. He gives us a range, and indirectly states that, even disregarding the ones that defected to Stannis, a lot of the men at the Bitterbridge host abandoned the cause. Since the Stormlands and Reach forces were split, and the Stormlords really had no reason to follow Mace, I assume that the Stormlands infantry just went home, as well as some of the Reach infantry, upon learning that their lords joined Stannis. Which would then give Mace 50,000 at Blackwater, out of the original 90,000.

Anyway... I think your estimates on Tywin's host are far too generous. He was in hostile territory for nearly two years, fought two major battles (one of which was a loss), skirmished a bunch, and suffered from desertion... yet he still somehow managed to lose a smaller proportion of his army than Robb Stark, who spent most of the war in friendly territory and on the winning side, and only got involved in three crushing victories? Even ignoring desertion, disease, starvation, the death march to Blackwater, and all of the other factors that would whittle down Tywin's army in enemy territory, how many men did he lose in just those two battles plus the skirmishing?

-Tywin takes several castles. Well, Clegane does. Considering that only a few of Clegane's 300 raiders are left by AFFC, it's reasonable to assume he took ~100-200 mixed casualties just raiding the Riverlands.

-Tywin's men raid several villages. One notable raid, from Arya's POV, involves a small battle, and many Lannister deaths.

-The Brotherhood Without Banners launches several strikes. One notable incident is the annihilation of Burton Crakehall's column, which is about 50 losses on its own.

-Roose retakes Harrenhal, Darry, and probably some other castles. At Harrenhal, 200 Lannister troops are killed or defect. The Darry garrison is unknown; I think 50-100 is reasonable.

-Tywin forces his troops on a death march after Green Fork, and it's noted that he leaves several hundred bodies behind.

-Blackfish's scouts kill several of Tywin's; two dozen are reported killed in the chapter where Robb camps outside the Twins. In that same chapter, we see another dozen dead Lannister troops hung up on trees, with Cat noting that Walder would kill any Lannisters in his lands, but avoid getting involved in the war proper. There's implied to be even more dead scouts .Another 50 men from these little instances.

-The Battle of Green Fork is fought. I've always assumed that ~1,000 Lannister casualties is more than reasonable for this battle. Though, I based that on the figure of 500+ dead in the vanguard, and I still have yet to see that quote.

-The Battle of the Fords is fought. Gregor's part of the army is "smashed", Marbrand's vanguard is repulsed three times, and the Lannister dead disrupt the flow of the river. At least 2,000 dead here, possibly more.

I honestly think that my 15,000-16,000 estimate is kinda generous towards Tywin. Since I'm assuming that he, in much worse conditions than Robb, ONLY lost about as many men as Robb did, proportionally.

[Ramsay Gimp]

-The Battle of the Fords is fought. Gregor's part of the army is "smashed", Marbrand's vanguard is repulsed three times, and the Lannister dead disrupt the flow of the river. At least 2,000 dead here, possibly more.\

Based on what? The Battle of the Fords, like most of GRRM's battles, uses language much too vague to come up with accurate casualty figures. If the vanguard (which is only a small part of the army) is "repulsed," that suggests a good portion of it survived. Edmure's victory was impressive not because of the number of Lannister dead but because he prevented them from crossing

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Based on what? The Battle of the Fords, like most of GRRM's battles, uses language much too vague to come up with accurate casualty figures. If the vanguard (which is only a small part of the army) is "repulsed," that suggests a good portion of it survived. Edmure's victory was impressive not because of the number of Lannister dead but because he prevented them from crossing

The casualties were undoubtably heavy, maybe not 2,000+ as Nilhus is suggesting but every description of the battle states that casualties were "grievous", the fact that Lefford was killed and Crakehall captured gives an idea of the number of dead.

We don't really have many figures but the van generally seems to be about 1/4 to 1/3 of an army. Though there is no real indication that just the vanguard took part there was a large number of crossings attempted, most of Tywin's army took part to some extent.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I don't really see your point here, Loras' murder of Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy was illegal, yet no one cared because he fought for the winning side.

A lord can't control another lords men like that. Not in a feudal society.

Is still think the majority of his army on the Blackwater was made up of Stormland soldiers rather than Reachmen. Obviously there would have been some who survived and returned to their homes.

I just dont see how the Golden Company could have taken Storms End, Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone so quickly if the Stormlords unless they took significant casualties with Stannis.

Because castles in Westeros are extremely weak, some of the stormlords are still in KL, and the rest of the soldiers aren't mobilised? Although the Woiaf said that stormlands castles are some of the strongest in the realm. Go figure. It isn't like the stormlords were expecting it and had an entire army kicking around Storms End (although Mathis Rowan did).

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Siege warfare is the weakest and most unbelievable part of GRRM's story imo.

