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Night Watch vows. Any sense?


TerrorVoid

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Right now I am thinking of it: People, who are supposed to be most dutiful and trusted people in whole realm are giving really really strange vows.


They forget their families, so they will have no motive to protect the Realm.


They shall win no crowns or glory, neither have children so they have pretty much no motive to live.


They live in celibate, with bad food and everything in constant cold, thus they live pretty much worst possible lives in entire Realm.


And their servitude is permanent, without any sign of recreation.


And what holds them there? Only a threat of death if they are caught deserting.



How does this organisation makes sense?



In any real organisation you always motivate people to do the harsh job.


IRL people who work in polar regions, have almost twice as much money for they work.


In Codex Alera, there are entire departments of women, working for Legions, so there would not be any thought about celibate, but quite opposite - legionaries would be able to create families even during the war.


Every war in a history of humanity was fought to protect the ones you love.


Not to mention, that even horses are allowed to rest in ASOIAF, unlike the watchmen.



What psycho has created this sort of organisation, where you are held only by sense of duty, and have every possible motivation in life to not join in or to run away?


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The night's watch and the kingsguard oath is virtally the same. So why does any kingsgyard forsake their vows and run away? Because it's an honor to serve there. And the same doesn't happen in the Night's watch because people in the seven kingdoms have forgotten the importance of this organization. A long time ago it was a great honor to serve in the Night's watch (in the North still is). So there's nothing wrong with the vows or.the organization but with the people that serves there( people who are force to do it because they are thieves or rapers) if more people remember the importance of th Night's watch it will be full with great warriors and commanders.

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Because defending the realm, and living to protect it, is meant to be the motivation itself. There should be nothing else. The reason they must forsake lands, titles, and families is because all of those are competing interests which, when push came to shove, some might chose over their duty to defend mankind (which is the ultimate purpose of the Watch). Maester Aemon said it himself: if they were allowed to keep families and friends close, and then circumstances forced them to chose between those people and their duty, how many people would remain true? Perhaps many, perhaps few, but the temptation - and the risk - would be too great.



The Night's Watch is meant to be selfless sacrifice for the needs of others. It makes perfect sense to ask their members to leave everything else behind, because then their only concern will be the realm and how to serve it.


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I get the idea, but it is wrong. It doesnt work and it is the reason why the NW is almost dead. If a job has nothing to offer at all besides honour, which is not very much vor most people ib their right minds, noone will want to do it, and surprise, thats what happened.

The watch should not be an order, but a state. The gift should be inhabitated by a people of its own, which does not belong to the seven kingdoms and has the purpose of mannung the wall, which they would do because just like everybody,they would want to protect themselves.

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The night's watch and the kingsguard oath is virtally the same.

Nope, they are not. Places, where they are serve, much like their positions are different.

Kingsguard are live the ones of the best lives in entire kingdom. A lot of good food, warm place, good people. If not the celibate, it would probably be the best position in the world you can have.

Because it's an honor to serve there.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

Unlike NW, Kingsguard is really honourable position.

Because defending the realm, and living to protect it, is meant to be the motivation itself.

Why would they want to protect the realm? They have no castles and lands, wives and children, people to protect. So how does it serves as motivation?

What Aemon said, serves more as a harsh joke on those stupid enough to serve there, rather then reasonable thought.

In real life Realm does everything to protect relatives of soldiers. For obvious reasons. Because if they would not be protected, 1) no one else would go in soldiers, 2) Soldiers would return and kick ass.

While in NW you are philosophising about your duty, and those, whom you protect are being killed.

Which leads us once again: either you stand at home and protect the ones you love, or you go to the NW and you protect the ones, who kills your loved ones.

I get the idea, but it is wrong. It doesnt work and it is the reason why the NW is almost dead. If a job has nothing to offer at all besides honour, which is not very much vor most people ib their right minds, noone will want to do it, and surprise, thats what happened.

The thing is, this job does not even offer honor, like KG does.

The watch should not be an order, but a state. The gift should be inhabitated by a people of its own, which does not belong to the seven kingdoms and has the purpose of mannung the wall, which they would do because just like everybody,they would want to protect themselves.

