MaesterSam Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Why is the site going down? Season 5 ain't even started yet :P Ugh I know, right?! I've had the hardest time getting on here the last few days, even to keep up with reading, let alone post. Seems better today, knock on wood. It could be. However, I'm not sure what would be given away, if the tale goes per standard RLJ expectations. Either Lyanna would be making out with Rhaegar as they rode away into the sunset, or she'd be kicking Dayne in the balls and screaming obscenities at Whent. God knows the canon, so far, has already suggested one or the other took place. So whatever Yandel didn't want to get into doesn't seem like it can be either one, since neither would spoil a thing. You seem to be implying Rhaegar was attracted to boys! But I find that very hard to believe; after all, Connington was a grown man. ETA: I see Joe Pine and I had a similar thought. Couldn't agree more. While it's entirely possible things went down as stated (or rather, implied) in the text, if that were the case there would be no need for all the secrecy- which he has so meticulously maintained for over 20 years. :agree: Actually, I have a little story here. I know a woman who's read all five books once. She never reads the forums or Reddit; she treats the books like all the other countless books she's read, no more or less important. She could barely remember this character I brought up named "Rhaegar." She thought it was possible he might be Dany's brother, but she wasn't sure. I wouldn't be the least surprised if she is typical of book-readers. I think they might be utterly swamped just trying to keep up with the 2000+ living characters, never mind all the dead ones, and as for ferreting out secret meanings of things like Ned's fever dream... forget it. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of material that folks have to absorb in one go, and really asking a lot to expect they'll reread and ponder the way we do. Agreed, again. I don't think we can assume that a typical reader comes anywhere near the level of obsession found on these forums. IMO, there has been more foreshadowing of Sansa dating the Hound at some point than of Jon being a secret Targ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Ah well, there's the point, although GRRM has promised that we will in due time learn who Jon's mother is, neither the synopsis, the books as written nor the show give any indication that it is significant. And with that goodnight in hopes that the site will be better behaved upon the morrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 No the point I was making is that vaults can be quite extensive and that they are not as JNR suggested individual chambers used for the securing of treasures. I see, sorry, I see things sideways more often than not. I guess I prefer a sneak attack on the novels as opposed to marching to the front door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 No probs. and I refer again to the second para of that post. But for now, goodnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 No the point I was making is that vaults can be quite extensive and that they are not as JNR suggested individual chambers used for the securing of treasures. It could be the case; I'm not sure how we can know at this point, though, without a POV witness. What we get in ASOS is this: There were a lot of dark doors in the Nightfort, and a lot of rats. Bran could hear them scurrying through the vaults and cellars, and the maze of pitch-black tunnels that connected them. Jojen wanted to go poking around down there, but Hodor said "Hodor" to that, and Bran said "No." There were worse things than rats down in the dark beneath the Nightfort. From which I conclude that "vault" is meant as something beyond "cellar" (or there'd be little point in the variant phrasing), and as I suggested earlier, and so did the worthy ADwF, there are tunnels that do connect the vaults and cellars to each other. It remains a peculiar thing to me that anyone would go to such trouble to chisel all that from rock, though, unless of course Maester Yandel's command of the subject matter is imperfect (imagine that), and there was no chiseling involved. Also, we can reasonably conclude they didn't explore these vaults or cellars or tunnels from the last two sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I see, sorry, I see things sideways more often than not. I guess I prefer a sneak attack on the novels as opposed to marching to the front door. I think we all do; it's what makes us Heretics, and you fit right in. It's better to consider many alternatives, knowing they might be wrong, than build an increasingly tall skyscraper atop an increasingly fragile foundation and label it "rock solid or "unwritten canon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think we all do; it's what makes us Heretics, and you fit right in. It's better to consider many alternatives, knowing they might be wrong, than build an increasingly tall skyscraper atop an increasingly fragile foundation and label it "rock solid or "unwritten canon." Cheers :) About those vaults, if you'll indulge me, if the Others don't ramble in the sunlight, and if the Night King's wife was an Other, they would need a sunless space to hold court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Makes me feel old, I read it as soon as it came out in paperback back in the mid 90's, and I'm embarrassed to say that it was mainly to read something in the same vein as the Wheel of Time series as I waited for Robert Jordan's next book to come out. I've yet to get around to reading Wheel of Time. Seems too magicky to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Interesting Post... It seems pretty clear to me that Bran's Cave, The Black Gate, & Winterfell are all connected somehow... More than likely by an underground river...Then why did Bran have to go from WF tother the Cave overland? A boat would've been much faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Cheers :) About those vaults, if you'll indulge me, if the Others don't ramble in the sunlight, and if the Night King's wife was an Other, they would need a sunless space to hold court.I'd agree on that.Also say that the under tree caverns that the CotF might have abandoned might be useful for them too and just what will they find in all those barrow sites in the North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It could be. However, I'm not sure what would be given away, if the tale goes per standard RLJ expectations. Either Lyanna would be making out with Rhaegar as they