[Nihlus]

Based on what? The Battle of the Fords, like most of GRRM's battles, uses language much too vague to come up with accurate casualty figures. If the vanguard (which is only a small part of the army) is "repulsed," that suggests a good portion of it survived. Edmure's victory was impressive not because of the number of Lannister dead but because he prevented them from crossing

More than the vanguard took part in the battle. The casualties are described as grievous, and Lord Lefford was killed. Gregor's part of the army was also completely smashed in addition to Marbrand's force being repulsed three times. By all accounts, it was a disaster for Tywin (especially considering he outnumbered his enemy by more than 50%). Going by the description of Tywin's army at the Green Fork, that means both the vanguard and the right took heavy casualties. 2,000 losses is reasonable, but I think it should be higher, honestly.

Siege warfare is the weakest and most unbelievable part of GRRM's story imo.

Yep. Remember how easy it was to capture Winterfell?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Siege warfare is the weakest and most unbelievable part of GRRM's story imo.

It makes it even more unbelievable that houses like Blackwood and Bracken and Stark could have survived for thousands of years.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It makes it even more unbelievable that houses like Blackwood and Bracken and Stark could have survived for thousands of years.

I really think it must be a custom that if a house was going extinct that the successors would take the last name of the previous house, for prestige and all. Otherwise no way.

The English royalty changed names like 10 times.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I really think it must be a custom that if a house was going extinct that the successors would take the last name of the previous house, for prestige and all. Otherwise no way.

The English royalty changed names like 10 times.

In Westeros female relatives take the main branch line. The current Queen, Elizabeth II, is related to William the Conqueror as he is her 22nd Great-Grandfather.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Is still think the majority of his army on the Blackwater was made up of Stormland soldiers rather than Reachmen. Obviously there would have been some who survived and returned to their homes.

I just dont see how the Golden Company could have taken Storms End, Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone so quickly if the Stormlords unless they took significant casualties with Stannis.

Castles fall way too easily in Westeros. Even if majority of Stormlands army was dead, those castles still shouldn't fall so easily. It's just a flaw, similar to how armored Westerosi horses don't seem to have their necks protected (arguably the most important part for a heavy horse who's charging into enemy lines), or how Jamie chops off armored people's arms in battle with his sword.

As to Stormlands' armies, I imagine some of them are still in Riverlands, but most of them have simply dispersed. These aren't standing armies, only a small portion of them sit in castles at all times. Most of them have their small parcel of land with some common folk, and they look after it. At least, that's how I imagine it.

Gathering various knights in feudal Europe was a lengthy process, and then they used to want to go home after a short while. Then it's hard to gather them again. In feudal England, most knights were under obligation to go war just for 40 days a year, after that they considered their feudal obligation fulfilled.

[Nihlus]

Sorry to rez this, but I would like to discuss the casualties taken by both sides at the battle of the Green Fork.

I outlined what I thought of the Northern losses here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/127344-did-the-north-ever-stand-a-chance/page-7

5,000 killed or deserted.

Now, about the Westerlands losses. We know that the vanguard made the first strike and suffered heavy casualties. Then the right under Ser Marbrand and the center under Kevan both fought with the Northern host before it was finally broken. Finally, the reserve under Tywin attacked the scattered remnants after the host already routed. Some things to bring up here:

1. I keep hearing it said that 500 men in the vanguard died, out of the total 1,000. Where is this stated? Is it just extrapolation from the mountain clansmen losses, which were stated to be 50%+ by Tyrion? If so, it should be noted that the clansmen had superior equipment to the other elements of the vanguard, bar the sellswords. So their casualty ratio was probably lower.

2. Is it ever noted how many were wounded or killed in the other parts of the army?

3. After the Green Fork, Tywin marches back to Riverrun. Along the way, many of his wounded die, and there are desertions.

His father had set a grueling pace, and it had taken its toll. Men wounded in the battle kept up as best they could or were abandoned to fend for themselves. Every morning they left a few more by the roadside, men who went to sleep never to wake. Every afternoon a few more collapsed along the way. And every evening a few more deserted, stealing off into the dusk.

"A few" doesn't really tell us anything specific in this context, but it does let us know that the army was suffering constant losses at all times of day, every day. Considering the historical inspirations, this forced march should shoot the casualties Tywin took in the battle waaaaay up (though, arguably, only the wounded who die should count as casualties of the actual battle; not the deserters or those who collapse of exhaustion). It wasn't uncommon to lose a quarter or a third of your army on this type of march. It kinda depends on the length. How long and far did he march?

[Connartist92]

This is the kind of post I need to keep everything straight while rereading. You fucking rule OP

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

This is the kind of post I need to keep everything straight while rereading. You fucking rule OP

Thanks.