For what I think, it should decide, what is it.

Either it is elite order like KG. And works that way.

Or it is a punishment for a hard crimes, and work that way.

If I would say, that chopping heads of, like we do to the murderers, is a great honor, you think any lord would seriously consider to do this with their sons?

It is straight up stupid, that great honor equals death sentence.

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I always imagined that the punishments for desertion arose at the same time as the stigma towards the Watch. By this I mean that it used to be an order on par with the Kingsguard, where people chose to serve for life, but as people forgot the true meaning of it, they had to resort to the idea of using prisoners to guard the wall, and fear of death to manage the prisoners.


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The following is only my speculation, but here goes: when the Night's Watch was first convened all those thousands of years ago, it was basically a religious order under the auspices of the Old Gods, not unlike the Poor Fellows were (and are again) for the Faith of the Seven. Remember, the NW was founded before the Andal invasion, so probably everybody who joined back in the old days took an oath before a weirwood tree. I'd even go as far to say that the NW as an order and their oath is actually based on the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. If I'm correct, the motivation to give up one's family, title and lands and all the rest would have been seen as a kind of spiritual devotion not unlike monks and nuns in the real world.


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You're looking at it the wrong way:



1) The vows were written just after the Long Night after a decades long war of extermination against The Others. They wanted serious dedicated people to defend against such a serious threat.



2) They were written by a much less sophisticated people than us. They didn't even have a concept of state. There were no Kingdoms larger than how far a lord could travel in a day from his holdfast.



3) The vows likely have a magical component. The only evidence I have for this is the Black Gate but if there is one aspect of the wall effected by the vows why not more?


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The celibacy one for sure.



The Night's watch has to always have a "united front" against the wildlings and white walkers, and can't have the family of a Lord commander trying to claim a certain castle or such. Celibacy would eliminate any potential divided loyalties in the men, between either their commander, or their wife/child.



Also, Im not sure many women would consent to be married to a man who lived in a dark, sub-zero level fort in the wildnerness ( maybe a very tough or tolerant one.)


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Actually it just says you won't have a wife and father children, not that you won't have sex. The the part about "No children" could have meant "I cannot claim them as mine"



The North does have a bias against bastards but that could have developed after The Wall was raised.


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The North does have a bias against bastards but that could have developed after The Wall was raised.

Does it really? Cat seems the meanest in regards to bastards, and she is from the Riverlands. Ramsay is a bastard, but he gets to be his father's heir after Domeric "mysteriously dies of stomach sickness."

Benjen seems to love Jon. Can you really see Manderly or the Umbers being all that frazzled over somebody being a bastard?

True lady Hornwood was mean to Lord Hornwood's bastard, but apparently the Tallhart's like him and he is respected as a good and capable kid. She seemed disdainful of bastards, and really hurt Ramsay's feelings by calling him a bastard :frown5:

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Does it really? Cat seems the meanest in regards to bastards, and she is from the Riverlands. Ramsay is a bastard, but he gets to be his father's heir after Domeric "mysteriously dies of stomach sickness."

Benjen seems to love Jon. Can you really see Manderly or the Umbers being all that frazzled over somebody being a bastard?

True lady Hornwood was mean to Lord Hornwood's bastard, but apparently the Tallhart's like him and he is respected as a good and capable kid. She seemed disdainful of bastards, and really hurt Ramsay's feelings by calling him a bastard :frown5:

Yeah, because Jon talks about the shit he gets.

Also it is mentioned in AWOIAF... I think.