rode away into the sunset, or she'd be kicking Dayne in the balls and screaming obscenities at Whent. God knows the canon, so far, has already suggested one or the other took place. So whatever Yandel didn't want to get into doesn't seem like it can be either one, since neither would spoil a thing. You seem to be implying Rhaegar was attracted to boys! But I find that very hard to believe; after all, Connington was a grown man. ETA: I see Joe Pine and I had a similar thought.For me, it's the way that the friendships are put across in the books. Whether Rhaegar had a relationship or not, there's no way of knowing, I guess I'm just thinking it's possible. I'm sort of thinking Alexander the Great and his favourites.Jon Snow, if he is Rhaegar's kid then he might be named for Connington, I know it's likely Ned named him after Arryn, but possible I guess. I'd doubt his name was the 'promise me Ned' though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Then why did Bran have to go from WF tother the Cave overland? A boat would've been much faster. Great question. I think you already sort of answered a bit... who knows what's down there (and GRRM didn't want to reveal it just yet, lack of the tourism we got from their journey). Or, lack of a boat, no knowledge where the entrance is... no idea really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Sent you a PM. In terms of the Jon dreams, I think MaesterSam and probably a couple of other readers have worked out where I was potentially going with that well before I have completed writing, and have thought it through probably much better. another fine crackpot. also, in terms of the woman emerging from the pool. . . it has a very odd "land is one" vibe about it, imo. Mel has her shadowbabies, the Starks have their. . . ? must. . .sleep. . . Oh holy crap, a son to avenge her? Like the son Mel birthed for Stannis perhaps? Maybe she was a priestess, just like the old lady with the sickle! Speaking of the old lady, we don't really know she is old, do we? Just that she has white hair. Like BR for example, even as a young man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It also occurs to me that the entrance to the Cave of the 3 eyed raven is also magically warded.. to protect one of the entrances to these possible passages underground? Possible. Strange it's not the same magic however. The Night's Gate's warding magic is so out of whack with other magic in the book. Transmogrified doors that require a verbal statement... weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Great question. I think you already sort of answered a bit... who knows what's down there (and GRRM didn't want to reveal it just yet, lack of the tourism we got from their journey). Or, lack of a boat, no knowledge where the entrance is... no idea really.It's a good point on the boat, but I guess the NW hold both ends of the wall and for a boat, gold certainly would be needed and some co-operation to ferry Bran's group. The 'Sea Road' certainly would be dangerous in terms of conditions and possibly other ships with hostile intent too, but it was a risk taken by the Starks before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I've yet to get around to reading Wheel of Time. Seems too magicky to me. Wise decision. I'm one of those who enjoyed the first few, and then it went on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and ... And yes, too magicky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It also occurs to me that the entrance to the Cave of the 3 eyed raven is also magically warded.. to protect one of the entrances to these possible passages underground? Possible. Strange it's not the same magic however. The Night's Gate's warding magic is so out of whack with other magic in the book. Transmogrified doors that require a verbal statement... weird.Magic of different races? Children's magic and 'Men's' magic - if that's the case, it may explain the chain link studied by Marwyn and Luwin. I guess we have 'Red magic' from Melisandre and the red priest with Vic and 'Face Magic' as Jaquen and Arya have practiced as well as the Dragon taming stuff which may/may not be magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Interesting point on the Nightfort. Have now been informed the World book claims something like "none of it is the original structure except for underground vaults." Is this the case? What does it say is in the vaults? Do they connect? If the Nightfort originally had a substantial underground element, like the tunnels at Castle Black, it would help explain why the Black Gate was created underground. Ooooh I like it! And it makes a lot of sense. Later, many of the tunnels were closed off, but the Black Gate was kept accessible while hidden, so it could still be used. I wonder why they sealed the tunnels? Maybe, like in Yeen, those who went down there came back mad, or not at all. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Magic of different races? Children's magic and 'Men's' magic - if that's the case, it may explain the chain link studied by Marwyn and Luwin. I guess we have 'Red magic' from Melisandre and the red priest with Vic and 'Face Magic' as Jaquen and Arya have practiced as well as the Dragon taming stuff which may/may not be magic. Forgotten men's magic? I don't know. The biggest things we've witnessed are The Others and the wights, Mel's shadow babies and Dany surviving the pyre to hatch the dragons. Everything else is so subtle, then we get a talking door who speaks the Common Tongue and demands a spoken password, it's like the Fat Lady guarding the Gryffindor Common Room. Maybe just a bad decision on GRRM's part or does it mean something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ooooh I like it! And it makes a lot of sense. Later, many of the tunnels were closed off, but the Black Gate was kept accessible while hidden, so it could still be used. I wonder why they sealed the tunnels? Maybe, like in Yeen, those who went down there came back mad, or not at all. :devil: I'm gonna backtrack you a bit on the Black Gate. It's possible the passage remained unwarded while the Night's King used it to smuggle his Other wife under the Wall, and the Gate and the warding was only creating afterwards. If you missed it, I was saying that it's possible the Wall's magic only extends above ground, not far below, otherwise, the gate would not be needed. Which ties into Bran's mention of the Black River and the underground sea. And the Heart Tree pool at Winterfell. Yada yada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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