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NW vows do not stand up to logical scrutiny, i agree, but not having glory or children or titles is not exactly to have no reason to live.



their duties seem to occupy the same portion of their day as the duties of most comparable positions, depending on current circumstances, so other than pleasures of the flesh the same opportunities for leisure probably exist.



several references to gaming/gambling are made, but of course like the moles town treasure digs, how the coin for such is acquired remains unclear. i suppose going hunting/trapping is actively encouraged, as food is always a concern, but their diet still exceeds the lowest brown slurping peasants.



yes, it is cold, but if the watch is the path chosen (even under duress) then the cold is kind of a given.



the 'no titles/no children' seems plot motivated, and not applicable to the various sers/lords that retain their titles in name at least; are they any more than a name, without attendant lands and levies, anyway?



and having brothers breed would surely be a source of future members, following your father seems quite common in many walks of westerosi life.



many details and nuances certainly remain unexplained, so far as i am concerned................

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Yeah, the vows are really crap. No wonder the NW is dwindling. You could wonder how it lasted for some 8K years. The knights were putting honor way above what it is now. But the criminals have no choice anyway, and it doesn't help to improve the honor of serving the NW.



You could wonder why less knights join the NW now. Maybe the Targaryen relative peace, after the petty kings, forcing less knights to take the black. Except a few crazed people, no one would take the black willingly.


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I'd say:


- forgetting the family - it prevents them from leaving the NW and fight for their former families issues, if they have nobody else but the NW, this should make them pretty loyal to the NW.


- no children - no dynasties of the black brothers that would fight one against each other that would cause pretty much the same thing as in the 7K - Lannisters vs. Starks vs. Baratheons etc


- no glory, no crown - that is a bit wierd because they can win glory in the Night's Watch and even become the Lord Commander which is ~ equivalent to king / lord. I suppose that means that they won't try to get any glory outside of the NW.



Although the conditions of living are harsh, I can see some people joining the NW voluntarily. Although it is cold and permanently dangerous there, still it's probably better than being homeless with nothing to eat. They doesn't have to worry that they lose their living.


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Why would they want to protect the realm? They have no castles and lands, wives and children, people to protect. So how does it serves as motivation?

Because it is possible to feel motivated to protect things - and people - even if they're not your family or on your land. The realm is millions of souls, from the North to Dorne and everywhere beyond, and it contains everyone. The purpose of the Night's Watch is to keep them safe - to suffer so they don't have to. It is a harsh duty, and not just anybody can do it, but to think that protecting all of mankind is worthless would be as shortsighted as it is selfish.

Why catholic priests must vow for celibate? Can' t you love god and a wife and children in the same time? Just because.

"Just because" hardly covers it. The reasoning is the same in both: it is a higher calling that demands absolute loyalty. It is indeed possible for one to love his family and God, or the realm, but what happens when you are forced to choose between them? Can you serve as effectively when you have things that compete for your loyalty? Clearly the answer is no, considering how much Jon is tempted to abandon his duty for love throughout the series. It would distract from their selfless duty, and thus it had to cut off.

For what I think, it should decide, what is it.

Either it is elite order like KG. And works that way.

Or it is a punishment for a hard crimes, and work that way.

If I would say, that chopping heads of, like we do to the murderers, is a great honor, you think any lord would seriously consider to do this with their sons?

It is straight up stupid, that great honor equals death sentence.

It probably started as more of a rehabilitation-type sentence with criminals. "You committed a heinous crime, but now you have the chance to repent through a life of honor and total self-sacrifice for the good of others," and all that. It's just more recently that people started to see it as more of dumping ground, and the Watch has changed accordingly. They can hardly refuse the manpower, after all.

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They forget their families, so they will have no motive to protect the Realm.

They shall win no crowns or glory, neither have children so they have pretty much no motive to live.

They live in celibate, with bad food and everything in constant cold, thus they live pretty much worst possible lives in entire Realm.

- They "guard the realms of men", including any family they left behind.

- They actually can win glory within the organization. And anyone can rise high if they show promise.

- They are celibate, but may have sex (kind of like jedis :) ). Their food is bad, but they have something to eat (many wildlings are happy to take the black to be fed). And I'm sure there are worse lives in Westeros (don't be fooled by Tyrion's opinion of it, he's a privileged highborn with a taste for luxury).

Most importantly, they are taught to fight, they have adventures (of a sort) and their vows are cool.

This is a great scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb8du53_jsA

See also this history of the NW, which will explain a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M21jxDOJARM

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